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PopcornMachine Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2001 Posts: 10566
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: 15 Game Stats - A More In-Depth Look |
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I thought I would take another look at team stats and +/- after 15 games. This time, in addition to the five man lineups, I wanted to see how the threesomes ranked. This time I also use adjusted +/-, which takes into account how team performs while a player or group of players is out of the game.
Team stats are updated on PopcornMachine.net automatically after every game (once I upload the data, that is).
You can always check them here: http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/teamstats.cgi?team=LAL&type=pergame
Here is a summary of scoring and some of the special status I keep track of.
Code: | pts hv prod eff
Kobe Bryant 26.2 Lamar Odom 11.5 Kobe Bryant .89 Kobe Bryant 23.8
Lamar Odoom 19.3 Kwame Brown 9.1 Brain Cook .87 Lamar Odom 22.3
Luke Walton 12.4 Kobe Bryant 8.1 Ronny Turiaf .82 Luke Walton 15.1
Smush Parker 9.4 Luke Walton 7.9 Lamar Odom .77 Andrew Bynum 12.1
Anderw Bynum 8.3 Andrew Bynum 7.1 Andrew Bynum .75 Kwame Brown 11.9
Kwame Brown 7.4 Smush Parker 4.5 Kwame Brown .69
Luke Walton .64
HelpValue hv = rebounds + assists + steals + blocks - turnovers
Productivity prod = (points + hv) / min
Efficiency eff = (points + assists + rebounds + steals + blocks + field_goals + free_throws)
- (turnovers + attempted_fieldgoals + attempted_freethrows)
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Indvidual +/- per game:
Code: | Kwame Brown 8 24.1 6.8
Lamar Odom 15 40.3 4.0
Jordan Farmar 13 17.5 2.4
Kobe Bryant 13 38.7 2.3
Maurice Evans 15 17.0 2.0
Ronny Turiaf 12 10.8 2.0
Shammond Williams 4 8.7 2.0
Smush Parker 15 29.9 0.6
Sasha Vujacic 11 9.6 0.5
Vladimir Radmanovic 15 14.4 0.3
Luke Walton 15 31.6 0.2
Andrew Bynum 15 20.6 -0.3
Biran Cook 10 9.9 -1.4
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Individual +/- adjusted per minute and in/out of game. For example, when Lamar is in the game the Lakers have a tenth of a point edge per minute. When he's out they have lost a tenth of a point per minute. His net +/- is 0.20 per minute.
Code: | In Game Out Of Game
Min p pm Min p pm Adj pm
Kwame Brown 192.66 53 0.28 527.34 -5 -0.01 0.29
Lamar Odom 603.84 60 0.10 116.16 -12 -0.10 0.20
Shammond Williams 34.75 8 0.23 685.25 40 0.06 0.17
Ronny Turiaf 129.73 24 0.18 590.27 24 0.04 0.14
Jordan Farmar 227.26 31 0.14 492.74 17 0.03 0.11
Maurice Evans 254.94 30 0.12 465.06 18 0.04 0.08
Kobe Bryant 503.33 30 0.06 216.67 18 0.08 -0.02
Sasha Vujacic 106.02 5 0.05 613.98 43 0.07 -0.02
Vladimir Radmanovic 215.76 5 0.02 504.24 43 0.09 -0.07
Andrew Bynum 309.70 -5 -0.02 410.30 53 0.13 -0.15
Smush Parker 448.88 9 0.02 271.12 39 0.14 -0.14
Luke Walton 474.60 3 0.01 245.40 45 0.18 -0.17
