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epak
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 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Broken record here:
Rendon (FA), Lux, Muncy, Turner
Smith?
Bellinger, Castellanos (FA), Verdugo
Trade Corey + AJ for a pitcher
Love the combination of lefties and righties. |
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DrWolf
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | DrWolf wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Hindsight is 20/20 but Dodgers not trading for Justin Verlander is probably why the Dodgers won't be winning a World Series anytime soon and why the Astros are a World Series regular now. The front office wanted to save a couple of bucks at the time but in the end the downside was that it costed them time, money and effort. |
I think your being a little too drastic. Number 1, we went to 2 WS back-to-back. If memory serves me right the Atlanta Braves made it 2 years in a row, and 3rd year they fell short of making it. They came back in 95 to win the WS. The winning formula is there, just gotta add and subtract pieces to make it happen. |
The Braves made the World Series 5 times that decade, and won it once....regardless, they were still much more successful than the Dodgers. There is no guarantee this team will ever win a World Series with the current makeup, especially if we keep repeating the same mistakes in the off season/trade deadline. |
that is true, but i think that this loss will motivate them. At least i hope they approach the all hands on deck route
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loslakersss
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| I would say that we have a better chance of winning the World Series than we do at signing a superstar free-agent like Cole or Rendon. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | DrWolf wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Hindsight is 20/20 but Dodgers not trading for Justin Verlander is probably why the Dodgers won't be winning a World Series anytime soon and why the Astros are a World Series regular now. The front office wanted to save a couple of bucks at the time but in the end the downside was that it costed them time, money and effort. |
I think your being a little too drastic. Number 1, we went to 2 WS back-to-back. If memory serves me right the Atlanta Braves made it 2 years in a row, and 3rd year they fell short of making it. They came back in 95 to win the WS. The winning formula is there, just gotta add and subtract pieces to make it happen. |
The Braves made the World Series 5 times that decade, and won it once....regardless, they were still much more successful than the Dodgers. There is no guarantee this team will ever win a World Series with the current makeup, especially if we keep repeating the same mistakes in the off season/trade deadline. |
One thing the Braves did was sign Maddux, and they did lose with him in 93, but he was a huge part of them winning in 95 and getting to the World Series in 97 (and helping them go up 2-0 in that series; unfortunately for the Braves their offense disappeared after that).
If they decided to be cheap and not sign Maddux, I doubt they win it in 95 and there is no way they make the playoffs in 93.
Verlander was clearly better than Darvish. He was just riskier because he was so expensive.
Last edited by Steve007 on Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:01 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryWest_44 wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Hindsight is 20/20 but Dodgers not trading for Justin Verlander is probably why the Dodgers won't be winning a World Series anytime soon and why the Astros are a World Series regular now. The front office wanted to save a couple of bucks at the time but in the end the downside was that it costed them time, money and effort. |
That was pivotal miss & they know it -- time to correct it by signing Cole otherwise we just have Buehler and a bunch of playoff pitcher hacks |
Having Buehler and Ryu as your top 2 is still really good. If the team loses Ryu and picks up Cole, is it really that big of an improvement after the year Ryu had? The #3 and #4 spots in the rotation were a bigger problem. Kershaw was mediocre in his start and Hill wasn’t ready.
Last edited by Steve007 on Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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^
It's a stunningly massive upgrade. Again, we need to be thinking bigger than getting through the 162-game regular season. Ryu is a finesse pitcher. Give me power pitching starters in the postseason, as many as I can get, especially if they are of a Cy Young Award caliber. If Gerrit Cole were facing Ryu in the postseason, let's just say if both teams had good offenses like the Astros and Yankees do (so say Ryu was on the Yankees), the Astros would be big favorites in that game.
Ryu is not a workhorse, and who knows if he will even be healthy during the postseason. He started to break down after about 120-ish innings this year and wasn't the same after that.
