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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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2019 wrote: |
I've never understood this concept of empty stats. Sounds silly to me. |
Most of the time, "empty stats" is a meaningless cliche that sports fans use to discount the accomplishments of a player they don't like.
There's not even any agreement of what "empty stats" means -- over the years, I've seen at least four or wide widely disparate explanations of what this cliche means.
Certainly, there are players whose statistical contributions to a team are better than their contribution on the court. But I rarely see that really come into play when a fan dismisses a guy for having "empty stats" -- 99% of the time this is simply about the emotions the fan feels about the player. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144492 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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hype wrote: | LGFan wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | I'm not at level 10 panic (I'm more of a 4/10 right now), but this needs to turn around quickly or else Vogel's head will roll (fairly or not). |
My panic level is actually down to about a 2. Detroit is a lousy team, but we showed some heart at last. We could have just given up and blamed the officials or something. There’s still hope. We may be starting to figure it out.
The biggest concern is Lebron’s decline. Hollinger had a brutal article about this in The Athletic, citing some of the same stats I’ve cited. If Lebron is just a really good player, but not an elite player, our ceiling is lower than we hoped. But Lebron has a way of bouncing back. |
Hollinger
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For real, it's beyond pointless to try and say anything we've seen from Lebron is a clear indication he's on a decline this season. This is nothing new for Bron to start the year slow and work himself into the Season. I get injury concerns are at a much higher level obviously with his age and considering the last 3 or so seasons. I also am willing to bet he'll look like a clear top 5-10 player if healthy at the end of this season and into the Playoffs. Him remaining healthy is a big concern though from here on out and the only thing stopping him from still being a top player still at seasons end imo. |
He has been on decline the past several seasons, it’s very common as players age. He is far from done but needs more help now than he ever did. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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DrDent Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2016 Posts: 12975
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | 2019 wrote: |
I've never understood this concept of empty stats. Sounds silly to me. |
Most of the time, "empty stats" is a meaningless cliche that sports fans use to discount the accomplishments of a player they don't like.
There's not even any agreement of what "empty stats" means -- over the years, I've seen at least four or wide widely disparate explanations of what this cliche means.
Certainly, there are players whose statistical contributions to a team are better than their contribution on the court. But I rarely see that really come into play when a fan dismisses a guy for having "empty stats" -- 99% of the time this is simply about the emotions the fan feels about the player. |
I never dug into this too deeply Active, but one possible example would be some Yankee fans I knew who claimed A-Rod would get such stats. For example, Yankees up, say 7-1 in the 8th, and he hits a grand slam so gets 4 rbis in the game (did not make a difference in the end as they won 11-1). But if they were down 7-3 he would not hit such a homerun.
That is at least what he was accused of by those fans I knew. Then again, could just be the very example you are talking of. I suppose for the one game he hits such a homerun while up 7-1, I could see myself buying into an "empty stat" position. Albeit, who knows if those "empty" 4 runs ended up burying the other team into not even trying a come back. _________________ "One thing I admire about Kuzma is his unwavering confidence. He truly has no idea that he’s not as good as he thinks." - Killer_Z |
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miggz23 Star Player
Joined: 29 Nov 2018 Posts: 6959
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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DrDent wrote: | activeverb wrote: | 2019 wrote: |
I've never understood this concept of empty stats. Sounds silly to me. |
Most of the time, "empty stats" is a meaningless cliche that sports fans use to discount the accomplishments of a player they don't like.
There's not even any agreement of what "empty stats" means -- over the years, I've seen at least four or wide widely disparate explanations of what this cliche means.
Certainly, there are players whose statistical contributions to a team are better than their contribution on the court. But I rarely see that really come into play when a fan dismisses a guy for having "empty stats" -- 99% of the time this is simply about the emotions the fan feels about the player. |
I never dug into this too deeply Active, but one possible example would be some Yankee fans I knew who claimed A-Rod would get such stats. For example, Yankees up, say 7-1 in the 8th, and he hits a grand slam so gets 4 rbis in the game (did not make a difference in the end as they won 11-1). But if they were down 7-3 he would not hit such a homerun.
That is at least what he was accused of by those fans I knew. Then again, could just be the very example you are talking of. I suppose for the one game he hits such a homerun while up 7-1, I could see myself buying into an "empty stat" position. Albeit, who knows if those "empty" 4 runs ended up burying the other team into not even trying a come back. |
That sound more like STAT PADDING... Kind of like when you're blowing out a team late in the 4th quarter and you still have your star player in there scoring points.