Brian Cook 98.53 -13 -0.13 621.47 61 0.10 -0.23
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Five man lineups, more than 10 minutes:
Code: | 208.31 2 0.01 Andrew Bynum,Kobe Bryant,Lamar Odom,Luke Walton,Smush Parker
77.32 10 0.13 Kobe Bryant,Kwame Brown,Lamar Odom,Luke Walton,Smush Parker
24.47 19 0.78 Andrew Bynum,Lamar Odom,Luke Walton,Maurice Evans,Smush Parker
21.33 18 0.84 Kobe Bryant,Lamar Odom,Luke Walton,Ronny Turiaf,Smush Parker
20.02 0 0.00 Brian Cook,Kobe Bryant,Lamar Odom,Luke Walton,Smush Parker
19.82 4 0.20 Jordan Farmar,Lamar Odom,Maurice Evans,Ronny Turiaf,Vladimir Radmanovic
15.90 1 0.06 Jordan Farmar,Kwame Brown,Lamar Odom,Maurice Evans,Vladimir Radmanovic
14.03 6 0.43 Brian Cook,Jordan Farmar,Ronny Turiaf,Shammond Williams,Vladimir Radmanovic
11.86 9 0.76 Lamar Odom,Luke Walton,Maurice Evans,Ronny Turiaf,Smush Parker
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Three man groups, 200 or more minutes:
Code: | In min +/- permin Out min +/- permin adj
Lamar Odom Smush Parker Luke Walton 377.42 40 0.106 342.58 8 0.023 0.083
Kobe Bryant Lamar Odom Luke Walton 359.43 27 0.075 360.57 21 0.058 0.017
Kobe Bryant Smush Parker Luke Walton 340.01 24 0.071 379.99 24 0.063 0.007
Kobe Bryant Lamar Odom Smush Parker 351.45 17 0.048 368.55 31 0.084 -0.036
Andrew Bynum Lamar Odom Smush Parker 252.91 9 0.036 467.09 39 0.083 -0.048
Andrew Bynum Kobe Bryant Lamar Odom 230.33 2 0.009 489.67 46 0.094 -0.085
Andrew Bynum Smush Parker Luke Walton 252.24 -1 -0.004 467.76 49 0.105 -0.109
Andrew Bynum Kobe Bryant Luke Walton 231.13 -2 -0.009 488.87 50 0.102 -0.111
Andrew Bynum Kobe Bryant Smush Parker 221.61 -3 -0.014 498.39 51 0.102 -0.116
Andrew Bynum Lamar Odom Luke Walton 255.85 -3 -0.012 464.15 51 0.110 -0.122
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Three man groups, less than 200 and greater than 70 minutes:
Code: | In min +/- permin Out min +/- permin adj
Lamar Odom Jordan Farmar Maurice Evans 98.51 27 0.274 621.49 21 0.034 0.240
Kobe Bryant Lamar Odom Kwame Brown 119.70 29 0.242 600.30 19 0.032 0.211
Lamar Odom Jordan Farmar Vladimir Radmanovic 74.55 19 0.255 645.45 29 0.045 0.210
Lamar Odom Maurice Evans Vladimir Radmanovic 82.23 15 0.182 637.77 33 0.052 0.131
Kobe Bryant Luke Walton Kwame Brown 97.54 16 0.164 622.46 32 0.051 0.113
Lamar Odom Luke Walton Kwame Brown 88.05 10 0.114 631.95 38 0.060 0.053
Lamar Odom Smush Parker Kwame Brown 97.75 10 0.102 622.25 38 0.061 0.041
Kobe Bryant Smush Parker Kwame Brown 96.21 7 0.073 623.79 41 0.066 0.007
Smush Parker Luke Walton Kwame Brown 82.52 4 0.048 637.48 44 0.069 -0.021
Jordan Farmar Maurice Evans Vladimir Radmanovic 91.48 4 0.044 628.52 44 0.070 -0.026
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Three man groups, less than 70 and greater than 32 minutes:
Code: | In min +/- permin Out min +/- permin adj
Kobe Bryant Kwame Brown Jordan Farmar 35.25 26 0.738 684.75 22 0.032 0.705