Say Cole could get an 7-year, $210MM deal. Might that not look good in the last couple years of the deal? Yeah, maybe. But as a fan, I don't care, quite frankly. The Dodgers have virtually no long-term payroll on the books right now. Cole would be an opportunity to stack the deck for a few years of his prime, and imagine if Urias and/or May happen to pop as well. Of any big-name free agent over the past 2-3 years, he's easily the one that could have the biggest postseason impact for us, not to mention regular season impact as well. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | ^
It's a stunningly massive upgrade. Again, we need to be thinking bigger than getting through the 162-game regular season. Ryu is a finesse pitcher. Give me power pitching starters in the postseason, as many as I can get, especially if they are of a Cy Young Award caliber. If Gerrit Cole were facing Ryu in the postseason, let's just say if both teams had good offenses like the Astros and Yankees do (so say Ryu was on the Yankees), the Astros would be big favorites in that game.
Ryu is not a workhorse, and who knows if he will even be healthy during the postseason. He started to break down after about 120-ish innings this year and wasn't the same after that.
Say Cole could get an 7-year, $210MM deal. Might that not look good in the last couple years of the deal? Yeah, maybe. But as a fan, I don't care, quite frankly. The Dodgers have virtually no long-term payroll on the books right now. Cole would be an opportunity to stack the deck for a few years of his prime, and imagine if Urias and/or May happen to pop as well. Of any big-name free agent over the past 2-3 years, he's easily the one that could have the biggest postseason impact for us, not to mention regular season impact as well. |
I agree with almost all of this. And I am looking at it thinking about the playoffs. Imagine this scenario, even though I’m probably dreaming. The team keeps Ryu AND adds Cole. Suddenly the top 3 is Cole, followed by Ryu and Buehler (or Buehler and Ryu). That’s a lot better than Cole, Buehler, and question marks after that.
My point is the rotation needs to be deeper. This was a major edge for the Nationals in that first round series. It’s amazing watching the Nationals throw their fourth best starter out there and watching him shut teams down. The Astros have the advantage of a deeper rotation too. It doesn’t surprise me that the teams with the deepest starting rotations in each league are the champions of those leagues.
So even if the team picks up Cole and loses Ryu, I feel that boosts the top of the rotation, but also leaves a major weakness unaddressed. Combine that with the bullpen issues and it’s concerning. Buehler and Ryu were not the problem. Kershaw and Hill started in 2 of the 3 losses. I know people said Kershaw had a quality start, and it was fine for a regular season start, but in the playoffs, it was a mediocre performance at best IMO (I’m talking about his game 2 start, not his relief appearance). I’m a fan of Hill but he just wasn’t ready after coming back from injury. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I think we can cross off the thought of signing Cole and keeping Ryu. I think that Hill could be back on a low guarantee with incentives, because he doesn't seem ready to hang up his spikes and he has been effective--very effective--when healthy. Doesn't hurt to bring him back into the fold if it's a low-money guarantee, so long as you aren't counting on him for anything. But Ryu, yeah, he won't be back if we signed Cole.