When I hear empty stats... Usually it someone trying to say "Yea he put up all those points but they lost." |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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DrDent wrote: | I never dug into this too deeply Active, but one possible example would be some Yankee fans I knew who claimed A-Rod would get such stats. For example, Yankees up, say 7-1 in the 8th, and he hits a grand slam so gets 4 rbis in the game (did not make a difference in the end as they won 11-1). But if they were down 7-3 he would not hit such a homerun. |
If someone can actually document that with actual statistics, OK, but I have a hard time believing that scenario is true. Sounds like something someone just made up or assumed because they disliked A-Rod.
And, if it is something someone made up or assumed, it would actually be a proof point for my position about empty stats. |
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DrDent Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2016 Posts: 12975
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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miggz23 wrote: | DrDent wrote: | activeverb wrote: | 2019 wrote: |
I've never understood this concept of empty stats. Sounds silly to me. |
Most of the time, "empty stats" is a meaningless cliche that sports fans use to discount the accomplishments of a player they don't like.
There's not even any agreement of what "empty stats" means -- over the years, I've seen at least four or wide widely disparate explanations of what this cliche means.
Certainly, there are players whose statistical contributions to a team are better than their contribution on the court. But I rarely see that really come into play when a fan dismisses a guy for having "empty stats" -- 99% of the time this is simply about the emotions the fan feels about the player. |
I never dug into this too deeply Active, but one possible example would be some Yankee fans I knew who claimed A-Rod would get such stats. For example, Yankees up, say 7-1 in the 8th, and he hits a grand slam so gets 4 rbis in the game (did not make a difference in the end as they won 11-1). But if they were down 7-3 he would not hit such a homerun.
That is at least what he was accused of by those fans I knew. Then again, could just be the very example you are talking of. I suppose for the one game he hits such a homerun while up 7-1, I could see myself buying into an "empty stat" position. Albeit, who knows if those "empty" 4 runs ended up burying the other team into not even trying a come back. |
That sound more like STAT PADDING... Kind of like when you're blowing out a team late in the 4th quarter and you still have your star player in there scoring points.
When I hear empty stats... Usually it someone trying to say "Yea he put up all those points but they lost." |
Could it be that stat padding is a form of "empty stats?" _________________ "One thing I admire about Kuzma is his unwavering confidence. He truly has no idea that he’s not as good as he thinks." - Killer_Z |
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MikeTrout Star Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2020 Posts: 1626
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | DrDent wrote: | I never dug into this too deeply Active, but one possible example would be some Yankee fans I knew who claimed A-Rod would get such stats. For example, Yankees up, say 7-1 in the 8th, and he hits a grand slam so gets 4 rbis in the game (did not make a difference in the end as they won 11-1). But if they were down 7-3 he would not hit such a homerun. |
If someone can actually document that with actual statistics, OK, but I have a hard time believing that scenario is true. Sounds like something someone just made up or assumed because they disliked A-Rod.
And, if it is something someone made up or assumed, it would actually be a proof point for my position about empty stats. |
Baseball has WPA, which would reflect this sort of thing, but I don't think basketball has an equivalent stat |
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matigol Starting Rotation
Joined: 18 Oct 2012 Posts: 664
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Stats can be an indication if someone is a good player. Nothing more nothing less
For me, Montrezl is the opposite of Danny Green. Danny Green helps a team to win games, even if he's 0-7 from 3pt line with 0 pts 1 rb and no steals or blocks.
At the same time Trezz will give you 20/10 and lots of energy but you lose.
I don't want him back, even if I like his heart and attitude _________________ White guy to white guy alley oop |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58388
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:04 am Post subject: |
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I think the decline in Bron is based on his increase in 3 point shooting instead of rim attacking. I was actually hoping for this when he signed as a Laker. No way I felt he could be an all-star/superstar in year 4 of the deal if all he did was bulldoze his way into the rim Westbrook style, but in reality, if he has a good season, he will be proving myself wrong in being able to last as a superstar all the way until the end of the first contract he signed with LA.
What's going on in this "decline" is we are seeing him shift from attacking the paint, to becoming more and more of an outside shooter and a post game guy. Is this really different from MJ or Kobe? The second 3 pete for MJ, MJ was mostly in the post or shooting outside shots and developed a 3 pointer. In that era, shooting jumpers from mid-range was like shooting 3 pointers now. It was a trend. The 3 ball was a weapon, but not anything like it is now. The green light on the 3 was not there. So MJ and Kobe's version of initial decline, was to get more jumpshooting heavy, more post ups, and far less attacking off the dribble. Lebron is doing the same thing. He's attacking way less of the dribble.
