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ChefLinda Moderator
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Moving this post from Controversial Opinions thread:
DaMuleRules wrote: | slavavov wrote: | Being Jewish, there's that side of me that says F the Palenstinians, Arabs and Iranians and let's kill 'em all, but I know that in the real world we have to find a way to get along with them as much as possible. At the same time, it seems like the Israelis are usually or always less to blame than the Arabs in these conflicts.
Then again, I'm not an expert on the Middle East and I don't even care much about foreign policy. |
slavavov wrote: |
He seems like too much of a war hawk, at least as far as I can tell as someone who doesn't pay a ton of attention to the Middle East.
Israel damn well has the right to defend itself, but at the same time they (and we as well) need to be careful to not incite the Arabs and Iranians. It's such a fine line to walk. |
Israel does indeed have the right to protect itself. Unfortunately, over the years the Israeli government and the IDF have used their might and international political clout to engage in acts and tactics that far surpass self-defense. Aggressively targeting civilian infrastructure with a disregard for innocent civilian life as they frequently do is not self-defense, and as has been pointed out by many in the international community and even within Israel itself, but actually enters the realm of war crimes. |
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ChefLinda Moderator
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Mod Notes regarding discussion of Israel/Hamas/Gaza conflict:
1) If people can discuss the issue without referencing religion, race or national stereotypes, then we can give it a go.
2) slavavov's post above was addressed by the mods in the Controversial Opinions thread. Please see that thread regarding inappropriate nature of comments. |
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kikanga Retired Number
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for informing me on what got the 1st political thread shut down in the first place CL. I had no idea. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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kikanga Retired Number
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 8:42 am Post subject: |
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I've recently been doing alot of reading on the Israel v. Palestine conflict.
Here are a couple things I've seen.
Quote: | The Associated Press pushes back on Israel's claim about Gaza media building, saying they had 'no indication Hamas was in the building' |
Business Insider
Quote: | The White House @WhiteHouse -United States government organization
Today the President spoke with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, reaffirmed his strong support for Israel’s right to defend itself against rocket attacks from Hamas and other terrorist groups in Gaza, and condemned these indiscriminate attacks against Israel. |
Twitter
My biggest takeaways have been:
-Netanyahu needs to go. More than half of Israel's legislative branch doesn't want him in power. But he still is because the anti-Netanyahu people can't/won't fully consolidate. So Netanyahu might still keep his position indefinitely as longest tenured PM in Israel's history. And Netanyahu thinks his aggressive Palestinian stance helps his political future.
- I'm always weary of governments ran by 1 person for too long. Not to mention the different ways Netanyahu treated Obama v. Trump and the GOP.
-In terms of the US's relationship with Israel right now. That seems like a very complicated relationship. I do know we sell Israel billions of dollars worth of military equipment every year. Some say it's laundering tax dollars and that it's a jobs program for Americans. I'm not sure if that's a fair description. Need to read more on that.
-Finally, I think technology is a major X factor for this recent news coverage. Israelis and Palestinians are recording what is happening and either uploading it online themselves or getting it to news organizations. Either way millions can see what is happening same day, heck even same hour. That was not the case in many past Israeli/Palestinian skirmishes. And as we've seen in the BLM movement. The general public seeing something with their 2 eyes is a game changer. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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ChefLinda Moderator
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 8:48 am Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | Thanks for informing me on what got the 1st political thread shut down in the first place CL. I had no idea. |
Actually it got shut down twice. The first incidence was for this topic. The second time was in the aftermath of the 2016 election. |
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DaMuleRules Retired Number
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 8:57 am Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: |
Quote: | The Associated Press pushes back on Israel's claim about Gaza media building, saying they had 'no indication Hamas was in the building' |
Business Insider. |
There was one reason and one reason only for destroying that building—to limit the international media's ability to report on activities in the region.
Why would Israeli forces feel the need to do that if they truly believed their activities in the region were 100% legitimate? _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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jodeke Retired Number
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Politics & Religion are subjects difficult to discuss. It's almost impossible to discuss them with guidelines. I applaud the mods for their handling of both subjects.
I've never understood the Israeli, US relationship. Is it strategic, monetary, what? I ask this question in earnest.
[Inappropriate reference deleted. -CL]
My apologies for the inappropriate reference. It was referencing the 6-day war. If it struck any nerves, again, I apologize.
That being said. The question I asked I'd really like someone to answer. I really don't understand the relationship. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Sun May 16, 2021 11:23 am; edited 4 times in total |
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DaMuleRules Retired Number
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:06 am Post subject: |
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jodeke wrote: | Politics & Religion are subjects difficult to discuss. It's almost impossible to discuss them with guidelines. I applaud the mods for their handling of both subjects.
I've never understood the Israeli, US relationship. Is it strategic, monetary, what? I ask this question in earnest.
