The Lakers are bad right now beyond Vogel, but let's get this over with. Bring on Fizdale.
Let's see what the real problem is.
Fizdale wouldn't be the answer either. Perhaps losing Kidd and Hollins was a bigger blow than expected. Maybe making sure keeping Dudz on the bench would've helped. All I know is that he's lost the team. Good guy. Great defensive coach, but not a leader. And he's been exposed offensively. Was he dealt a bad hand? Sure. But the team shouldn't be this bad. A new voice, any voice might help ala Bickerstaff.
At the very least, give this poor man an offensive guru....
Who else would it be besides Fizdale? He's a LeBron guy going back to Miami and who's out there not currently under contract? D'Antoni?
I've been championing to poach SAS and take their Pop heir-apparent in Hammon.
They/Vogel f'ked up in not bringing in an offensive assistant.
Atkinson would've been perfect. Him and Kerr are doing big things in the Bay.
Kenny A would be my 2nd choice as the new Lakers HC.
Is Hammon some offensive mastermind or is it the idea of stealing someone from the Pop tree that interests you? Feels like the later.
The greatest coach that never coached a game according to LG.
I am all for breaking the gender barriers, but she is not the one for a veteran team like ours. I’d give her a shot if we are in rebuilding mode with all young players.
Last edited by mad55557777 on Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total
I’m not even sure the point you are trying to make….I mean you list three alll star centers as an example….how is that even remotely relevant….these are three all star level players at the same position…
lakersfan8 wrote:
av3773 wrote:
Seems like a lot of folks are excusing Vogel, using the "new team" and "injury" excuse....and that's what it is an excuse....there might be some merit to that point of view if we weren't not only losing to cellar teams, but also cellar teams that have a number of key injuries of their own....while we have consistently rolled out at least 2 current nba all star talent.....a coach in any sport should be able to motivate a team to wins in that circumstance...he's not getting it done in that regard....he is also not showing he is very capable of adapting his coaching style successfully when the roster isn't constructed of a lot of good on ball defenders.....complaining about the roster is pointless, it is what it is and any good NBA coach should be able to adapt their play when they have three current nba all stars....in fact I can't even think of a team in recent memory that has one of the top players in the nba, another who is top 10ish and another who is top 15-20ish play so horribly...can anyone else come up with a team that has performed so poorly....not to mention we are getting solid play from some of the additional role players on any given night...melo, reaves, monk, tht......at least one of those players has had it clicking on a night.....so if vogel cant get it done for whatever reason he needs to go......the Lakers are not going to wait until the Summer....we have all star talent now...we are not going to wait until bron is a year older, etc....I give him a week or so...if we don't see significant improvement I think he's gone.
The bolded is certainly not true. I believe in the philosophy that you find the right coach for a team.
Also, team construction does matter. For example, if you put Shaq, Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson together on the same team, would this team perform really well? All-star talent doesn't mean anything if they don't fit on the court.
My example is a bit extreme but the point is fit does matter. Just because there are three all star players on the team, doesn’t automatically mean the team should perform well. You have to look into their individual strengths and weaknesses
I know he was key that turned the Warriors culture around. A lot of people claimed when they hired Steve Kerr that he was already inheriting a good team.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67818 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:29 am Post subject:
I was onboard with the team Rob put together, still am. I'm not getting off the bus until the wheels fall off. Gotta admit they're wobbly as hell. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
I know he was key that turned the Warriors culture around. A lot of people claimed when they hired Steve Kerr that he was already inheriting a good team.
I think he is the right guy to wake up a young squad, but I have trouble seeing him be the right guy for those veterans. What we need is a Tex Winter 2.0, someone in the background that is a genius...
Phil's triangle is outdated if it's the only thing you're using. There's already elements of the triangle in what many teams are running already. Time to leave it in the past as a primary offensive function. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Joined: 02 Jan 2012 Posts: 12237 Location: The Two One Three
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:24 pm Post subject:
2019 wrote:
Hard_Butter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Hard_Butter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
The Lakers are bad right now beyond Vogel, but let's get this over with. Bring on Fizdale.
Let's see what the real problem is.
Fizdale wouldn't be the answer either. Perhaps losing Kidd and Hollins was a bigger blow than expected. Maybe making sure keeping Dudz on the bench would've helped. All I know is that he's lost the team. Good guy. Great defensive coach, but not a leader. And he's been exposed offensively. Was he dealt a bad hand? Sure. But the team shouldn't be this bad. A new voice, any voice might help ala Bickerstaff.
At the very least, give this poor man an offensive guru....
Who else would it be besides Fizdale? He's a LeBron guy going back to Miami and who's out there not currently under contract? D'Antoni?
I've been championing to poach SAS and take their Pop heir-apparent in Hammon.
They/Vogel f'ked up in not bringing in an offensive assistant.
Atkinson would've been perfect. Him and Kerr are doing big things in the Bay.
Kenny A would be my 2nd choice as the new Lakers HC.
Is Hammon some offensive mastermind or is it the idea of stealing someone from the Pop tree that interests you? Feels like the later.
