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LongBeachPoly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 16265
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | I wouldn't be crying any tears if Friedman leaves. And no, I'm not a spoiled fan. Yes, he's done some great things, but I think this regime's weaknesses have truly played a big part in why the Dodgers don't have a ring during his tenure. |
The new regime would be under the same financial constraints
It’s hard to find a capable GM able to win a title under the same financial constraints.
Most of our money is tied up already.
Only different thing the new regime can do is start trading away prospects to win now like Dombroski did in Boston.
They can also fire Roberts and institute a new approach at the plate. |
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Vishnu Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 16558
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think Friedman is the best executive in baseball and maybe all four American major sports. Bringing him back is the most important move the Dodgers need to make this winter. |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 32317 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Vishnu wrote: | I think Friedman is the best executive in baseball and maybe all four American major sports. Bringing him back is the most important move the Dodgers need to make this winter. |
With all due respect, Bill Belichick is and it's not even remotely close. And yes, he makes all of their decisions. |
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Vishnu Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 16558
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | Vishnu wrote: | I think Friedman is the best executive in baseball and maybe all four American major sports. Bringing him back is the most important move the Dodgers need to make this winter. |
With all due respect, Bill Belichick is and it's not even remotely close. And yes, he makes all of their decisions. |
OK. Just baseball then. I do think it’s kind of apples and oranges though since Belichick also has the benefit of coaching his team. How much of his success is due to him being the greatest coach of all time as opposed to a great executive? Belichick also only oversees the players on his roster. Friedman oversees the entire organization, Low A to the majors. I’m not going to pretend to know every single player in the minors other than the top ones, but I think it’s impressive for the Dodgers to consistently have a top team in the majors and consistently have a top minor-league system. That’s rare and I think Friedman is the main person responsible for that. |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 32317 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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^
He's not a bad executive, and yes, we've won a lot of games, won divisions, advanced to two World Series, and we have a great pipeline of prospects. But that doesn't mean that he hasn't made missteps, or perhaps not made the right moves to help the big league product get over the hump. They extended Kershaw, for one thing, and they've made a lot of risky free agency signings that have not panned out, predictably. They seem to have an aversion to signing frequently-injured players. Yes, they build amazing depth on their rosters and they have a lot of versatile players, and that certainly serves you well during a 162-game regular season. But we should be thinking bigger than division titles, at this point. As it stands right now, we don't have a starting pitcher that strikes fear in an opposing team other than Buehler. To me, that's not good enough. Guys like Scott Kazmir and Brandon McCarthy were never going to be signings that moved the needle. And before you say that those didn't hurt us, well, if they aren't on the payroll, maybe we feel no issue with picking up Verlander's contract. We haven't built a dependable bullpen over the past two offseasons now, and before anyone says "but we led the NL in bullpen ERA this year", we still had virtually no one to trust in the bullpen in the postseason. Just because we work miracles with guys like Dylan Floro (2018) and Casey Sadler (2019) to get guys out in the regular season, those are not viable answers for getting guys out in the postseason.
I'd be an idiot to say that he has done a poor job. We've won too much to say that. I'm simply saying that, with what a GM would be stepping into, I am not going to be shedding tears if he walks. I think someone else could do a pretty good job with what we have. Especially if that new executive's first order of business would be to can Roberts. I know that none of that will happen, though, and that he'll be back. |
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LongBeachPoly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 16265
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Vishnu wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: | Vishnu wrote: | I think Friedman is the best executive in baseball and maybe all four American major sports. Bringing him back is the most important move the Dodgers need to make this winter. |
With all due respect, Bill Belichick is and it's not even remotely close. And yes, he makes all of their decisions. |
OK. Just baseball then. I do think it’s kind of apples and oranges though since Belichick also has the benefit of coaching his team. How much of his success is due to him being the greatest coach of all time as opposed to a great executive? Belichick also only oversees the players on his roster. Friedman oversees the entire organization, Low A to the majors. I’m not going to pretend to know every single player in the minors other than the top ones, but I think it’s impressive for the Dodgers to consistently have a top team in the majors and consistently have a top minor-league system. That’s rare and I think Friedman is the main person responsible for that. |
Just wanna comment how funny it is that you were the one to compare all 4 sports then you brought up a counterpoint against yourself by saying it’s comparing apples n oranges |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 32317 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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I just realized that I wrote "they seem to have an aversion to signing frequently-injured players", and I meant to say that they have a proclivity towards it, not an aversion. Oops! |
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Vishnu Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 16558
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:14 am Post subject: |
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LongBeachPoly wrote: | Vishnu wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: | Vishnu wrote: | I think Friedman is the best executive in baseball and maybe all four American major sports. Bringing him back is the most important move the Dodgers need to make this winter. |
