The clippers need to treat the 2021 like it’s their last shot at a title because practically speaking it is.
. . .
If they don’t win next year I can see both Kawhi and PG13 opting out and they will be done for a decade like we were. Except Lebron won’t be coming through that door to save them. I guess the sad thing is they thought Kawhi was Lebron ... but now we know the truth.
Nope - Ballmer will sign-and-trade Pandemic P for another team's headache and will extend "55-games-per-season-Kawhi" as the Clippers string together a run of 48-win seasons.
I don’t think Kawhi wants to stick around if they can’t contend with or without PG13. He will opt out and see what team he can join to win another chip and load manage. But he will want a max and that can get tricky.
31 years old, with a degenerative quad? He'll make Ballmer max extend him and won't leave a penny on the table. Opting out might cost him big $$$ if he misses a lot of time next season. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
Joined: 09 Aug 2004 Posts: 1380 Location: Santa Monica
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:05 am Post subject:
dfchang813 wrote:
My take on Kawhi:
He is a supremely talented basketball player. When healthy one of the best 2 way players in league history. But the problem is that to win a championship, talent ALONE doesn't carry the day. You HAVE to have talent just to have a chance but to win it you need chemistry, cohesiveness, and leadership.
I think Kawhi is fine when he is part of an already championship culture or a very strong cohesive locker room with established leadership. But when that is absent and HE is the one expected to provide these things especially when things are going downhill or there is adversity, then he isn't the guy and when that happens the team fails.
On the Spurs and Raptors, he was the piece that took those teams over the top but those teams already had outstanding culture and outstanding coaches with outstanding leadership.
Kawhi's view of leadership is skewed and you can tell if you pay attention. During the bad break up with the Spurs, Greg Popovich said that Kawhi wasn't a true leader on the Spurs championship teams. And you can tell Kawhi was bothered by it because he responded in an interview saying nobody complained about his leadership when he was winning DPOY and locking down the opposing team's best players, etc, etc.
And there you have the insight into his thought process. He thinks being a leader is showing it on the floor, showing it via production, showing it by doing his work. And it is. But that's not all it is. Sometimes you have to INSPIRE your team to be greater than they are capable of. You have to get your teammates to perform better maybe than even they think the can. That's leadership that Kawhi will never ever have because he isn't built for it.
So when he went to the Clippers with a coach who is moronic compared to Pops and Nurse, with a mental midget like PG13, with a whole bunch of young players who were looking to HIM to provide leadership when the world was literally ending ... guess what? He couldn't do it.
Unlike Lebron who took his team back from a 3-1 deficity, Kawhi was the one who actually choked the 3-1 lead as his team got punched in the mouth and he did nothing but stand by and watch.
As for load management, well that's a tough issue to process. I don't believe for a second that Kawhi is lying or being lazy. I really do think he has a chronic degenerative condition that is affecting his quad and he MUST load manage to remain close to his Hall of Fame self. Again, the problem with this is that load management comes with a steep price and it's a price he never had to pay before because again he benefited from having unique teams that practiced it. The Spurs practically invented modern day load management and so did it very well with Kawhi as they did with Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli. And the Raptors were already a very good team with incredible chemistry and leadership before Kawhi even showed up. He took 22 games off and Toronto calmly went 17-5.
On the Clippers?? That won't work. Load managing on a grease fire of a team like this was a recipe for disaster as we saw. There was a lack of cohesion, lack of chemistry, and finally a simple lack of conditioning.
Kawhi is now realizing that load managing when you aren't on the right team means you won't be successful in the playoffs. If he load manages again, Clippers likely won't get out of the second round again in a stronger West. But if he DOESN'T load manage, maybe he just collapses by the playoffs and can't perform.
The tragedy and stupidity of the situation is that Kawhi would have had a much better chance of success if he had simply stayed in Toronto. With him they would have returned to the Finals and probably given the Lakers a run for their money. Remember Toronto gave the Lakers fits this season in their only two meetings even without Kawhi.
If he really wanted to go home to LA, he simply should have joined the Lakers. From a business and basketball perspective it was the obvious thing to do. Lebron and AD and Vogel would have provided the exact type of culture and balance to allow him to load manage without paying the price just like Spurs and Raptors. He would have dominated the league with Lebron and AD and sewn up another championship with ease while receiving ZERO heat for his load management requirements.
But instead he did the absolute worst thing he could have done. He decided he needed to be the man, to beat Lebron and he had to do it in L.A. to rub the Lakers nose in it. In other words, for a guy with a dying quad muscle, he got fooled into thinking his feces didn't stink. So he strong armed the Clippers into mortgaging their future for the next decade to get Paul George . . . the worst #2 EVER onto the team.
And now it's time to pay the price for his arrogance. The Clippers don't know it but their window is already closed.
