|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
LakerSanity
Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 33474
Location: Long Beach, California
|
 Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Luca Brasi wrote: | | 4 rebounds is unacceptable in 15 minutes of play, he doesn't need to get 10 in 15 minutes, but when he shows that with focus and effort that he can pull down 5 in 7 minutes, the coaching staff believes that 4 rebound average in 15 minutes is too low, don't you think that's too low? |
Here are the PFs/Cs who average 4 or less rebounds per 15 minutes in the playoffs (in order)... Luis Scola, Pau Gasol, Pau Millsap, Dirk Nowitzki, Antonio McDyess, Theo Ratliff, Joe Smith, Tim Duncan, Eric Dampier, Anderson Varejao, Zadrunas Ilgauskus, Andrew Bynum, Carl Landry, Brandon Bass, David West, Rasheed Wallace, Jason Maxiell, LaMarcus Aldridge, Ben Wallace, Jermaine O'Neal, Rashard Lewis, Kenyon Martin, etc.
| Quote: | | an acceptable margin for andrew and what he's capable of is around 7 boards per 15 minutes, that's not that much too ask for when he's shown us that he is actually capable of at least that much. |
Here's a list of players who averaged 7 or more rebounds per 15 minutes in the playoffs... there aren't any.
In fact, Dwight Howard is the only player to average 6 rebounds per 15 minutes in the playoffs, and he doesn't play next to either of Lamar Odom or Pau Gasol (who are both top 20 rebounders in the playoffs). Bynum is the only player on these lists to play next to two top 20 rebounders in the front court.
Luca, I don't think those are realistic or fair expectations. Per 30 minutes, Bynum is averaging 10 PPG, 7 RPG. I don't think that's bad, especially since his minutes are so sporadic that he probably hasn't been able to get in rhythm in addition to his confidence issues.
_________________
LakersGround's Terms of Service
Twitter: @DeleteThisPost |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
DancingBarry
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001
Posts: 40211
Location: O.C.
|
| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 11:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Flo'z wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | Getting a little heated in here. 
No one said it would be easy.
The team worked all season for games/situations just like this. You want game 7 at home. The fans need to bring it, support these guys like mad. Make some crazy-ass noise in Staples. Our guys thrive off it, just like Houston did in their house.
We all wish we had some say in the chess game that goes on. One thing we can control is the noise in Staples. Bring it, L.A. Defend home court. |
Hey DB, I tried, man. I tried. Back in preseason I released a song w/ video titled "It Won't Be Easy" oddly featuring a clip of the rockets takin' it to a smeltic (it's still buck foston allday-evryday).
Next, toward the end of the season, when we begin to let our guards down and lose a few mo' games to teams far less talented, I released a song I was sure would be a LG death-sentence (as in being deemed a troll, noobie, etc.) for me. It is entitled "Illusion" -- shoutout to Alpha.
And if my computer hadn't committed suicide last night, I would have released another message in song (titled: "The Ghost of Game 6") to fellow Lakers fans that this is not the end of the road. We, as in all of us, need to remain positive through the ups and downs. Agree to disagree and root our hearts out. Because whether we realize it or not, the players appreciate our support-- through good and bad.
FYI, I wrote the "...ghost of game 6" before my computer flat-lined. Spent all day trying to revive it and still....nothing. Had to pull out the old laptop, pack up my studio and come to grips with not being able to record again until I can afford to buy a new desktop. Woe is me.  Nonetheless, I still "Believe"..........
Hopefully, I'm not alone in that regard. |
Arrrgh. That's horrible to hear. What a pain.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Luca Brasi
Star Player
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 4207
|
| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LakerSanity wrote: | | Luca Brasi wrote: | | 4 rebounds is unacceptable in 15 minutes of play, he doesn't need to get 10 in 15 minutes, but when he shows that with focus and effort that he can pull down 5 in 7 minutes, the coaching staff believes that 4 rebound average in 15 minutes is too low, don't you think that's too low? |
Here are the PFs/Cs who average 4 or less rebounds per 15 minutes in the playoffs (in order)... Luis Scola, Pau Gasol, Pau Millsap, Dirk Nowitzki, Antonio McDyess, Theo Ratliff, Joe Smith, Tim Duncan, Eric Dampier, Anderson Varejao, Zadrunas Ilgauskus, Andrew Bynum, Carl Landry, Brandon Bass, David West, Rasheed Wallace, Jason Maxiell, LaMarcus Aldridge, Ben Wallace, Jermaine O'Neal, Rashard Lewis, Kenyon Martin, etc.
| Quote: | | an acceptable margin for andrew and what he's capable of is around 7 boards per 15 minutes, that's not that much too ask for when he's shown us that he is actually capable of at least that much. |
Here's a list of players who averaged 7 or more rebounds per 15 minutes in the playoffs... there aren't any.