The Astros actually have not had any depth beyond their 3 starters this postseason. I wonder if that comes back to get them in this World Series. Wade Miley was an effective starter for them for almost all of the regular season, and then, oddly, he totally went off the rails late in the season. So much so, in fact, that he hasn't even been on any of the postseason rosters for them. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | Hindsight is 20/20 but Dodgers not trading for Justin Verlander is probably why the Dodgers won't be winning a World Series anytime soon and why the Astros are a World Series regular now. The front office wanted to save a couple of bucks at the time but in the end the downside was that it costed them time, money and effort. |
| lakersken80 wrote: | | There is no guarantee this team will ever win a World Series with the current makeup, especially if we keep repeating the same mistakes in the off season/trade deadline. |
If Justin Verlander is the reason why the Dodgers won't be winning the WS anytime soon, then couldn't they fix that problem by signing Gerrit Cole? |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | Kershaw was mediocre in his start and Hill wasn’t ready. |
If Kershaw was mediocre in his start then what was Strasburg in game 5? Seems like they both put up the same numbers. |
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loslakersss
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | Kershaw was mediocre in his start and Hill wasn’t ready. |
If Kershaw was mediocre in his start then what was Strasburg in game 5? Seems like they both put up the same numbers. |
Right. And Verlander in game 5 last week, IIRC. But he's not getting killed for it. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | Kershaw was mediocre in his start and Hill wasn’t ready. |
If Kershaw was mediocre in his start then what was Strasburg in game 5? Seems like they both put up the same numbers. |
Like the positivity and rationale here. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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^
Yes, Kershaw's Game 2 start didn't kill us. His relief appearance sure as hell did, though. He seemingly can't escape a postseason without a "Shakespearean tragedy." |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | Kershaw was mediocre in his start and Hill wasn’t ready. |
If Kershaw was mediocre in his start then what was Strasburg in game 5? Seems like they both put up the same numbers. |
Yeah I would say that was a mediocre performance by him. I was happy with Strasberg giving up 3 runs in 6 innings. One reason he won that game is the Dodgers didn’t score a run after he left the game.
3 runs in 6 innings gives a pitcher a 4.50 era. It’s not a good performance in the playoffs. It’s not bad either; you gave your team 6 innings and kept your team in the game. But in the playoffs, if your bullpen gives up any runs it becomes really difficult to win because then the other team is scoring 4, 5 or maybe even more runs. It’s much easier to win in the regular season against many of the weaker teams that have weaker pitching staffs, and when #4 and #5 starters are sometimes pitching.
Giving up 4 runs in 6 innings definitely isn’t good and I personally wouldn’t say it’s mediocre, so I don’t see why 3 runs in 6 innings is much better.
It’s true that Kershaw and Strasberg did get on a roll and looked pretty good in most of those starts, but they also had a rough couple of innings at the beginning of those starts. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| The thing is, Kershaw's ERA in the postseason is just a shade under 4.50. If every single outing he had in the postseason was 6 innings and 3 ER allowed, you'd be in every single game. He's pitched games a lot better than that in the postseason, of course. The problem is that he's been prone to those blow-up outings, I think at least 40% of the time. Those are killers. He's so reliable in the regular season, and he's been anything-but in the postseason. |
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oasisdude77
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | The thing is, Kershaw's ERA in the postseason is just a shade under 4.50. If every single outing he had in the postseason was 6 innings and 3 ER allowed, you'd be in every single game. He's pitched games a lot better than that in the postseason, of course. The problem is that he's been prone to those blow-up outings, I think at least 40% of the time. Those are killers. He's so reliable in the regular season, and he's been anything-but in the postseason. |
Basically the bolded is spot on
Not denying that he's pitched some great games in the playoffs.
- game 4 of the NLDS
- game 2 of the 2016 NLCS
- game 1 of the 2017 WS
- game 2 of last years NLDS
But his problem is that he implodes at the worst times.
- game 6 of the 2013 NLCS
- game 1 of the 2014 NLDS, he blows a 6-1 (?) lead
- game 6 of the 2016 NLCS
- game 5 of the 2017 WS (almost unforgivable)
- game 5 of the 2019 NLDS (still pissed)
And let's not forget the times where we gave him the ball in an elimination game and, while he doesn't implode, he can't carry us to victory.
I don't expect him to be perfect but my god, to get paid the big bucks he does, you'd expect him to be able to hold onto big leads late in games.
Last edited by oasisdude77 on Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | Kershaw was mediocre in his start and Hill wasn’t ready. |
If Kershaw was mediocre in his start then what was Strasburg in game 5? Seems like they both put up the same numbers. |
Yeah I would say that was a mediocre performance by him. I was happy with Strasberg giving up 3 runs in 6 innings. One reason he won that game is the Dodgers didn’t score a run after he left the game.