With all due respect, Bill Belichick is and it's not even remotely close. And yes, he makes all of their decisions. |
OK. Just baseball then. I do think it’s kind of apples and oranges though since Belichick also has the benefit of coaching his team. How much of his success is due to him being the greatest coach of all time as opposed to a great executive? Belichick also only oversees the players on his roster. Friedman oversees the entire organization, Low A to the majors. I’m not going to pretend to know every single player in the minors other than the top ones, but I think it’s impressive for the Dodgers to consistently have a top team in the majors and consistently have a top minor-league system. That’s rare and I think Friedman is the main person responsible for that. |
Just wanna comment how funny it is that you were the one to compare all 4 sports then you brought up a counterpoint against yourself by saying it’s comparing apples n oranges |
Well BB is somewhat unique in that he’s a coach and executive, while Friedman isn’t. The fact that BB is the greatest coach in the history of his sport makes it harder to compare the two. I admittedly didn’t think of him when making the initial comment
Last edited by Vishnu on Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vishnu Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 16558
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:20 am Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | ^
He's not a bad executive, and yes, we've won a lot of games, won divisions, advanced to two World Series, and we have a great pipeline of prospects. But that doesn't mean that he hasn't made missteps, or perhaps not made the right moves to help the big league product get over the hump. They extended Kershaw, for one thing, and they've made a lot of risky free agency signings that have not panned out, predictably. They seem to have an aversion to signing frequently-injured players. Yes, they build amazing depth on their rosters and they have a lot of versatile players, and that certainly serves you well during a 162-game regular season. But we should be thinking bigger than division titles, at this point. As it stands right now, we don't have a starting pitcher that strikes fear in an opposing team other than Buehler. To me, that's not good enough. Guys like Scott Kazmir and Brandon McCarthy were never going to be signings that moved the needle. And before you say that those didn't hurt us, well, if they aren't on the payroll, maybe we feel no issue with picking up Verlander's contract. We haven't built a dependable bullpen over the past two offseasons now, and before anyone says "but we led the NL in bullpen ERA this year", we still had virtually no one to trust in the bullpen in the postseason. Just because we work miracles with guys like Dylan Floro (2018) and Casey Sadler (2019) to get guys out in the regular season, those are not viable answers for getting guys out in the postseason.
I'd be an idiot to say that he has done a poor job. We've won too much to say that. I'm simply saying that, with what a GM would be stepping into, I am not going to be shedding tears if he walks. I think someone else could do a pretty good job with what we have. Especially if that new executive's first order of business would be to can Roberts. I know that none of that will happen, though, and that he'll be back. |
I think the issue with him leaving is that ownership would just try to replace him with the next Friedman. We might as well keep the real one. I agree he’s not infallible. Nobody is. With that said, there is no one else I’d rather have in charge than Friedman. The Red Sox want him for a reason. |
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LongBeachPoly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 16265
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Vishnu wrote: | LongBeachPoly wrote: | Vishnu wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: | Vishnu wrote: | I think Friedman is the best executive in baseball and maybe all four American major sports. Bringing him back is the most important move the Dodgers need to make this winter. |
With all due respect, Bill Belichick is and it's not even remotely close. And yes, he makes all of their decisions. |
OK. Just baseball then. I do think it’s kind of apples and oranges though since Belichick also has the benefit of coaching his team. How much of his success is due to him being the greatest coach of all time as opposed to a great executive? Belichick also only oversees the players on his roster. Friedman oversees the entire organization, Low A to the majors. I’m not going to pretend to know every single player in the minors other than the top ones, but I think it’s impressive for the Dodgers to consistently have a top team in the majors and consistently have a top minor-league system. That’s rare and I think Friedman is the main person responsible for that. |
Just wanna comment how funny it is that you were the one to compare all 4 sports then you brought up a counterpoint against yourself by saying it’s comparing apples n oranges |
Well BB is somewhat unique in that he’s a coach and executive, while Friedman isn’t. The fact that BB is the greatest coach in the history of his sport makes it harder to compare the two. I admittedly didn’t think of him when making the initial comment |
Why would it matter? Would you be able to better evaluate Belichick the executive if Parcells was the coach and they had the same success as they do now?
You'd still have the same issues in that you wouldn't know if the success was due to the moves that Belichick the executive made or to the coaching of Bill Parcells. |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | “.@jonmorosi indicated on the MLB morning lineup podcast that the Dodgers could be losing faith in Corey Seager.“ |
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LonzoLegend2 Starting Rotation
Joined: 05 Aug 2017 Posts: 680
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Freese just announced his retirement. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144629 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:30 am Post subject: |
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LonzoLegend2 wrote: | Freese just announced his retirement. |
Love Freese, he helped bring the Cards a title. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 32317 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | Quote: | “.@jonmorosi indicated on the MLB morning lineup podcast that the Dodgers could be losing faith in Corey Seager.“ |
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See, Vishnu, just put me in charge of the Dodgers' personnel moves and we'll be fine.