The last significant playoffs he played healthy (2020 bubble) he was quite good at reverting to a player that attacked the D and was more in the paint than outside (5.7 per game three pointers).
The concern I have is that he may soon hit that next decline. The decline that we saw in Kobe post-injury in 2013. The decline we saw in MJ when he tried to play for Washington in 2001-2003. I don't want to see that Lebron in a Laker jersey. I thought we would for sure see that version when he signed the deal in 2018-2022. If we can avoid it by 2023. I think we made out really well with signing Lebron. Always knew we had him past his athletic prime. The key is to avoid that second decline. The one where the guy is still in the role of a franchse player but no longer effective in it. I don't think Bron has reached that based on last year. Lets see what he brings this year. |
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Palin Star Player
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 1816
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:15 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | I think the decline in Bron is based on his increase in 3 point shooting instead of rim attacking. I was actually hoping for this when he signed as a Laker. No way I felt he could be an all-star/superstar in year 4 of the deal if all he did was bulldoze his way into the rim Westbrook style, but in reality, if he has a good season, he will be proving myself wrong in being able to last as a superstar all the way until the end of the first contract he signed with LA.
What's going on in this "decline" is we are seeing him shift from attacking the paint, to becoming more and more of an outside shooter and a post game guy. Is this really different from MJ or Kobe? The second 3 pete for MJ, MJ was mostly in the post or shooting outside shots and developed a 3 pointer. In that era, shooting jumpers from mid-range was like shooting 3 pointers now. It was a trend. The 3 ball was a weapon, but not anything like it is now. The green light on the 3 was not there. So MJ and Kobe's version of initial decline, was to get more jumpshooting heavy, more post ups, and far less attacking off the dribble. Lebron is doing the same thing. He's attacking way less of the dribble.
The last significant playoffs he played healthy (2020 bubble) he was quite good at reverting to a player that attacked the D and was more in the paint than outside (5.7 per game three pointers).
The concern I have is that he may soon hit that next decline. The decline that we saw in Kobe post-injury in 2013. The decline we saw in MJ when he tried to play for Washington in 2001-2003. I don't want to see that Lebron in a Laker jersey. I thought we would for sure see that version when he signed the deal in 2018-2022. If we can avoid it by 2023. I think we made out really well with signing Lebron. Always knew we had him past his athletic prime. The key is to avoid that second decline. The one where the guy is still in the role of a franchse player but no longer effective in it. I don't think Bron has reached that based on last year. Lets see what he brings this year. |
I would take that LeBron with pay cut. Thats what i wonder what we gonna do in summer 2023. Right now we only have AD and THT with player option beyond 2023. With farther time and injuries catching up LeBron can't be a max player anymore. We can't make same mistake like we did with Kobe. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:09 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | What's going on in this "decline" is we are seeing him shift from attacking the paint, to becoming more and more of an outside shooter and a post game guy. Is this really different from MJ or Kobe? |
MJ and Kobe declined. You're just saying the same thing. The point is that a lot of people expect Lebron to flip a switch and go back to being prime Lebron. In fact, Lebron has been gradually shifting to a three-point shooter over the last five years. He's a good enough three-point shooter that he has been able to maintain himself as a superstar. But he is not the force of nature that we saw in his prime. Again, a lot of people expect him to flip a switch when the playoffs arrive and become a force of nature again. We'll see, but there is going to come a point where he just can't do that anymore. When I watch Lebron, I see a guy who is no longer convinced of his own invincibility. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Palin wrote: | I would take that LeBron with pay cut. Thats what i wonder what we gonna do in summer 2023. Right now we only have AD and THT with player option beyond 2023. With farther time and injuries catching up LeBron can't be a max player anymore. We can't make same mistake like we did with Kobe. |
If he's healthy and wants another year or two, I expect that we'll give it to him without a pay cut, or at least without a substantial pay cut. But it's not a sure thing that he will want another year. I guess it may depend on how close he has gotten to Kareem's record. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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Outspoken Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 Posts: 8467
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:50 am Post subject: |
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miggz23 wrote: | DrDent wrote: | activeverb wrote: | 2019 wrote: |
I've never understood this concept of empty stats. Sounds silly to me. |
Most of the time, "empty stats" is a meaningless cliche that sports fans use to discount the accomplishments of a player they don't like.