But we are forgiving We'll sign him as a free agent in 2022 when he opts out and comes to us with his tail between his legs. But this time he gets the MLE. LoL
_________________ Everyting negative - pressure, challenges - is all an opportunity for me to rise.
-Kobe Bryant
Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 6292 Location: Central Coast
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:21 am Post subject:
Sure was tasty, just re-watched the 4th quarter of the Clippers - Nuggets game 7.
The Clippers have talent, they lack leadership from their stars, and the voices of the other players are not positive. The Clippers need to let Montrell go, ship out Beverly, and possibly Morris and Williams.
They should consider possibly packaging what players they can and get leadership guys like Horford here.
Lue needs to expect more from Leonard and George, they need to show up early for practices and leaving on road trips. They need to take responsibility for their failures as teammates last year. They need to stay humble and not act like they have already won championships as Clippers.
They need to play as a team, not just a collection of off the shelf players. I disagree with Lue, a lot of the problem last year was the lack of cohesion off the floor. Especially in the Covid era, players are going to be somewhat sheltered next year, at least at first. Look at the Lakers, how much the players liked each other, and accepted their roles, no matter what. _________________ LAKERS 2019-2020: NBA World Champions!
Sure was tasty, just re-watched the 4th quarter of the Clippers - Nuggets game 7.
The Clippers have talent, they lack leadership from their stars, and the voices of the other players are not positive. The Clippers need to let Montrell go, ship out Beverly, and possibly Morris and Williams.
They should consider possibly packaging what players they can and get leadership guys like Horford here.
Lue needs to expect more from Leonard and George, they need to show up early for practices and leaving on road trips. They need to take responsibility for their failures as teammates last year. They need to stay humble and not act like they have already won championships as Clippers.
They need to play as a team, not just a collection of off the shelf players. I disagree with Lue, a lot of the problem last year was the lack of cohesion off the floor. Especially in the Covid era, players are going to be somewhat sheltered next year, at least at first. Look at the Lakers, how much the players liked each other, and accepted their roles, no matter what.
hope none of what you said happens and Clippers again act cocky and then crash and burn. only in 1st round this time
It is bizarre that Kawhi wants to have his "own team" but doesn't want to lead it. Very odd dude.
Dude was spoiled being in one of the greatest systems in NBA history with the Spurs and a damn good one in Toronto with leaders already in place. He thought it would be easy to replicate that success anywhere, no leadership skills necessary. He was dead wrong.
Seeing how well Toronto played this year after Kawhi left, it seems like he was the last piece of the puzzle and not necessarily a primary piece of the puzzle for their success. They could probably repeat that type of success if they were able to lure another star the caliber of Kawhi.
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:21 pm Post subject:
lakersken80 wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
It is bizarre that Kawhi wants to have his "own team" but doesn't want to lead it. Very odd dude.
Dude was spoiled being in one of the greatest systems in NBA history with the Spurs and a damn good one in Toronto with leaders already in place. He thought it would be easy to replicate that success anywhere, no leadership skills necessary. He was dead wrong.
Seeing how well Toronto played this year after Kawhi left, it seems like he was the last piece of the puzzle and not necessarily a primary piece of the puzzle for their success. They could probably repeat that type of success if they were able to lure another star the caliber of Kawhi.
Agreed. They were already very good with a Top 25-30 player in Derozan and became a contender with a Top 10 guy. It's not like he dragged a team full of bums to the chip. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 36150 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:05 pm Post subject:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
It is bizarre that Kawhi wants to have his "own team" but doesn't want to lead it. Very odd dude.
Dude was spoiled being in one of the greatest systems in NBA history with the Spurs and a damn good one in Toronto with leaders already in place. He thought it would be easy to replicate that success anywhere, no leadership skills necessary. He was dead wrong.
Seeing how well Toronto played this year after Kawhi left, it seems like he was the last piece of the puzzle and not necessarily a primary piece of the puzzle for their success. They could probably repeat that type of success if they were able to lure another star the caliber of Kawhi.
Agreed. They were already very good with a Top 25-30 player in Derozan and became a contender with a Top 10 guy. It's not like he dragged a team full of bums to the chip.
Do you think they would have won with DeRozan himself instead of Kawhi? What about Jimmy Butler? I feel like any athletic two-way wing who can score in isolation could have filled Kawhi's role. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
It is bizarre that Kawhi wants to have his "own team" but doesn't want to lead it. Very odd dude.
Dude was spoiled being in one of the greatest systems in NBA history with the Spurs and a damn good one in Toronto with leaders already in place. He thought it would be easy to replicate that success anywhere, no leadership skills necessary. He was dead wrong.
Seeing how well Toronto played this year after Kawhi left, it seems like he was the last piece of the puzzle and not necessarily a primary piece of the puzzle for their success. They could probably repeat that type of success if they were able to lure another star the caliber of Kawhi.
Agreed. They were already very good with a Top 25-30 player in Derozan and became a contender with a Top 10 guy. It's not like he dragged a team full of bums to the chip.
