Totally agree with DMR. She put herself in this position.
You take your life in your hands when you try to earn a living in a country like Russia. Why you would decide to engage in the types of activity she was (even something relatively minor like weed) in a country like that is beyond me. No reasonable person would flout the law and custom in a country like that and ignore the possible consequences if caught.
Are the charges trumped up? Sure, maybe. But come on. You're opening yourself up to unpredictable complications if something goes wrong.
What's the difference between Griner and Otto Warmbier?
From what I remember, there was advice given to Otto not to go to NK. He went anyway and was arrested and ultimately comatosed/killed. Whether it was reasonable or not, you shouldn't expect to be treated fairly.
Again, you take your life in your hands going to countries that are openly hostile to the U.S. You should have no illusions or expectations of safety, privacy, security, etc.
I've had to make several business trips to China and I do everything I can to avoid prying eyes or get any unwanted attention. Doing so as a brown-skinned dude in China isn't easy. I'd be happy to never return. That said, it's very clear that you should expect you're under surveillance even in your hotel room.
Alot of the same logic is used n victim blaming. Like when that rape victim went up to Mike Tyson’s room at 3am. People said the same thing. What did she expect was going to happen? No expectation of safety. She put herself in that bad position.
I think US should do everything to bring her back but this is completely different than your rape scenario. That rape victim did zero crime, Grinner did crime (BS charge but a crime in another country nonetheless), unless the charge was manufactured than you can't say it was the same logic
I think US should do everything to bring her back but this is completely different than your rape scenario. That rape victim did zero crime, Grinner did crime (BS charge but a crime in another country nonetheless), unless the charge was manufactured than you can't say it was the same logic
I didn't say the circumstances are the same. I said that I’ve heard the same logic used before:
If the logic is:
1) You knew the dangers beforehand
2) You were warned beforehand
3) You put yourself in an unsafe situation
4) You are responsible for the situations that you knowingly put yourself in
Then I’ve heard that same logic used before.
And if you don’t like the Griner case, then look at the Otto Warmbier case. That was the logic he used...
And if committing a crime makes a difference, then look at Rodney King.
In April, they staged a prisoner swap that saw former U.S. Marine Trevor Reed traded for Russian pilot Konstantin Yaroshenko, who was serving a 20-year sentence in the United States.
I'm not fully aware of the swap. Was the 20-year sentence appropriate? _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52663 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:57 am Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
But in regards to punishment fitting the crime, how does that reconcile with letting a big-time, dangerous arms dealer go free in order to meet a goal?
After I watched an Innocence Project death row documentary not too long ago. I came to the conclusion.
An over-sentenced person imprisoned. Or, an innocent person capital punished.
That's worse. Than a guilty person going free.
And I think the architects of our judicial system agree. That's why the burden of proof is on the prosecutor (in theory).
I agree completely on the importance of emphasizing the need to protect the innocent over punishing the guilty. And I can see how that is an attractive analogy in this instance. However, our judicial system attempting to prioritize protecting the innocent doesn't come with the additional issue of encouraging the taking of innocent people as political hostages. That's where the Griner situation differs. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29382 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:17 am Post subject:
DaMuleRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
But in regards to punishment fitting the crime, how does that reconcile with letting a big-time, dangerous arms dealer go free in order to meet a goal?
After I watched an Innocence Project death row documentary not too long ago. I came to the conclusion.
An over-sentenced person imprisoned. Or, an innocent person capital punished.
That's worse. Than a guilty person going free.
And I think the architects of our judicial system agree. That's why the burden of proof is on the prosecutor (in theory).
I agree completely on the importance of emphasizing the need to protect the innocent over punishing the guilty. And I can see how that is an attractive analogy in this instance. However, our judicial system attempting to prioritize protecting the innocent doesn't come with the additional issue of encouraging the taking of innocent people as political hostages. That's where the Griner situation differs.
I agree.
If I was President. I'd overpay for Griner.
But make a public statement. Moving forward, the US won't be making these lopsided trades again. If Americans decide to travel to Russia, they are taking their own lives into their own hands. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:21 am; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67754 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:58 am Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
But in regards to punishment fitting the crime, how does that reconcile with letting a big-time, dangerous arms dealer go free in order to meet a goal?
After I watched an Innocence Project death row documentary not too long ago. I came to the conclusion.
An over-sentenced person imprisoned. Or, an innocent person capital punished.
That's worse. Than a guilty person going free.
And I think the architects of our judicial system agree. That's why the burden of proof is on the prosecutor (in theory).
I agree completely on the importance of emphasizing the need to protect the innocent over punishing the guilty. And I can see how that is an attractive analogy in this instance. However, our judicial system attempting to prioritize protecting the innocent doesn't come with the additional issue of encouraging the taking of innocent people as political hostages. That's where the Griner situation differs.
I agree.
If I was President. I'd overpay for Griner.
But make a public statement. Moving forward, the US won't be making these lopsided trades again. If Americans decide to travel to Russia, they are taking their own lives into their own hands.