There's not even any agreement of what "empty stats" means -- over the years, I've seen at least four or wide widely disparate explanations of what this cliche means.
Certainly, there are players whose statistical contributions to a team are better than their contribution on the court. But I rarely see that really come into play when a fan dismisses a guy for having "empty stats" -- 99% of the time this is simply about the emotions the fan feels about the player. |
I never dug into this too deeply Active, but one possible example would be some Yankee fans I knew who claimed A-Rod would get such stats. For example, Yankees up, say 7-1 in the 8th, and he hits a grand slam so gets 4 rbis in the game (did not make a difference in the end as they won 11-1). But if they were down 7-3 he would not hit such a homerun.
That is at least what he was accused of by those fans I knew. Then again, could just be the very example you are talking of. I suppose for the one game he hits such a homerun while up 7-1, I could see myself buying into an "empty stat" position. Albeit, who knows if those "empty" 4 runs ended up burying the other team into not even trying a come back. |
That sound more like STAT PADDING... Kind of like when you're blowing out a team late in the 4th quarter and you still have your star player in there scoring points.
When I hear empty stats... Usually it someone trying to say "Yea he put up all those points but they lost." |
Empty stats are non impactful stats that don't change the dynamic of the game. The players team doesn't feed off the stats and it doesn't alter the opposing teams defense or their game plan because they have to adjust to the player. You get nothing out of the stats; hence "empty."
Last edited by Outspoken on Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kfkilla Star Player
Joined: 31 Jul 2002 Posts: 4353
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Palin wrote: | I would take that LeBron with pay cut. Thats what i wonder what we gonna do in summer 2023. Right now we only have AD and THT with player option beyond 2023. With farther time and injuries catching up LeBron can't be a max player anymore. We can't make same mistake like we did with Kobe. |
If he's healthy and wants another year or two, I expect that we'll give it to him without a pay cut, or at least without a substantial pay cut. But it's not a sure thing that he will want another year. I guess it may depend on how close he has gotten to Kareem's record. |
Giving Kobe whatever he wanted is the reason we got Lebron and AD in the first place. Remember when the Celtics wanted AD and had a better hand than us?! AD didn’t want the Celtics because of how they did IT and heir other stars. There is a human aspect to this that we cannot ignore. We are the Lakers. Lebron came here when we were literally the laugh stock of the NBA and raised us from the depths and won us a championship. You give him what he wants without any hesitation. I doubt he’ll want to play past breaking Kareem’s record anyway. Hopefully we’ll get Bronnie in here to take over as a result of showing him loyalty. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:20 am Post subject: |
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kfkilla wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | If he's healthy and wants another year or two, I expect that we'll give it to him without a pay cut, or at least without a substantial pay cut. But it's not a sure thing that he will want another year. I guess it may depend on how close he has gotten to Kareem's record. |
Giving Kobe whatever he wanted is the reason we got Lebron and AD in the first place. Remember when the Celtics wanted AD and had a better hand than us?! AD didn’t want the Celtics because of how they did IT and heir other stars. There is a human aspect to this that we cannot ignore. We are the Lakers. Lebron came here when we were literally the laugh stock of the NBA and raised us from the depths and won us a championship. You give him what he wants without any hesitation. I doubt he’ll want to play past breaking Kareem’s record anyway. Hopefully we’ll get Bronnie in here to take over as a result of showing him loyalty. |
I'm skeptical about that narrative. I find it hard to believe that the deciding factor for Anthony Davis was the way that the Celtics supposedly mistreated Isaiah Thomas. Yes, his father blabbed something about that, but he also said that he was just speaking for himself and not his son. The decisive factor for Davis was that Lebron recruited him and sold him on the Lakers. I find it far-fetched that Kobe's last contract had anything to do with it. In any event, if we have a reputation for giving bad contracts to aging players, I'm not sure that's such a good thing.