Do you think they would have won with DeRozan himself instead of Kawhi? What about Jimmy Butler? I feel like any athletic two-way wing who can score in isolation could have filled Kawhi's role.
Joined: 19 Nov 2007 Posts: 4389 Location: Lake Nacimiento
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:09 pm Post subject:
waterman40 wrote:
Sure was tasty, just re-watched the 4th quarter of the Clippers - Nuggets game 7.
The Clippers have talent, they lack leadership from their stars, and the voices of the other players are not positive. The Clippers need to let Montrell go, ship out Beverly, and possibly Morris and Williams.
They should consider possibly packaging what players they can and get leadership guys like Horford here.
Lue needs to expect more from Leonard and George, they need to show up early for practices and leaving on road trips. They need to take responsibility for their failures as teammates last year. They need to stay humble and not act like they have already won championships as Clippers.
They need to play as a team, not just a collection of off the shelf players. I disagree with Lue, a lot of the problem last year was the lack of cohesion off the floor. Especially in the Covid era, players are going to be somewhat sheltered next year, at least at first. Look at the Lakers, how much the players liked each other, and accepted their roles, no matter what.
And after everything this is what really is pushing PG to work harder this off season....
This is going to be an amazing…. and you are hearing this first…. This is going to be some amazing, amazing training going into this season. I predict I’m at around a 95 by the end of the year.
I honestly thought it was a made up article at first making fun of PG but..... it's real
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:55 pm Post subject:
CandyCanes wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
Agreed. They were already very good with a Top 25-30 player in Derozan and became a contender with a Top 10 guy. It's not like he dragged a team full of bums to the chip.
Do you think they would have won with DeRozan himself instead of Kawhi? What about Jimmy Butler? I feel like any athletic two-way wing who can score in isolation could have filled Kawhi's role.
Not Derozan. He wasn't good enough. I think they might have with Jimmy, the way he played this postseason. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
So according to Marc Stein, Clippers are adding Dan Craig from the Heat, Kenny Atkinson, as well as Billups and Larry Drew
As much as people give J-Kidd (bleep), I'd still take Kidd/Hollins/Handy over that lot, low key
Kenny Atkinson is a solid basketball mind.
Honestly, I prefer Kenny with a developing team like the Thunder, particularly as a HC
But as an assistant I do have to give the Clips credit, it's overall a good get (as are Craig and the other two). Despite that, I thought Cassell/Lue was a good supporting cast to Doc, and look what happened. Until they are proven, I'll rate our lot over theirs _________________ #18 next...
So according to Marc Stein, Clippers are adding Dan Craig from the Heat, Kenny Atkinson, as well as Billups and Larry Drew
As much as people give J-Kidd (bleep), I'd still take Kidd/Hollins/Handy over that lot, low key
Easily. More like high key. That group is not going to out-strategize our staff, especially with Vogel leading the way. His gameplans are elite. _________________ “Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
- John Piper
So according to Marc Stein, Clippers are adding Dan Craig from the Heat, Kenny Atkinson, as well as Billups and Larry Drew
As much as people give J-Kidd (bleep), I'd still take Kidd/Hollins/Handy over that lot, low key
Easily. More like high key. That group is not going to out-strategize our staff, especially with Vogel leading the way. His gameplans are elite.
Yeah, Vogel's a top 5 coach in the league now. Having defensive-minded coaches like Hollins and Kidd behind him obviously helps, too, but Vogel's the main brains behind it all. Handy is easily one of the best pure assistants in the league, too
I'd love to get an offensive-minded assistant, although I'm very happy with our current group _________________ #18 next...
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 36150 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:15 pm Post subject:
alleyoop wrote:
Judah wrote:
alleyoop wrote:
So according to Marc Stein, Clippers are adding Dan Craig from the Heat, Kenny Atkinson, as well as Billups and Larry Drew
As much as people give J-Kidd (bleep), I'd still take Kidd/Hollins/Handy over that lot, low key
Easily. More like high key. That group is not going to out-strategize our staff, especially with Vogel leading the way. His gameplans are elite.
Yeah, Vogel's a top 5 coach in the league now. Having defensive-minded coaches like Hollins and Kidd behind him obviously helps, too, but Vogel's the main brains behind it all. Handy is easily one of the best pure assistants in the league, too
I'd love to get an offensive-minded assistant, although I'm very happy with our current group
Mike D’Antoni is available. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Aside from AC, is there a way Clips get KLove. His Lue / LA ties seems like a major possibility
They can give Cleveland Paul George
Kevin Love is EXACTLY what the Clippers need!
DO IT, Ballmer!!!!!!!!!!!!!! _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
I'm really surprised Atkinson did not get work again. I thought he did such a good job with the Nets pre-Kyrie. I thought he would have been great for the Knicks, who instead went with a guy like Thibs, who I don't think will work out with their young roster.
Atkinson would have also been really good with the Pelicans.
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