That's what makes her case such a conundrum. Unfortunately, Brittney's arrest is complicated on many fronts. I want her home because she's being used. She's a political pawn.
Then I weigh the ramifications. Russia will imprison Americans, falsely accuse them, and use them as leverage to get things they want, ie. lift sanctions.
Oversiimplifing, I liken her situation to the words of Mr. Spock
Quote:
“Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” Captain Kirk answers, “Or the one.”
IMO that's a weightless caveat. If this swap comes to fruition rest assured Russia will try it again if they gain an advantage.
Moving forward I agree with Americans, other than diplomats, who travel to Russia do so at their own peril.
I don't envy President Biden's position. It's known American President's hair turns grey. Biden is already grey, he's going bald. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Legendary NBA Champion Robert Horry Makes Opinion On Brittney Griner Very Clear
Quote:
"I had a friend. He played in Russia and he had a similar situation and it’s just rough on athletes who go there and play. I know the money is good but for me, I’d be too scared to go because you never know when you’re gonna do something … but for Brittney, I just feel sorry for her," the seven-time NBA champion said.
"You go over there, you do something you love and you play for that country, you do a lot of great things for that country and all of a sudden they have a chance to punish you for something that you shouldn’t be punished for, it’s just wrong. And hopefully, I know it’s weird to say ‘appeal and get back’ but hopefully she gets back home soon."
Brittney Griner being freed in U.S.-Russia prisoner exchange
Quote:
Russia has freed WNBA star Brittney Griner in a dramatic high-level prisoner exchange, with American officials confirming to ESPN's T.J. Quinn that the U.S. is releasing notorious Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout.
The swap, made at a time of heightened tensions over the invasion of Ukraine, achieved a top goal for President Joe Biden but carried a heavy price and left behind an American jailed for nearly four years in Russia.
in exchange for the merchant of death.... _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67754 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:50 am Post subject:
I woke this morning to the good news of Brittney being freed. Kudos to President Biden for getting it done. The president is probably trying to broker a deal for the release of Paul Whelan. Welcome home Brittney. I hope you and your wife Cherelle will join efforts to free other Americans held by the Russians. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52663 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:54 am Post subject:
Black20Ice wrote:
Brittney Griner being freed in U.S.-Russia prisoner exchange
Quote:
Russia has freed WNBA star Brittney Griner in a dramatic high-level prisoner exchange, with American officials confirming to ESPN's T.J. Quinn that the U.S. is releasing notorious Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout.
The swap, made at a time of heightened tensions over the invasion of Ukraine, achieved a top goal for President Joe Biden but carried a heavy price and left behind an American jailed for nearly four years in Russia.
Whelan’s family must be pissed, and rightly so. Sorry, but Biden got played on this one . . . Embarrassing. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
“I am so glad that Brittney Griner is on her way home,” David Whelan, Paul’s twin brother, said in a statement Thursday. “As the family member of a Russian hostage, I can literally only imagine the joy she will have, being reunited with her loved ones, and in time for the holidays. There is no greater success than for a wrongful detainee to be free and for them to go home The Biden Administration made the right decision to bring Ms. Griner home, and to make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.”
_________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
“I am so glad that Brittney Griner is on her way home,” David Whelan, Paul’s twin brother, said in a statement Thursday. “As the family member of a Russian hostage, I can literally only imagine the joy she will have, being reunited with her loved ones, and in time for the holidays. There is no greater success than for a wrongful detainee to be free and for them to go home The Biden Administration made the right decision to bring Ms. Griner home, and to make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.”
Of course that's the public statement they would make (and that's exactly how that reads, a carefully scripted PR statement), to say anything else would be inappropriate.
But regardless of how they feel, it doesn't change the fact that this was a very lopsided deal in Russia's favor that sets a terrible precedent for negotiating future exchanges. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 17251 Location: In a no-ship
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:09 am Post subject:
Quote:
“Today, one of the world’s most prolific arms dealers is being held accountable for his sordid past,” said Attorney General Eric Holder. “Viktor Bout’s arms trafficking activity and support of armed conflicts have been a source of concern around the globe for decades. Today, he faces the prospect of life in prison for his efforts to sell millions of dollars worth of weapons to terrorists for use in killing Americans."
“ As the evidence at trial showed, Viktor Bout was ready to sell a weapons arsenal that would be the envy of some small countries,” said U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York Preet Bharara. “He aimed to sell those weapons to terrorists for the purpose of killing Americans. With today’s swift verdict, justice has been done and a very dangerous man will be behind bars. I would like to acknowledge the extraordinary efforts of the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) agents who investigated this case on three different continents and helped to bring Viktor Bout to justice.”
“I am so glad that Brittney Griner is on her way home,” David Whelan, Paul’s twin brother, said in a statement Thursday. “As the family member of a Russian hostage, I can literally only imagine the joy she will have, being reunited with her loved ones, and in time for the holidays. There is no greater success than for a wrongful detainee to be free and for them to go home The Biden Administration made the right decision to bring Ms. Griner home, and to make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.”