In fact, Dwight Howard is the only player to average 6 rebounds per 15 minutes in the playoffs, and he doesn't play next to either of Lamar Odom or Pau Gasol (who are both top 20 rebounders in the playoffs). Bynum is the only player on these lists to play next to two top 20 rebounders in the front court.
Luca, I don't think those are realistic or fair expectations. Per 30 minutes, Bynum is averaging 10 PPG, 7 RPG. I don't think that's bad, especially since his minutes are so sporadic that he probably hasn't been able to get in rhythm in addition to his confidence issues. |
if your happy with bynums effort in relation to his minutes, then be happy. but he's not playing up to his potential. that's why his minutes have been reduced, that and foul some foul trouble. but be that is it may, he's still not giving us what we need to be successful. and 7 rebounds might be lofty, but to what do you contribute his 5 rebounds in 7 minute stretch in the 3rd? luck? the truth is when bynum is active he can be a rebound demon. and playing next to pau in the this series is a poor excuse since scola for the most part doesn't even play in the paint, he's usually spotting up for a jump shot. one can dangle all the stats they want to about andrew's play but he can do better than what he's shown so far, whether that might be injury or lack of confidence due to being foul-prone, who knows.
he's not alone in this regard, though. kobe has been sub par throughout these playoffs, pau, although his numbers look good, has been inconsistent at best, lamar hasn't been himself since the utah series, and fish, well he looks completely lost out there, and that's being kind, sasha looks miserable out there as well.
so, no, i'm not going to give andrew a pass, because i'm not giving anyone else on this team a pass. and i'm not gonna blame the coaching staff either, it's too easy. it's like blaming parents for every dumb thing their kids do, at some point the responsibility falls on their shoulders.
also, here's why per 48 minute numbers are sometimes a horrible barometer. mbenga is leading the playoffs with over six blocks per 48 minutes played.
_________________
"i was born down in the valley where the sun refused to shine, but i'm climbin' up to the highlands, goin' to make that mountain mine" ~ Lakers, 2011 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerSanity
Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 33474
Location: Long Beach, California
|
| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
He's not playing up to his potential... no one is saying he is. However, he's not playing terribly either and still deserves more time than he's receiving. It was a mistake of Phil to use him as he did in the Utah series. He should have played more and, if he had, we likely would have seen better results from Bynum in this round. Even so, this round, Bynum still has played well enough to get more minutes especially since the more time on the floor he receives, the better he'll be in the end. Given that he's still been a positive (especially defensively), it's not like giving him those minutes would harm us either. That 3rd quarter wasn't the first time he played well and then still wasn't rewarded with more playing time because of it. Phil's used him terribly in the playoffs from game 3 in Utah on.
As far as his 5 rebounds in 7 minutes, you can't expect him to do that all the time or consistently because no one in the NBA is up to that standard. It's a statistical outlier... there will be times he does better than others just like any other player. In those 15 minutes, he's still going to play next to LO or Gasol, and he's still not going to get the ball as he should. Neither of those variables are his fault, but both serve to inhibit his stats. To expect such great stats from him at this point would be to expect a 21 year old still coming back from surgery playing next two of the top 20 rebounders at all times on the floor in his first playoffs ever to rebound better than anyone in the NBA playoffs on a consistent basis. That's just not realistic.
I'm not saying give him a pass, but I also don't think your expectations are realistic or fair either. I think there's a better happy medium to be found and I think a lot of Drew's struggles can be attributed to things he can't control - in a lot of ways, he's been put in a position to fail. That doesn't mean he can't still show more consistent effort, that its not up to him to fight through it, or that he can't show a better attitude sometimes, but it does mean that not all of his problems (or even the majority of them) are self-inflicted. Again, I'm not asking for a pass, but he should be given some more slack than he seems to be presently receiving.
_________________
LakersGround's Terms of Service
Twitter: @DeleteThisPost |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58374
|
| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | It was a mistake of Phil to use him as he did in the Utah series |
Thats not a mistake. If Phil didn't make the adjustment he did - which was to take AB out of the starting lineup and move Pau to Center - LA may have been in a 7th game in that series, too.
All you need to do is look at the record with Pau at PF starting next to AB at Center. The record is 3-4. With Pau starting at C, the record is 4-1. Now I'm not saying that is AB's fault, infact quite the opposite. I think its just the hard fact that Pau and AB together do not work with Kobe/Fish. The chemistry sucks. It has been the case for most of the season. Only people have been (for whatever reason) trying to fight it.
You can pretty much put it on anyone.
Phil - for not utililzing Bynum/Pau more in the offense.
Kobe - see Phil.
Fish - For being a SG in PG's body.
Pau - for lack of speed and mobility as a PF.
Bynum - for lack of game experience or defensive first attitude.
