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ChickenStu
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31995
Location: Anaheim, CA
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 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew Evenstar wrote: | | disgusting , no one in hockey ever does this. like someone else said above. every single hockey player thinks the action was intentional. |
I've been watching hockey since before Gretzky came to the LA Kings. This is a 100% intent to injure act, period; I've never seen anything like this in a hockey game. This is not a hockey play where you check a guy into the boards from behind or something and just get the timing wrong and suffer a major penalty and ejection. As others have said and as you say above, yes, this is an unnatural hockey play to lift your skate like that. Nobody does that. In the instances in the NHL where a player has been cut by a skate blade, it has involved a player who has fallen to the ice where their head is on the ice or near the ice, and then another player is in the vicinity and the skate blade makes contact with their head/neck area.
In terms of hockey players being charged with crimes, I recall that Marty McSorley was prosecuted when he swung his stuck at Donald Brashear's head in an ugly incident in 2000; he was charged with assault with a weapon, was found guilty, and avoided jail time with an 18-month suspended sentence. Todd Bertuzzi brutally sucker-punched Steve Moore from behind in a game in 2004 and kept at it as Moore crumpled to the ice; that disgusting incident led to Bertuzzi being charged with assault causing bodily harm in a Canadian court (in British Columbia), and he plea bargained out of serving jail time, much to Moore's dismay. The two parties eventually settled a civil case out of court, with terms of the financial settlement kept confidential. (I'm guessing Moore received millions, as he never played again.)
This guy died as a direct result of a non-hockey play. He's going to get convicted, deservedly so, and it's just a matter of how much time he actually serves. |
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C M B
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 19874
Location: Prarie & Manchester, high above the western sideline
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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I just noticed a mod added the word "accidentally" to the thread title. lol
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| Sister Golden Hair wrote: | LAMAR ODOM is an anagram for ... DOOM ALARM
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16185
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| C M B wrote: | | I just noticed a mod added the word "accidentally" to the thread title. lol |
Case closed |
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DaMuleRules
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52686
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: |
This guy died as a direct result of a non-hockey play. He's going to get convicted, deservedly so, and it's just a matter of how much time he actually serves. |
As I said before, I don't know the specifics of how UK law works, but if they can actually prove that the act was intentional and not a hockey move, that sort of elevates it past what the article posted states as involuntary manslaughter, so I wonder if the have a higher level similar to the negligent homicide status we have here. Just curious as to what kind of time he might ultimately face.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16185
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: |
This guy died as a direct result of a non-hockey play. He's going to get convicted, deservedly so, and it's just a matter of how much time he actually serves. |
As I said before, I don't know the specifics of how UK law works, but if they can actually prove that the act was intentional and not a hockey move, that sort of elevates it past what the article posted states as involuntary manslaughter, so I wonder if the have a higher level similar to the negligent homicide status we have here. Just curious as to what kind of time he might ultimately face. |
It would still fall under involuntary manslaughter:
| Quote: | Criminal Charges: Involuntary Manslaughter
Involuntary manslaughter is the main criminal charge at play. It involves unintentionally causing the death of another person as a result of recklessness, negligence or an unlawful act. In these types of cases, the defendant did not intend to kill the person but failed to act with due care, resulting in the unintended death.
This is in contrast to voluntary manslaughter, where the defendant intentionally kills another person without the prior intent to kill. So that charge may apply when someone is killed in the heat of passion or during a fight.
Here, though, involuntary manslaughter is the focus. Did Petgrave intend to raise his leg and in doing so was he reckless or negligent?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmacramalla/2023/11/06/matt-petgrave-could-face-legal-action-for-hockey-death-of-adam-johnson/?sh=1e8d45206d70 |
| Quote: | Manslaughter Charge Against Petgrave
While it’s perhaps unlikely that Petgrave will be charged criminally, an involuntary manslaughter charge is not out of the question. In attempting to impede Johnson’s progress, Petgrave plants his right leg to gain the necessary leverage to extend his left leg. As he alters his momentum, the right leg is straightened to support the raising of his left leg with a view to impeding Johnson’s progress. The act has been likened to a karate kick and for good reason.
But did Petgrave intend to kill Johnson? Of course not. He was reckless or negligent when he extended his leg but did not intend to kill Johnson.