If The Spurs/Pop think that Hammon is good enough to replace arguably the greatest NBA head coach of all time, then that's good enough for me.
But again - as I've been saying - the ideal move was to pair Vogel with a proper offensive mind. I think they missed out on Atkinson. _________________ The butter's hard and the eggs are chillin' in the dark.
I find it concerning how some players go from starting to not even playing. I can see having to adjust your lineups as you learn your players, but that discrepancy scares me.
Phil's triangle is outdated if it's the only thing you're using. There's already elements of the triangle in what many teams are running already. Time to leave it in the past as a primary offensive function.
Yeah the triangle offense doesn't facilitate enough three point shooting. You can get "more desirable" shots with less complex sets these days. Plus, players don't want equal opportunity offenses. It doesn't help at contract negotiating time. But the principles of positioning, reading and reacting, and even the use of a triangle formation to give a framework to cuts and motion are all very contemporary. The Warriors are the best at using it, but other teams do it too.
Phil's triangle is outdated if it's the only thing you're using. There's already elements of the triangle in what many teams are running already. Time to leave it in the past as a primary offensive function.
Yeah the triangle offense doesn't facilitate enough three point shooting. You can get "more desirable" shots with less complex sets these days. Plus, players don't want equal opportunity offenses. It doesn't help at contract negotiating time. But the principles of positioning, reading and reacting, and even the use of a triangle formation to give a framework to cuts and motion are all very contemporary. The Warriors are the best at using it, but other teams do it too.
Yeah the Warriors implemented it best with D'Antoni's offense, which is why Gentry was so valuable to them working with Kerr in combining some triangle principles with D'Antoni's 7 seconds or less. The Warriors were a fantastic defensive team that then added actual offensive minds to the bench to coordinate and organize their offense and became a championship dynasty.
AMAZING how that works isn't it? Sure would be a shame if we had a coach that implemented a great defense and then didn't think our team needed any offensive assistants to iron things out....
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 36003 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:47 am Post subject:
Hard_Butter wrote:
2019 wrote:
Hard_Butter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Hard_Butter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
The Lakers are bad right now beyond Vogel, but let's get this over with. Bring on Fizdale.
Let's see what the real problem is.
Fizdale wouldn't be the answer either. Perhaps losing Kidd and Hollins was a bigger blow than expected. Maybe making sure keeping Dudz on the bench would've helped. All I know is that he's lost the team. Good guy. Great defensive coach, but not a leader. And he's been exposed offensively. Was he dealt a bad hand? Sure. But the team shouldn't be this bad. A new voice, any voice might help ala Bickerstaff.
At the very least, give this poor man an offensive guru....
Who else would it be besides Fizdale? He's a LeBron guy going back to Miami and who's out there not currently under contract? D'Antoni?
I've been championing to poach SAS and take their Pop heir-apparent in Hammon.
They/Vogel f'ked up in not bringing in an offensive assistant.
Atkinson would've been perfect. Him and Kerr are doing big things in the Bay.
Kenny A would be my 2nd choice as the new Lakers HC.
Is Hammon some offensive mastermind or is it the idea of stealing someone from the Pop tree that interests you? Feels like the later.
If The Spurs/Pop think that Hammon is good enough to replace arguably the greatest NBA head coach of all time, then that's good enough for me.
But again - as I've been saying - the ideal move was to pair Vogel with a proper offensive mind. I think they missed out on Atkinson.
Vogel is a pretty good defensive coach and won a ring here, but this is a bit of a stretch. I wouldn’t really put him in the GOAT discussion quite yet. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
The Lakers are bad right now beyond Vogel, but let's get this over with. Bring on Fizdale.
Let's see what the real problem is.
Fizdale wouldn't be the answer either. Perhaps losing Kidd and Hollins was a bigger blow than expected. Maybe making sure keeping Dudz on the bench would've helped. All I know is that he's lost the team. Good guy. Great defensive coach, but not a leader. And he's been exposed offensively. Was he dealt a bad hand? Sure. But the team shouldn't be this bad. A new voice, any voice might help ala Bickerstaff.
At the very least, give this poor man an offensive guru....
Who else would it be besides Fizdale? He's a LeBron guy going back to Miami and who's out there not currently under contract? D'Antoni?
I've been championing to poach SAS and take their Pop heir-apparent in Hammon.
They/Vogel f'ked up in not bringing in an offensive assistant.
Atkinson would've been perfect. Him and Kerr are doing big things in the Bay.
Kenny A would be my 2nd choice as the new Lakers HC.
Is Hammon some offensive mastermind or is it the idea of stealing someone from the Pop tree that interests you? Feels like the later.
If The Spurs/Pop think that Hammon is good enough to replace arguably the greatest NBA head coach of all time, then that's good enough for me.
But again - as I've been saying - the ideal move was to pair Vogel with a proper offensive mind. I think they missed out on Atkinson.
Vogel is a pretty good defensive coach and won a ring here, but this is a bit of a stretch. I wouldn’t really put him in the GOAT discussion quite yet.