Dick Gregory long ago described what a war between Isreal and Palestine would be like. [comment deleted - CL] |
As for that quote, that's exactly the kind of language CL has warned about. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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ChefLinda Moderator
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:11 am Post subject: |
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DaMuleRules wrote: | kikanga wrote: |
Quote: | The Associated Press pushes back on Israel's claim about Gaza media building, saying they had 'no indication Hamas was in the building' |
Business Insider. |
There was one reason and one reason only for destroying that building—to limit the international media's ability to report on activities in the region.
Why would Israeli forces feel the need to do that if they truly believed their activities in the region were 100% legitimate? |
Netanyahu is a corrupt wannabe authoritarian who has much in common with Trump, including trying to hinder the press. And that's putting it mildly. |
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Omar Little Moderator
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:18 am Post subject: |
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For further background, the AP had contradicted the IDF propaganda about ground incursions, getting sourced information that they weren’t happening. And within hours the building housing them and Al Jazeera is leveled. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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kikanga Retired Number
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | For further background, the AP had contradicted the IDF propaganda about ground incursions, getting sourced information that they weren’t happening. And within hours the building housing them and Al Jazeera is leveled. |
I think some people in the West are distrustful of Al Jazeera's reporting because the news outlet has an Arabic name. People assume (warranted or not) that they are biased.
But when the AP is reporting this stuff. Netanyahu is going to have a difficult time building his own narrative independent from the truth. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Netanyahoo needs to stop killing civilians and sporting that ridiculous comb-over.
War crimes are war crimes. |
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Halflife Franchise Player
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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I get the conflict but am not educated on the nuance of it but from an outsiders pov it just seems like Israel is a bully and is way too heavy handed. Do the Palestinians even have an army?
I know it’s not our conflict and do understand our commitment to Israel but this is not good and we should be more vocal than a press brief. |
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Halflife wrote: | I get the conflict but am not educated on the nuance of it but from an outsiders pov it just seems like Israel is a bully and is way too heavy handed. Do the Palestinians even have an army?
I know it’s not our conflict and do understand our commitment to Israel but this is not good and we should be more vocal than a press brief. |
Please enlighten me. It's something I do not understand. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Halflife Franchise Player
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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jodeke wrote: | Halflife wrote: | I get the conflict but am not educated on the nuance of it but from an outsiders pov it just seems like Israel is a bully and is way too heavy handed. Do the Palestinians even have an army?
I know it’s not our conflict and do understand our commitment to Israel but this is not good and we should be more vocal than a press brief. |
Please enlighten me. It's something I do not understand. |
Look I don’t know about the nuances of the conflict I just know we look the other way anytime Israel does something or we get involved when they need help. I know there’s more, we give them A ton of money. I’m sure they reciprocate with allowing us use of military airspace etc. idk. I just feel....again not knowing anything that the timing and force they are using is during the time their supposedly corrupt leader is losing an election. |
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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As soon as Drumpf started buddying up to Netanyahoo, I knew the US relationship with Israel had seen much better days.
Drumpf is out, now Netanyahoo has to go, too...is my hope for Israel.
The US is having private talks with Israel to address some of the atrocities the rest of us are seeing. There is more going on than just what has been reported by the press. |
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Halflife wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Halflife wrote: | I get the conflict but am not educated on the nuance of it but from an outsiders pov it just seems like Israel is a bully and is way too heavy handed. Do the Palestinians even have an army?
I know it’s not our conflict and do understand our commitment to Israel but this is not good and we should be more vocal than a press brief. |
Please enlighten me. It's something I do not understand. |
Look I don’t know about the nuances of the conflict I just know we look the other way anytime Israel does something or we get involved when they need help. I know there’s more, we give them A ton of money. I’m sure they reciprocate with allowing us use of military airspace etc. idk. I just feel....again not knowing anything that the timing and force they are using is during the time their supposedly corrupt leader is losing an election. |
$3.8B isn't nothing, but it's not "a ton" given the scale of U.S. GDP/annual budget.
I think it's one thing to use military aid "vouchers" as a carrot/stick with the Israeli government, but abandoning Israel altogether seems like it could further accelerate their descent into theocratic fascism, which isn't good given the country's growing radical (genocidal) right and nuclear arsenal. Idk. _________________ Under New Management |
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | For adkindo in case he wants to learn something and stop the cycle of lurking until a bad take bubbles up and he has to try and own the libs, after which a sound beating and a return to lurking ensues:
the both sides do it myth |
FernieBee wrote: | * crickets *
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No surprise there.
Adkindo has never been interested in (or capable of) fact-based, intellectually honest discussion. That's why he resorts to the cowardice of the hit and run lurker game. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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jonnybravo wrote: | https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/colorado-man-suspected-wife-s-death-cast-ballot-trump-her-n1267416
Man is suspected of killing wife and placing a vote under her name. Without even reading the article, who do you think he voted for?