Lamar Odom Luke Walton Maurice Evans 50.72 36 0.710 669.28 12 0.018 0.692
Lamar Odom Luke Walton Ronny Turiaf 41.03 29 0.707 678.97 19 0.028 0.679
Andrew Bynum Smush Parker Maurice Evans 34.25 21 0.613 685.75 27 0.039 0.574
Kobe Bryant Kwame Brown Maurice Evans 41.82 24 0.574 678.18 24 0.035 0.538
Kwame Brown Maurice Evans Vladimir Radmanovic 51.26 29 0.566 668.74 19 0.028 0.537
Smush Parker Luke Walton Ronny Turiaf 39.18 22 0.562 680.82 26 0.038 0.523
Lamar Odom Smush Parker Ronny Turiaf 40.01 20 0.500 679.99 28 0.041 0.459
Kobe Bryant Lamar Odom Maurice Evans 45.27 22 0.486 674.73 26 0.039 0.447
Kobe Bryant Luke Walton Ronny Turiaf 37.95 15 0.395 682.05 33 0.048 0.347
Kobe Bryant Lamar Odom Jordan Farmar 57.48 21 0.365 662.52 27 0.041 0.325
Lamar Odom Smush Parker Maurice Evans 67.65 23 0.340 652.35 25 0.038 0.302
Lamar Odom Ronny Turiaf Maurice Evans 39.96 14 0.350 680.04 34 0.050 0.300
Kwame Brown Jordan Farmar Maurice Evans 50.91 17 0.334 669.09 31 0.046 0.288
Lamar Odom Kwame Brown Jordan Farmar 45.14 15 0.332 674.86 33 0.049 0.283
Kobe Bryant Lamar Odom Ronny Turiaf 35.90 12 0.334 684.10 36 0.053 0.282
Lamar Odom Jordan Farmar Sasha Vujacic 35.95 12 0.334 684.05 36 0.053 0.281
Andrew Bynum Lamar Odom Maurice Evans 59.87 19 0.317 660.13 29 0.044 0.273
Lamar Odom Kwame Brown Maurice Evans 60.67 19 0.313 659.33 29 0.044 0.269
Lamar Odom Kwame Brown Vladimir Radmanovic 39.49 12 0.304 680.51 36 0.053 0.251
Jordan Farmar Vladimir Radmanovic Brian Cook 45.39 13 0.286 674.61 35 0.052 0.235
Ronny Turiaf Jordan Farmar Vladimir Radmanovic 52.21 12 0.230 667.79 36 0.054 0.176
Lamar Odom Sasha Vujacic Vladimir Radmanovic 33.01 7 0.212 686.99 41 0.060 0.152
Smush Parker Luke Walton Maurice Evans 47.16 9 0.191 672.84 39 0.058 0.133
Ronny Turiaf Jordan Farmar Maurice Evans 42.96 8 0.186 677.04 40 0.059 0.127
Kobe Bryant Jordan Farmar Maurice Evans 61.34 8 0.130 658.66 40 0.061 0.070
Ronny Turiaf Maurice Evans Vladimir Radmanovic 43.47 4 0.092 676.53 44 0.065 0.027
Andrew Bynum Lamar Odom Jordan Farmar 32.02 -2 -0.062 687.98 50 0.073 -0.135
Lamar Odom Luke Walton Jordan Farmar 40.54 -5 -0.123 679.46 53 0.078 -0.201
Kobe Bryant Luke Walton Jordan Farmar 39.21 -5 -0.128 680.79 53 0.078 -0.205
Lamar Odom Ronny Turiaf Vladimir Radmanovic 36.43 -7 -0.192 683.57 55 0.080 -0.273
Kobe Bryant Lamar Odom Brian Cook 32.60 -7 -0.215 687.40 55 0.080 -0.295
Kobe Bryant Maurice Evans Vladimir Radmanovic 37.30 -14 -0.375 682.70 62 0.091 -0.466
Kobe Bryant Luke Walton Brian Cook 33.31 -13 -0.390 686.69 61 0.089 -0.479
Kobe Bryant Jordan Farmar Vladimir Radmanovic 39.13 -18 -0.460 680.87 66 0.097 -0.557
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HBA Star Player
Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 5317
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Lets all keep in mind something VERY important when looking at
Kobe Bryant's plus minus folks.