As for Bronny, who cares? He might turn out to be an NBA player one day, or he might turn out to be like Michael Jordan's son. Either way, I haven't seen anything indicating that he's likely to be a star. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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vasashi17+ Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2019 Posts: 5650
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bluehill Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 Jul 2009 Posts: 892
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | kfkilla wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | If he's healthy and wants another year or two, I expect that we'll give it to him without a pay cut, or at least without a substantial pay cut. But it's not a sure thing that he will want another year. I guess it may depend on how close he has gotten to Kareem's record. |
Giving Kobe whatever he wanted is the reason we got Lebron and AD in the first place. Remember when the Celtics wanted AD and had a better hand than us?! AD didn’t want the Celtics because of how they did IT and heir other stars. There is a human aspect to this that we cannot ignore. We are the Lakers. Lebron came here when we were literally the laugh stock of the NBA and raised us from the depths and won us a championship. You give him what he wants without any hesitation. I doubt he’ll want to play past breaking Kareem’s record anyway. Hopefully we’ll get Bronnie in here to take over as a result of showing him loyalty. |
I'm skeptical about that narrative. I find it hard to believe that the deciding factor for Anthony Davis was the way that the Celtics supposedly mistreated Isaiah Thomas. Yes, his father blabbed something about that, but he also said that he was just speaking for himself and not his son. The decisive factor for Davis was that Lebron recruited him and sold him on the Lakers. I find it far-fetched that Kobe's last contract had anything to do with it. In any event, if we have a reputation for giving bad contracts to aging players, I'm not sure that's such a good thing.
As for Bronny, who cares? He might turn out to be an NBA player one day, or he might turn out to be like Michael Jordan's son. Either way, I haven't seen anything indicating that he's likely to be a star. |
I think there are a couple of potential issues if we sign LeBron to another large deal. There's the obvious cap space hit, but the other challenge could be attracting younger UFAs in their prime.
I have vague recollections of the Lakers trying to pair Kobe with younger LeBron and Carmelo and others and they turned us down. I don't know the reasons, but one possible explanation is that they wanted to be the lead dog rather than Kobe's sidekick. I think LeBron could have signed with the Lakers a couple of times but it didn't happen until Kobe retired. |
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vasashi17+ Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2019 Posts: 5650
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Simmons to Sac???
Quote: | The Athletic NBA
@TheAthleticNBA
Is De’Aaron Fox still the right guy to build around in Sacramento?
It’s not looking that way at the moment, @sam_amick writes.
“And if things don’t improve anytime soon, it’ll be interesting to see the ripple effect on the roster.”
More: https://bit.ly/3oRaa7K
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_________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
#GetFamiliar by CLICKING HERE! |
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Inspector Gadget Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016 Posts: 46784
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:41 am Post subject: |
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We might still have a chance to get Buddy Hield if the Kings decide to have a fire sale. |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23797
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:42 am Post subject: |
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vasashi17+ wrote: | Simmons to Sac???
Quote: | The Athletic NBA
@TheAthleticNBA
Is De’Aaron Fox still the right guy to build around in Sacramento?
It’s not looking that way at the moment, @sam_amick writes.
“And if things don’t improve anytime soon, it’ll be interesting to see the ripple effect on the roster.”
More: https://bit.ly/3oRaa7K
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Probably makes the most sense. Just need Morey to stop thinking he’s going to fleece the entire league because of his obsession to be viewed as a genius. |
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Outspoken Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 Posts: 8467
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Inspector Gadget wrote: | We might still have a chance to get Buddy Hield if the Kings decide to have a fire sale. |
What's the fascination with Buddy hield? |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Inspector Gadget wrote: | We might still have a chance to get Buddy Hield if the Kings decide to have a fire sale. |
We have no assets to match salaries. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:56 am Post subject: |
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bluehill wrote: | I think there are a couple of potential issues if we sign LeBron to another large deal. There's the obvious cap space hit, but the other challenge could be attracting younger UFAs in their prime.
I have vague recollections of the Lakers trying to pair Kobe with younger LeBron and Carmelo and others and they turned us down. I don't know the reasons, but one possible explanation is that they wanted to be the lead dog rather than Kobe's sidekick. I think LeBron could have signed with the Lakers a couple of times but it didn't happen until Kobe retired. |
That makes sense only if we have a younger UFA to target. At least in 2023, the only bona fide star who could be a free agent is Jokic. I doubt that he is a realistic target. As best I can tell, it may be a few years before we see a truly premium player hit the open market. Other people study this kind of thing more rigorously than I do, so I could be wrong. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29454 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | The Athletic NBA
@TheAthleticNBA
Is De’Aaron Fox still the right guy to build around in Sacramento?
It’s not looking that way at the moment, @sam_amick writes.
“And if things don’t improve anytime soon, it’ll be interesting to see the ripple effect on the roster.”
More: https://bit.ly/3oRaa7K
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Reminds me of the stuff written when Luke coached our young guys. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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cthroatgtr Star Player
Joined: 21 Aug 2005 Posts: 1375
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Maybe Tristan Thompson can get himself released in Sacto, a better fit than DJ. |
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