3 runs in 6 innings gives a pitcher a 4.50 era. It’s not a good performance in the playoffs. It’s not bad either; you gave your team 6 innings and kept your team in the game. But in the playoffs, if your bullpen gives up any runs it becomes really difficult to win because then the other team is scoring 4, 5 or maybe even more runs. It’s much easier to win in the regular season against many of the weaker teams that have weaker pitching staffs, and when #4 and #5 starters are sometimes pitching.
Giving up 4 runs in 6 innings definitely isn’t good and I personally wouldn’t say it’s mediocre, so I don’t see why 3 runs in 6 innings is much better.
It’s true that Kershaw and Strasberg did get on a roll and looked pretty good in most of those starts, but they also had a rough couple of innings at the beginning of those starts. |
Yeah, but the point is, Strasburg was praised for his performance in game 5. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, just throwing this in there: if we do sign Cole, I would also sign Martin Maldonado. He is Cole's personal catcher with the Astros, is amazing with all defensive aspects of the game, and he can be Will Smith's 1B next season. Heck, if Smith faceplants, maybe Keibert Ruiz works his way into the picture. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | The thing is, Kershaw's ERA in the postseason is just a shade under 4.50. If every single outing he had in the postseason was 6 innings and 3 ER allowed, you'd be in every single game. He's pitched games a lot better than that in the postseason, of course. The problem is that he's been prone to those blow-up outings, I think at least 40% of the time. Those are killers. He's so reliable in the regular season, and he's been anything-but in the postseason. |
If he never did better than 6 innings and 3 runs allowed wouldn’t that be a big problem? I want more from my ace. He would win some of the blow-up outings and lose some of the gems he pitched if every outing was 3 runs in 6 innings. So I doubt his overall record would be much better.
He would avoid the embarrassing blow-up starts which really get him criticized, but over time, allowing 3 runs in 6 innings every start would give him a record much worse than his regular season record, a 4.50 era, probably zero rings, and people would start to notice and criticize him.
Yes, the blow-ups are a BIG problem, but I think there will always be a significant problem if your era stays at 4.50 in the playoffs over a long period of time.
Last edited by Steve007 on Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | Kershaw was mediocre in his start and Hill wasn’t ready. |
If Kershaw was mediocre in his start then what was Strasburg in game 5? Seems like they both put up the same numbers. |
Yeah I would say that was a mediocre performance by him. I was happy with Strasberg giving up 3 runs in 6 innings. One reason he won that game is the Dodgers didn’t score a run after he left the game.
3 runs in 6 innings gives a pitcher a 4.50 era. It’s not a good performance in the playoffs. It’s not bad either; you gave your team 6 innings and kept your team in the game. But in the playoffs, if your bullpen gives up any runs it becomes really difficult to win because then the other team is scoring 4, 5 or maybe even more runs. It’s much easier to win in the regular season against many of the weaker teams that have weaker pitching staffs, and when #4 and #5 starters are sometimes pitching.
Giving up 4 runs in 6 innings definitely isn’t good and I personally wouldn’t say it’s mediocre, so I don’t see why 3 runs in 6 innings is much better.
It’s true that Kershaw and Strasberg did get on a roll and looked pretty good in most of those starts, but they also had a rough couple of innings at the beginning of those starts. |
Yeah, but the point is, Strasburg was praised for his performance in game 5. |
If he was I don’t really agree with that, unless people praised him for his overall performance in the series. He allowed 1 run in 6 innings in game 2. When giving up 3 runs in 6 innings is your bad start then you’re doing pretty well. |
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ExPatLkrFan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| The demigod that is Gerrit Cole has given up 5 runs in 5 innings. Oops. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | So, if the Dodgers are so horrible as many are suggesting, I guess the Cardinals should be disbanded?
Again, in a short series anything can happen. The Padres are capable of winning a five game series against the Astros.