And that is that it is SEVERLY negatively affected by the fact that he missed the first two games the lakers played where they beat the Suns by 8 or 10 points and the Warriors by 11 points. He has only played 70% of all available minutes, where normally, the ratio would be closer to 85%.
It might not seem like much, but +/- is a function of the amount of time spent on the court as well. IF you dont play two full games whereby your team wins by 8 and 11 points, it will take quite a bit of time to recoup that +/- situation BACK to a +.
Kobe is back to a plus now where he currently stands at +2.3, i believe. If you were to have looked at his plus minus before he even played a single minute, it was probably pretty atrocious. |
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HBA Star Player
Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 5317
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.nbcsports.com/nba/501280/detail.html
actually, i just went to 82games.com and clicked the link for +/- ratings and seen some pretty drastic stuff.
Ill let you all look first.
Now, im not understanding something.
Kobe, for example the night agaisnt, I think it was milwaukee where we lost, they spoke about how with Kobe we won 99-89 but withou him it was 20-6 milwaukee.
And then last night's jazz game where hwe CRUSHED them with kobe in the game.
Now, im not so sure anymore. What the hell is going on at 82games.com
I mean, its starting to seem liek THEY TO have kobe bias or something. I mean, are these frekaing guys keeping it real down there or what.
Cause, like i said, if you kept track of just the last two games only, you can see the enormous difference.
AND YET, kobe is ONLY at +1.8. WHAT THE HELL???
Did the first tow games mean THAT Much to his PER. I mean you look at other players, and its a different story completely! |
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PopcornMachine Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2001 Posts: 10566
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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HBA, I think you are over complicating things.
The games Kobe missed don't hurt him at all. No effect whatsoever.
And I don't know about that stuff on nbcsports from 82games.
I can only go by the data that I have. While it isn't gaurunteed to be 100% accurate, it is close enough.
Also, I'm glad the Lakers don't have one player with dominant +/- figures like that. It means you have a bad team. |
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HBA Star Player
Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 5317
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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PopcornMachine wrote: | HBA, I think you are over complicating things.
The games Kobe missed don't hurt him at all. No effect whatsoever.
And I don't know about that stuff on nbcsports from 82games.
I can only go by the data that I have. While it isn't gaurunteed to be 100% accurate, it is close enough.
Also, I'm glad the Lakers don't have one player with dominant +/- figures like that. It means you have a bad team. |
Actually, kobe not playing does matter.
I remember last year I was keeping track of KObe, LBJ and Wade's +/- all the way through the year.
When LJB sat out a couple games and his team won, it affected his +/- whereby it went down.
And it makes perfect sense. You arent on the floor and your team wins without you.
And furthermore, if it wasnt affecting him, then why is it showing only 70% of minutes played vs. 84% for Lamar. Clearly, its those first two games where the difference lies, because since the first two games, both players have basically played the same number of minutes. |
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mbloves L.A. Star Player
Joined: 21 Feb 2005 Posts: 3886 Location: Hollywood
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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The only math that should be involved in basketball should be the score. _________________ Where's Cokie the Clown when you need him? |
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PopcornMachine Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2001 Posts: 10566
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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mbloves L.A. wrote: | The only math that should be involved in basketball should be the score. |
You're welcome. |
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Wolverine Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2004 Posts: 7846 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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mbloves L.A. wrote: | The only math that should be involved in basketball should be the score. |
:roll: |
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Forum Blue Sixth Man
Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Posts: 65
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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HBA wrote: | PopcornMachine wrote: |
And I don't know about that stuff on nbcsports from 82games.