He needs to be fired. We have no offense and we can’t stop anyone. Why are we in dog fights with bad teams? We need someone that can bring in a system, give players roles they can be successful in and also minimize their weaknesses, and inspire them to try on defense. _________________ “like I never left”
Vogel told Dwight he probably isn't gonna play tonight. I find that baffling to say to someone of Dwight's caliber in comparison to DAJ, especially on the defensive end. He is one of our strongest defenders, but Vogel said he probably isn't gonna play. Only played him because we weren't getting any energy from DAJ. Dwight didn't play the last 2 games because they were trying Lebron at the 5. My question is why is he choosing DAJ over Dwight, when Dwight is the better player, especially defensively? That says to me a lot about him as a head coach and assessing what he has, putting the right combinations together.
I'm sure he has his reasons. Dwight doesn't play well in every game. It's not just Vogel deciding unilaterally but the coaching staff who meet and game plan and discuss who they will play each game. He makes the ultimate call but everyone on the staff has input.
Vogel told Dwight he probably isn't gonna play tonight. I find that baffling to say to someone of Dwight's caliber in comparison to DAJ, especially on the defensive end. He is one of our strongest defenders, but Vogel said he probably isn't gonna play. Only played him because we weren't getting any energy from DAJ. Dwight didn't play the last 2 games because they were trying Lebron at the 5. My question is why is he choosing DAJ over Dwight, when Dwight is the better player, especially defensively? That says to me a lot about him as a head coach and assessing what he has, putting the right combinations together.
Noooo, he just wakes up and his left pinkie tells him to not play Dwight, so he doesn't play him.
He has his reasons to start DAJ over Dwight? By the numbers or even the eye test, Dwight is better than DAJ in the essential categories for a center, especially defense and rim protecting. Better tandem along side AD. Vogel is a defensive coach, but plays DAJ over a better defender in Dwight. This isn't Javale and Dwight situation, which I assume is why he is starting DAJ over Dwight. Javale provided energy, athleticism, rim protecting and defensive intensity on the starting unit and Dwight was the spark off the bench. Collectively, they worked together as a tandem. It is not the same with DAJ. He doesn't provide what Javele provides, so starting him, puts us at a disadvantage, where as Dwight would put us more at an advantage than DAJ.
It's not just Dwight, Vogel has been known to not have good rotations. He doesn't know how to assess what combinations could work and what doesn't. He doesn't know how to get the best out of what he has, and does things when he feels he has no other choice and it ends up working. Things that the armchair coaches have BEEN saying, and baffled that he couldn't see it as a head coach. Kent Bazemore provided nothing for 5 games. I mean nothing. It took him a while and losing just to say..... this isn't working, and eventually switched it up. In fact, Austin Reaves was providing more and he would play Baze over Reaves. I assume because he is a rookie, so he didn't really trust him, with some politics. I understand about being patient and allowing things to work itself out, but then, one could watch the game and say "this doesn't work, this is working, this may work, lets try it," especially as a head coach. (I could keep going with his decisions, but you get the picture).
His game plan, what it looks like is he wants to space out the talent and have starting potential on bench to compete against the 2nd unit. Even if that means we get off to a slow start because to him, it seems balanced. If the 1st unit doesn't get it done, the 2nd unit could keep us afloat and then we will end the game with whoever is doing well out of the 1st and 2nd unit with Russ, Bron and AD, who are gonna close out the game regardless. Rather than we possibly get off to a strong start, with a strong 1st unit, out of the players we have and allow them to provide the energy; let the head guide the tail. He wants to mirror the 2019/20 squad - Melo is Kuz, DAJ is "Javele," Ariza when he returns is Danny Green. He wanted Bazemore to be KCP, Reaves is AC, Dwight and Rondo came off the bench, Avery started, etc... not understanding this is a different team, different makeup, so different combinations are a matter.
It's altering now, but let's hope he sees what Dwight provided as a starter over what DAJ provides and it's not another Kent Bazemore situation.
Last edited by Outspoken on Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:52 am; edited 2 times in total
Still want to fire Vogel? One of the best coaches around IMO because defense wins championships and Vogel is a defense guru.
I think it depends on the next couple of games and when we play against playoff contending teams. Beating the kings is nothing to get really happy about, but losing to them is some thing to get bent out of shape about.
Vogel told Dwight he probably isn't gonna play tonight. I find that baffling to say to someone of Dwight's caliber in comparison to DAJ, especially on the defensive end. He is one of our strongest defenders, but Vogel said he probably isn't gonna play. Only played him because we weren't getting any energy from DAJ. Dwight didn't play the last 2 games because they were trying Lebron at the 5. My question is why is he choosing DAJ over Dwight, when Dwight is the better player, especially defensively? That says to me a lot about him as a head coach and assessing what he has, putting the right combinations together.
Noooo, he just wakes up and his left pinkie tells him to not play Dwight, so he doesn't play him.
Dwight Howard said Frank Vogel's main message of halftime was: "'Stop talking about winning a championship, and not giving a correct effort.' And he's right." Said the Lakers showed way more energy in the second half
Frank had enough of the clown antics and sense of entitlement
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