The blame can be put anywhere, I rather not blame anyone in particular. What I want to see is this ridiculous experiment end once and for all. The time to play Bynum and Pau together and force it to work is next training camp. With Luke Walton or some sort of real PG out there with them. Right now, we need to put our best lineups out there.
If Lamar didn't hurt his back, this series is over right now. That is basically what Phil implied, and I agree.
Gasol, Odom, Ariza, Kobe and Farmar - put them out there and we take game 7 with no problem. Book it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerSanity
Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 33474
Location: Long Beach, California
|
| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | It was a mistake of Phil to use him as he did in the Utah series |
Thats not a mistake. If Phil didn't make the adjustment he did - which was to take AB out of the starting lineup and move Pau to Center - LA may have been in a 7th game in that series, too. |
I think we would have won in 5 regardless.
I also have never agreed on your assessment of Pau/Bynum together. I don't want to retred the argument though because we're pretty much fixed in our positions.
_________________
LakersGround's Terms of Service
Twitter: @DeleteThisPost |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58374
|
| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LakerSanity wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | It was a mistake of Phil to use him as he did in the Utah series |
Thats not a mistake. If Phil didn't make the adjustment he did - which was to take AB out of the starting lineup and move Pau to Center - LA may have been in a 7th game in that series, too. |
I think we would have won in 5 regardless. |
Disagree.
We would have won, but I think it takes 6 or 7. Simply because Bynum was playing awful in Utah, he only played decent in LA. Then factor in that Lamar plays better as a starter - as do most players - and that Pau plays better at Center than PF. You begin games with Pau going (or atleast halves). The threat was that you drop 2 games in Utah instead of just 1. Exactly why Phil very unlike himself, quickly adjusted, mid-series.
There is just something very wrong with how Bynum/Gasol + Kobe/Fish play together out there right now. I'm a fan of all those guys, but IMO we need to wait until next training camp to go back to this lineup. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerSanity
Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 33474
Location: Long Beach, California
|
| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wolf, EVEN if it would have taken 7... I GUARANTEE that we wouldn't have lost the series... and even playing 7 games would have probably helped this team anyway because it might have made us tougher for this one. If you disagree with those premises, then we just disagree on something larger. However, if you agree there, no matter if we still won in 5 or won in 6/7, I would have only seen benefits in playing Bynum leading into the rest of the playoffs. Outside Kobe, no player has more of an ability to increase our chances at a ring than Bynum.
Playing Bynum offers toughness, size, better defense, and better rebounding - all the things people criticize us for. If we weren't going to lose to Utah anyway (which we weren't), there was no reason not to use that round to prep Bynum and get him ready,.
To your last point, the the largest problem isn't Pau playing next to Bynum, but how Fish, Kobe, and Phil are leading the team (including how they choose to use the Lakers' frontcourt).
_________________
LakersGround's Terms of Service
Twitter: @DeleteThisPost |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A Mad Chinaman
Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6166
|
| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LakerSanity wrote: | | Wolf, EVEN if it would have taken 7 |
Most people want to end playoff series as soon as they can to eliminate unknown factors such as injuries, etc.
In the losses, the Lakers' shooters were awful that resulted in that the Rockets were packing the lane while not allowing Pau any space. It is hard to place a great deal of blame when he is passing out of double-teams. Can't talk much about why he isn't getting more rebounds or being outplayed by Scola.
With Bynum, he is not active. With his height against the Rockets where his opponent is 7" shorter than he is, he should be getting more rebounds than what he is getting. Within the Triangle, the screens that Chuck Hayes is setting is an important part of the Triangle and/or their P&Rs.
DFish is just not hitting any shots and is understandable why he is driving the paint to at least force Brooks to do spend SOME ENERGY on defense. Maybe he should post Brooks up in the paint since it is part of the Triangle.
If Ariza and LO (understand he is injuried) and Farmar and Brown and Bynum (?!?!) are suppose to be the energy guys, why are they being outhustled on the road? Understand if they are not making their shots, but the energy?!?!?! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Luca Brasi
Star Player
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 4207
|
| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LakerSanity wrote: | He's not playing up to his potential... no one is saying he is. However, he's not playing terribly either and still deserves more time than he's receiving. It was a mistake of Phil to use him as he did in the Utah series. He should have played more and, if he had, we likely would have seen better results from Bynum in this round. Even so, this round, Bynum still has played well enough to get more minutes especially since the more time on the floor he receives, the better he'll be in the end. Given that he's still been a positive (especially defensively), it's not like giving him those minutes would harm us either. That 3rd quarter wasn't the first time he played well and then still wasn't rewarded with more playing time because of it. Phil's used him terribly in the playoffs from game 3 in Utah on.