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What you do is invaluable. That said, it sort or surprises me to read the above quote from you, what is "going on" at 82games is both the kind of +/- you are doing (although tracked slightly differently, I imagine) plus the use of those numbers and other things culled from game charting to provide detailed statistical team pictures. That and things like the work of Dan Rosenbaum I would think would interest you greatly. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the growing body of work on NBA statistics out there, +/- and otherwise, but there is no need for you to "reinvent the wheel" on things like your HV. There are more sophisticated tools out there.
Lest you scoff, I can assure you that what you see on 82games.com and in Roland's NBC stories from the site are not his best and most advanced work, that is reserved for the many NBA teams paying for that info. |
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PopcornMachine Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2001 Posts: 10566
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Wasn't scoffing. Not at all how I meant it.
Just was confused as those figures didn't agree with mine.
Now I realize that data was a day or two off from mine.
I kind of like my hv. It is very simple, but I find it useful.
Anyway, glad you like my stuff. Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome. |
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uberzev Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jan 2002 Posts: 19120 Location: SDSU
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Great job as always Pop. Don't worry about those haters. _________________ Lakers Gonna Lake |
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DancingBarry Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001 Posts: 40222 Location: O.C.
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:37 am Post subject: |
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Nicely done, Pop. |
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bobthomas8 Starting Rotation
Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 384
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
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word to your mother. _________________ Adversity is the state in which man mostly easily becomes acquainted with himself, being especially free of admirers then. -John Wooden |
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froesel Starting Rotation
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 701 Location: Lakerland USA
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: |
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Two things I look for after a win or loss is DB's commentary and Pop's gameflow stats.
Thanks guys you make a better and informed Laker fan. Keep up the good work. _________________ Win or lose, for better or worse, always a Laker fan. |
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Forum Blue Sixth Man
Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Posts: 65
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:26 am Post subject: |
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PopcornMachine wrote: | Wasn't scoffing. Not at all how I meant it.
Just was confused as those figures didn't agree with mine.
Now I realize that data was a day or two off from mine.
I kind of like my hv. It is very simple, but I find it useful.
Anyway, glad you like my stuff. Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome. |
82games always is a couple days behind, just do to the volume of info. And having the +/- for groups of five or three is very helpful, more helpful than the individual +/- (which says a lot about who you play with and who you sub for, not just the player). Thanks for that.
You're not the only one who likes HV, the NBA uses something similar on its site. We can discuss whether a rebound is equal to an assist is equal to a block in helping a team win (the basic concept behind weighted +/- and other stats, even flawed systems like Hollinger's). But really, like I said, you just providing the info makes it better for all of us to understand the Lakers and other teams. |
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golakersgo121 Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 11717 Location: 8 miles from Staples Center
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: |
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PopcornMachine wrote: | mbloves L.A. wrote: | The only math that should be involved in basketball should be the score. |
You're welcome. |
Pop,
As somebody who understands what it takes to create and maintain database, to upload information at least 82 times a year, and, most importantly, to create meaningful for analyzes formulas using this data I am expressing my huge personal appreciation for what you have done.
Please, don't pay any attention to people who want to know the final score. There are people here who understand and appreciate what you are doing...
GLG |
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JerryMagicKobe Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 15100
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Great to see the stats - I like hv, too and its NOT surprising to see Odom at the top of that, but it IS surprising to see Kwame at #2. Another simple one is points per shot attempt - interesting to compare the scorers in the league, and it is a simple way to do it, and it seems to translate pretty well historically (with Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan etc.). |
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A Mad Chinaman Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 6186
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Great stat work, as DB has advertised/promoted
Re: Substitution Patterns
Do you have any stats that compares Phil's pattern(s) of substitutions from game to game?
During the Clippers game, it "felt" that Phil was substituting more quickly that allowed the players to play at a higher level - as the result of the Lakers being more talented and deeper this season?
Specifically, it "felt" that Bynum/Farmar had entered the game earlier for Kwame and Smush. It, after some further reveiw, might have parallelled Dunleavy substitution pattern (i.e. subbing in Kaman for Williams - along with Livingston for Cassell) |
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