These guys are truly a f'en pariah on this country. |
I have heard now of three voter fraud cases in 2020 election.
One man voted and then voted absentee using his dead mother's name and info and also signed a letter saying she was still alive.
One woman voted then went back to vote again because she was worried her first one would be "stolen".
Third is this creep who killed his wife and then voted in her name as well as his own.
All voted for the same candidate. _________________ “There is always light if only we're brave enough to see it, if only we're brave enough to be it.” --Amanda Gorman |
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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I made what was seen by CL as an inappropriate comment re: the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and I apologize for that. That's the overly visceral side of me that usually doesn't win out.
Like I also said, both sides need to find some way to make peace with each other, even if the Arab/Iranian side is inextricably linked with terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. A two-state solution sounds like the only thing that could work.
And as others have alluded to, it may help if Netanyahu leaves and is replaced by someone more even-keeled. _________________ Lakers 49ers Chargers Dodgers |
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slavavov Star Player
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Halflife wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Halflife wrote: | I get the conflict but am not educated on the nuance of it but from an outsiders pov it just seems like Israel is a bully and is way too heavy handed. Do the Palestinians even have an army?
I know it’s not our conflict and do understand our commitment to Israel but this is not good and we should be more vocal than a press brief. |
Please enlighten me. It's something I do not understand. |
Look I don’t know about the nuances of the conflict I just know we look the other way anytime Israel does something or we get involved when they need help. I know there’s more, we give them A ton of money. I’m sure they reciprocate with allowing us use of military airspace etc. idk. I just feel....again not knowing anything that the timing and force they are using is during the time their supposedly corrupt leader is losing an election. |
$3.8B isn't nothing, but it's not "a ton" given the scale of U.S. GDP/annual budget.
I think it's one thing to use military aid "vouchers" as a carrot/stick with the Israeli government, but abandoning Israel altogether seems like it could further accelerate their descent into theocratic fascism, which isn't good given the country's growing radical (genocidal) right and nuclear arsenal. Idk. |
From what I've read, Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, a region that by and large is all about theocratic fascism/authoritarianism. It would be way beneath Israel to slide into that territory.
I'm vehemently opposed to neocon-style "nation building" or "spreading democracy" but keeping Israel a democracy is a good reason to keep supporting Israel. The fact that they don't have an official state religion opens the door to peace agreements with Arabs living there and equal rights for them. That's democratic. _________________ Lakers 49ers Chargers Dodgers |
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 12:44 am Post subject: |
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jodeke wrote: | Halflife wrote: | I get the conflict but am not educated on the nuance of it but from an outsiders pov it just seems like Israel is a bully and is way too heavy handed. Do the Palestinians even have an army?
I know it’s not our conflict and do understand our commitment to Israel but this is not good and we should be more vocal than a press brief. |
Please enlighten me. It's something I do not understand. |
The "unconditional" commitment is what bothers me. I understand that Israel is surrounded by "enemies" who, despite what they say to the outside world, would want nothing less than an "Israel-less" middle east. But there should never be a blank cheque for Israel to do whatever it wants.
It seems no matter who's in the WH or who dominates Congress, the unconditional support is there. Like blocking a UN Security Council resolution condemning the violence.
One of the main reasons that sparked the latest clashes were the evictions in Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem:
How Evictions in Jerusalem Led to Israeli-Palestinian Violence
Quote: | Israeli law permits Jews to reclaim property that they or their families owned in Jerusalem prior to the division of the city after Israel’s establishment in 1948, provided that they can prove ownership of the land. For their part, Palestinians cannot claim rights to property they once owned in Jerusalem or other parts of Israel. |
_________________ “Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”
― Isaac Asimov |
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ChefLinda Moderator
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 5:18 am Post subject: |
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slavavov wrote: | I made what was seen by CL as an inappropriate comment re: the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and I apologize for that. That's the overly visceral side of me that usually doesn't win out.
Like I also said, both sides need to find some way to make peace with each other, even if the Arab/Iranian side is inextricably linked with terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. A two-state solution sounds like the only thing that could work.
And as others have alluded to, it may help if Netanyahu leaves and is replaced by someone more even-keeled. |
Thank you for acknowledging and addressing. |
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Omar Little Moderator
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 7:59 am Post subject: |
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John Oliver did a good piece on the conflict, where he talked about the massive disparity in political and military power, and how the Palestinian civilians always take it many times worse than the Israelis. And he had the guts to use the word apartheid in how Israel steals and runs their occupied territories, and the horror that is living in Gaza. The “it’s hamas’s fault” excuse is thin and dishonest. They are a bad group of actors, but so is their enemy, who has gone from self defense to much deeper levels of war crimes. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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