As far as his 5 rebounds in 7 minutes, you can't expect him to do that all the time or consistently because no one in the NBA is up to that standard. It's a statistical outlier... there will be times he does better than others just like any other player. In those 15 minutes, he's still going to play next to LO or Gasol, and he's still not going to get the ball as he should. Neither of those variables are his fault, but both serve to inhibit his stats. To expect such great stats from him at this point would be to expect a 21 year old still coming back from surgery playing next two of the top 20 rebounders at all times on the floor in his first playoffs ever to rebound better than anyone in the NBA playoffs on a consistent basis. That's just not realistic.
I'm not saying give him a pass, but I also don't think your expectations are realistic or fair either. I think there's a better happy medium to be found and I think a lot of Drew's struggles can be attributed to things he can't control - in a lot of ways, he's been put in a position to fail. That doesn't mean he can't still show more consistent effort, that its not up to him to fight through it, or that he can't show a better attitude sometimes, but it does mean that not all of his problems (or even the majority of them) are self-inflicted. Again, I'm not asking for a pass, but he should be given some more slack than he seems to be presently receiving. |
i understand what you're saying LS, and my expectations of andrew are lofty only because i believe in his ability that much. but i can't fathom how you can believe that he's being set up to fail. to assume that you would need to believe that phil is sabotaging his team, and that doesn't make any sense, logically speaking, since phil is competing to unseat red for most championships - why on earth would he do anything to possibly derail that, something he desperately covets?
if andrew was as effective as he could be, he would not be averaging only 15 minutes a game, that's why the minutes argument doesn't wash me. there is no way phil would be keeping him to 15 minutes, if he was playing up to his abilities, he would be averaging more minutes, and this is what phil desires. phil would love to be able to play andrew 26-30 minutes a game, because that would mean that lakers have an actual defensive force in the paint. but to say that simply increasing andrew's minutes at this point would yield those results is an uncertainty at best. i know andrew believes this to be true, but he can help his case by being more assertive when he's in there - not on the offensive end, unless it's getting us second chance poinst, but owning the paint on the defensive end, with rebounding and blocks. andrew's avg .50 blks a game in this series, he was avg. 1.00 in the utah series - he needs to contest some of those shots that brooks and lowry are taking at our rim. i know that it's on the guards to level those guys off, but when they don't then it falls on the last line of defense, your center.
maybe 5 rebounds in 7 minutes is an outlier, i'll give you that, but it goes to show you how well andrew can rebound when he's focused on just that, rebounding, or playing defense. can you not see the correlation that we cut a 16 point deficit during that stretch where andrew locked down the pain and rebounded the way he did.
also, i've never understood what fish/kobe have to do with andrew's rebounding and defending. they might limit his touches on the offensive end sometimes with their bone-headed organizing of the offense, but there is no excuse for not wanting to rebounding and play defense even if you're not getting offensive touches. maybe i live in a fantasy world, but i've always believed that center a should want to rebound and play defense regardless of how he's utilized in the offense, the best example in that regard is bill russell. yes, i said it, i wish andrew will turn out more like bill russell and less like shaq, only because in the end it will mean more titles for the lakers.
_________________
"i was born down in the valley where the sun refused to shine, but i'm climbin' up to the highlands, goin' to make that mountain mine" ~ Lakers, 2011 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerSanity
Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 33474
Location: Long Beach, California
|
| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 8:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Luca, I have the same expectations for Bynum in regards to his career... I just don't have those expectations for him in these playoffs, especially not with the way Phil has been using him. You say it's Drew, I say it's Phil AND Drew. Personally, even if Drew isn't giving as much as he can, I'd still give him the minutes just because it helps the team - that's all I care about.
I only brought up Kobe/Fish in regards to Drew's scoring, not his rebounding. However, you can say that playing behind FIsh (which pulls Bynum away from the rim to help compensate for Fish's deficiencies as a defender), probably affects Bynum's rebounding in that it takes him out of good rebounding position.
We agree on the point that offense shouldn't have anything to do with rebounding/defense... however, for most of today's players, that usually isn't the case (unfortunately). I'm not sure Bynum is one of those centers yet simply because I think he's still figuring his way out as a young player.
_________________
LakersGround's Terms of Service
Twitter: @DeleteThisPost |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Addicus
Star Player
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 9642
Location: Dave's Pimp Palace
|
| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
LS Andrew is just too immature to accept he dominate the game and not score a point. That would mean he had to give maximum effort on the boards and defense. He still gets frustrated on offense. I think we should feed him - when he gets proper position. Half the time he sets up at the free throw line. That's fone for Pau and LO, but not Bynum coming off injury. He has to own the paint on both ends, especially with Lamar injured. Phil has to play the guards that benefit the team. That means Fish and Sasha need to get splinters from being crazy glued to the bench. Kobe has to get Bynum easy shots and not just raise up.
_________________
Stop crying and start doing.
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/addicusbrown |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