Of course that's the public statement they would make (and that's exactly how that reads, a carefully scripted PR statement), to say anything else would be inappropriate.
But regardless of how they feel, it doesn't change the fact that this was a very lopsided deal in Russia's favor that sets a terrible precedent for negotiating future exchanges.
Taking David Whelan's statement in context I'm in agreement the administration made the right decision. You take what you can and bring one American citizen home or continue negotiating and leave both in Russian custody. Biden wasn't played he took the best deal he could get.
When dealing with Russia setting precedents is a complicated undertaking. One country has humanitarian standards the other cares nothing for the people. Russia has the advantage and will use that advantage to the max.
Was the deal lopsided, yes? Did Biden get played, no? IMO Biden played the cards he was dealt and then took the best deal offered. Brittney was a political pawn. Paul Whelan is still in the mix. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
A senior U.S. official tells @NBCNews they tried everything they could to get Paul Whelan out, but “they are treating him differently. They say he is an espionage case. They said the choice was either one [Griner] or none.”
Quote:
Whelan is serving a 16-year prison sentence after being accused of spying, which the U.S. has denied. People familiar with the negotiations for his release say the Russians refused to release Whelan without getting a Russian spy in return. The U.S. insists it does not have any Russian spies in its custody, and thus no one to trade to meet the Kremlin’s demand.
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52663 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:08 pm Post subject:
Bol wrote:
An American who shouldn't have been in prison in Russia is free and coming home to her family and friends. That's good.
Sure, it's great that Griner is now free. But the circumstances that lead to it will make future negotiations much harder for others in the future. It's a tough dilemma for sure when faced with being able to bring some one home in a disadvantageous deal versus not being able to at all. That's why these things are so sticky to navigate. But the big picture always needs to be a factor. Griner is home, and that's wonderful, but it now becomes much harder to get Whelan back. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
The U.S. only had the opportunity to bring one detainee home from Russia in the recent prisoner swap, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said.
“This was not a choice of which American to bring home. The choice was one or none,” Mr. Blinken told reporters in Washington after the release of U.S. basketball star Brittney Griner.
_________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 23 Jul 2004 Posts: 12898 Location: Los Angeles
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:41 pm Post subject:
Paul Whelan's family understands the complexity of his situation. It is very different from BG and even Trevor Reed who was freed in a prisoner swap in April. BG and Trevor...did a boneheaded thing and the US overpaid heavily to get them back. Paul Whelan on the other hand....
1. Bad conduct discharge from the USMC
2. Court-martialed by the USMC
3. Had 4 ACTIVE passports
4. Caught with classified Russian documents and a stack of cash.
That sounds like the resume of a professional spy, even though the US denies it. Did 45 even try to get him home?? We know Pooty is his homie. All that being said, this is a situation that is far more complicated than a little hash, or being blacked out drunk allegedly assaulting some russian police (Reed). _________________ So glad we gave you your flowers while you were here, Kobe.
(National Security Council official lays out reasons why Griner case was different from Whelan)
Quote:
National Security Council coordinator for strategic communications John Kirby tells CNN's Kate Bolduan the reasons why Paul Whelan's case is different from Brittney Griner's.
Whelan has been in prison since 2018, no? How long has this guy they exchanged for Griner been in our custody?
I don't think there was a deal on the table for Whelan or Griner. I bet the asking price is much higher. I bet they're asking for changes in our policy toward russia/ukraine in exchange for him.
Come on people, stop going to Russia. And absolutely don't bring anything they can get you for, because they'll be looking. They 100% were holding onto her for a prisoner exchange, and will they really stop at anything to get more prisoners in the future?
This is an awful situation to be in, but this is why you don't help out these authoritarian countries no matter how much they give you. Its really frustrating and the human cost is so high. Giving up a monster to appease another monster so we can get a human being back, but I don't know how you could turn your back on her.
Joined: 23 Jul 2004 Posts: 12898 Location: Los Angeles
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:34 pm Post subject:
Theseus wrote:
Whelan has been in prison since 2018, no? How long has this guy they exchanged for Griner been in our custody?
I don't think there was a deal on the table for Whelan or Griner. I bet the asking price is much higher. I bet they're asking for changes in our policy toward russia/ukraine in exchange for him.
Come on people, stop going to Russia. And absolutely don't bring anything they can get you for, because they'll be looking. They 100% were holding onto her for a prisoner exchange, and will they really stop at anything to get more prisoners in the future?
This is an awful situation to be in, but this is why you don't help out these authoritarian countries no matter how much they give you. Its really frustrating and the human cost is so high. Giving up a monster to appease another monster so we can get a human being back, but I don't know how you could turn your back on her.
The guy that we gave up for Griner had been in our custody since 2010. He was an arms dealer. He was not serving a life sentence. His release year was 2029. He was only gonna serve 19. We got 12 out of him.
Paul Whelan is a convicted spy. I understand the US says he's innocent, but he's a convicted spy. That is a whole different category of negotiation. _________________ So glad we gave you your flowers while you were here, Kobe.
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