The biggest difference between an all star major league pitcher and an average one is consistency: They both are capable of tossing a shutout on a given night, when they are "on". The Nationals not only have three starting pitchers who are "on", but four. And if good pitching will beat good hitting, certainly great pitching will as well. If they stay "on" they will be hard to beat, but pitching requires such exactness that the slightest change in a delivery or a release point changes great to good or good to poor. And everything begins anew the next series.
Also, it is interesting that the team with worst bullpen in the NL is in the World Series. One must compliment Martinez on how he used his bullpen. That is not a compliment I can extend to Roberts. The data said that Kershaw's worst inning, by far, was his first so his effectiveness as a reliever would have to be suspect.
1st inning 5.79
2nd inning 1.29
3rd inning 3.21
4th inning 2.89
5th inning 2.57
6th inning 2.08
7th inning 3.65 |
The Nationals were always a lot better than people thought in my opinion. They won 93 games after starting off 12 games under .500. That’s tough to do. If Josh Hader did his job these playoffs would be looking a lot different. |
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | ^
It's a stunningly massive upgrade. Again, we need to be thinking bigger than getting through the 162-game regular season. Ryu is a finesse pitcher. Give me power pitching starters in the postseason, as many as I can get, especially if they are of a Cy Young Award caliber. If Gerrit Cole were facing Ryu in the postseason, let's just say if both teams had good offenses like the Astros and Yankees do (so say Ryu was on the Yankees), the Astros would be big favorites in that game.
Ryu is not a workhorse, and who knows if he will even be healthy during the postseason. He started to break down after about 120-ish innings this year and wasn't the same after that.
Say Cole could get an 7-year, $210MM deal. Might that not look good in the last couple years of the deal? Yeah, maybe. But as a fan, I don't care, quite frankly. The Dodgers have virtually no long-term payroll on the books right now. Cole would be an opportunity to stack the deck for a few years of his prime, and imagine if Urias and/or May happen to pop as well. Of any big-name free agent over the past 2-3 years, he's easily the one that could have the biggest postseason impact for us, not to mention regular season impact as well. |
as usual, I agree.
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ExPatLkrFan wrote: | | The demigod that is Gerrit Cole has given up 5 runs in 5 innings. Oops. |
It's his first loss in 5 months. If you think that makes me want him less, yeah, I'm not that person. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | Kershaw was mediocre in his start and Hill wasn’t ready. |
If Kershaw was mediocre in his start then what was Strasburg in game 5? Seems like they both put up the same numbers. |
Yeah I would say that was a mediocre performance by him. I was happy with Strasberg giving up 3 runs in 6 innings. One reason he won that game is the Dodgers didn’t score a run after he left the game.
3 runs in 6 innings gives a pitcher a 4.50 era. It’s not a good performance in the playoffs. It’s not bad either; you gave your team 6 innings and kept your team in the game. But in the playoffs, if your bullpen gives up any runs it becomes really difficult to win because then the other team is scoring 4, 5 or maybe even more runs. It’s much easier to win in the regular season against many of the weaker teams that have weaker pitching staffs, and when #4 and #5 starters are sometimes pitching.
Giving up 4 runs in 6 innings definitely isn’t good and I personally wouldn’t say it’s mediocre, so I don’t see why 3 runs in 6 innings is much better.
It’s true that Kershaw and Strasberg did get on a roll and looked pretty good in most of those starts, but they also had a rough couple of innings at the beginning of those starts. |
Yeah, but the point is, Strasburg was praised for his performance in game 5. |
If he was I don’t really agree with that, unless people praised him for his overall performance in the series. He allowed 1 run in 6 innings in game 2. When giving up 3 runs in 6 innings is your bad start then you’re doing pretty well. |
Yeah he was credited with keeping them in the game to allow them a chance to win.
I’ve yet to see anyone call his performance “mediocre” |
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