Ultimately, it’s reasonable to conclude that Petgrave intended the act but not the outcome. |
So, if Petgrave intended to kick Johnson = involuntary manslaughter
But, if Petgrave intended to kill Johnson = murder |
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DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52686
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: |
This guy died as a direct result of a non-hockey play. He's going to get convicted, deservedly so, and it's just a matter of how much time he actually serves. |
As I said before, I don't know the specifics of how UK law works, but if they can actually prove that the act was intentional and not a hockey move, that sort of elevates it past what the article posted states as involuntary manslaughter, so I wonder if the have a higher level similar to the negligent homicide status we have here. Just curious as to what kind of time he might ultimately face. |
It would still fall under involuntary manslaughter:
| Quote: | Criminal Charges: Involuntary Manslaughter
Involuntary manslaughter is the main criminal charge at play. It involves unintentionally causing the death of another person as a result of recklessness, negligence or an unlawful act. In these types of cases, the defendant did not intend to kill the person but failed to act with due care, resulting in the unintended death.
This is in contrast to voluntary manslaughter, where the defendant intentionally kills another person without the prior intent to kill. So that charge may apply when someone is killed in the heat of passion or during a fight.
Here, though, involuntary manslaughter is the focus. Did Petgrave intend to raise his leg and in doing so was he reckless or negligent?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmacramalla/2023/11/06/matt-petgrave-could-face-legal-action-for-hockey-death-of-adam-johnson/?sh=1e8d45206d70 |
| Quote: | Manslaughter Charge Against Petgrave
While it’s perhaps unlikely that Petgrave will be charged criminally, an involuntary manslaughter charge is not out of the question. In attempting to impede Johnson’s progress, Petgrave plants his right leg to gain the necessary leverage to extend his left leg. As he alters his momentum, the right leg is straightened to support the raising of his left leg with a view to impeding Johnson’s progress. The act has been likened to a karate kick and for good reason.
But did Petgrave intend to kill Johnson? Of course not. He was reckless or negligent when he extended his leg but did not intend to kill Johnson.
Ultimately, it’s reasonable to conclude that Petgrave intended the act but not the outcome. |
So, if Petgrave intended to kick Johnson = involuntary manslaughter
But, if Petgrave intended to kill Johnson = murder |
Thanks for the info.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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ChickenStu
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31995
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: |
This guy died as a direct result of a non-hockey play. He's going to get convicted, deservedly so, and it's just a matter of how much time he actually serves. |
As I said before, I don't know the specifics of how UK law works, but if they can actually prove that the act was intentional and not a hockey move, that sort of elevates it past what the article posted states as involuntary manslaughter, so I wonder if the have a higher level similar to the negligent homicide status we have here. Just curious as to what kind of time he might ultimately face. |
Yeah it's kind of like what LBP posted already, and you can go back to the McSorley and Bertuzzi incidents. What they did was on the ice during a competitive game in their sport, but neither plays were accidents or anything that would occur during the normal flow of play. You swing your stick high to hit another guy in the face, you've gone beyond the "natural hockey play" thing. You sucker punch a guy from behind and continue to hit him as he is prone on the ice, and you've gone beyond hockey; that wasn't a fight where two guys engage each other, let's say, and maybe one guy just gets punched out so hard he's seriously injured. (I've never seen that happen, btw, though certainly we've seen guys bloodied in the face from taking a direct shot during a fight.) They were prosecuted and deservedly so.
I just can't imagine that he's not held criminally liable for this. And since this guy died, I also can't see how he gets off with a suspended sentence and doesn't serve jail time. I'm sure he never imagined his actions would cause a guy's death, but when you go over the line like that, you deserve to suffer the consequences. |
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DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52686
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: |
This guy died as a direct result of a non-hockey play. He's going to get convicted, deservedly so, and it's just a matter of how much time he actually serves. |
As I said before, I don't know the specifics of how UK law works, but if they can actually prove that the act was intentional and not a hockey move, that sort of elevates it past what the article posted states as involuntary manslaughter, so I wonder if the have a higher level similar to the negligent homicide status we have here. Just curious as to what kind of time he might ultimately face. |
Yeah it's kind of like what LBP posted already, and you can go back to the McSorley and Bertuzzi incidents. What they did was on the ice during a competitive game in their sport, but neither plays were accidents or anything that would occur during the normal flow of play. You swing your stick high to hit another guy in the face, you've gone beyond the "natural hockey play" thing. You sucker punch a guy from behind and continue to hit him as he is prone on the ice, and you've gone beyond hockey; that wasn't a fight where two guys engage each other, let's say, and maybe one guy just gets punched out so hard he's seriously injured. (I've never seen that happen, btw, though certainly we've seen guys bloodied in the face from taking a direct shot during a fight.) They were prosecuted and deservedly so.
I just can't imagine that he's not held criminally liable for this. And since this guy died, I also can't see how he gets off with a suspended sentence and doesn't serve jail time. I'm sure he never imagined his actions would cause a guy's death, but when you go over the line like that, you deserve to suffer the consequences. |
For sure.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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