In all seriousness, Lux is a natural SS. Muncy can play 2B. We have options. |
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LongBeachPoly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 16265
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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loslakersss wrote: | LakerLanny wrote: | DuncanIdaho wrote: |
Joc's one of our only guys that regularly steps up in the post season. I'd hate to lose him. |
I agree, don't get rid of the clutch guys. |
We already shipped out Puig. Granted he had his issues but he was CLUTCH |
Quote: | Several other players are due raises in arbitration. Cody Bellinger is expected to attain the biggest salary jump through arbitration, according to MLB Trade Rumors. Bellinger, the likely National League MVP, made $605,000 in 2019. He is projected to earn $11.6 million next season, his first in arbitration.
Max Muncy, also arbitration-eligible for the first time, is projected to earn $4.6 million after making $575,000 in 2019. Corey Seager, arbitration-eligible for the second time, is projected to have his salary hike from $4 million to $7.1 million.
Joc Pederson, eligible for arbitration for a third and final time, is projected to make $8.5 million next season. The outfielder made $5 million in 2019. He posted career bests in home runs (36), batting average (.249), and on-base-plus-slugging percentage (.876), but was not trusted to face left-handed pitchers. Pederson went 11 for 49 with 15 strikeouts, one walk and no home runs in just 50 plate appearances against lefties.
The Dodgers put Pederson on the trade market last season. With Alex Verdugo’s emergence, A.J. Pollock under contract for at least three more years, and Bellinger solidified as a superstar to round out the outfield, the club could again consider trading Pederson to avoid paying his salary and bolster another area. Last winter, the Dodgers traded Yasiel Puig, another outfielder, as part of a package for prospects before he was due a raise in his third year of arbitration.
https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/story/2019-10-11/andrew-friedmans-status-unresolved-dodgers-roster-likely-wont-change-much
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ribeye Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 12646
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | adkindo wrote: | Quote: | “.@jonmorosi indicated on the MLB morning lineup podcast that the Dodgers could be losing faith in Corey Seager.“ |
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See, Vishnu, just put me in charge of the Dodgers' personnel moves and we'll be fine.
In all seriousness, Lux is a natural SS. Muncy can play 2B. We have options. |
Just looking at his minor league numbers, and from what I've read, I'm not sure Lux is a starting MLB shortstop.
I will add, and have posted, that yes, Seager has not lived up to the hype, but based on WAR, he was something like fifth or sixth best SS in the NL at 4.0 (fourth best WAR on the team)--though ESPN does not show WAR comparisons now to confirm my memory. He is only 25 and still a good value and will be for the next two years. _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 32317 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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^
I would much rather have Joc at the plate in a big spot than Seager. I know Seager has more service time left, but I'm just saying. Again, I'm trying to think beyond a 162-game season, at this point. WAR also suggests that Kershaw is one of the league's best starters, which he, quite frankly, isn't. Yes, sometimes I've cited WAR on here, so I'm guilty of it, too.
As it relates to Lux, sure, I suppose he's no guarantee to be a better hitter than Seager during his career. I'm just saying that he's a better SS than 2B in terms of defense, and that Seager isn't a good defender. Despite the fact that the Baseball Reference defensive WAR metrics give him 1.4 WAR, other stats like UZR/150 paint him in a negative light. And if Lux doesn't work out, we do have Taylor and Kike as fallback options at SS. And hey, since we're citing WAR, Taylor put up 2.4 WAR this season in only 366 AB's.
I really could see how the Dodgers might be souring on Seager, because he's just such an undisciplined hitter. |
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ribeye Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 12646
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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I do hope that with time, people will regain some perspective. As has been stated time and time again, with a five game series, anything can happen. What will always be a solid measure of team is the journey, the grueling 162 game schedule, and setting a record for a franchise in the league since 1880 is a major accomplishment. Sure, the destination, the World Series, is the ultimate goal, but a lot of really, really good teams don't win that prize. One of two quite exceptional teams, Houston or NYY, won't this year (make that three with the Dodgers). It won't make either a bad team or one that needs major revision. _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 32317 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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^
And after watching the last two postseason runs especially, Dave Roberts does not deserve to keep his job, and Clayton Kershaw does not deserve to be trusted with a high-leverage situation ever again. To me, these should be basic things, but they won't be with our team, and it shows that, despite a lot of success, there's something wrong with our process. Yes, we've developed players well and picked up scrap heap guys that have panned out for us, but our free agency history under this regime leaves something to be desired, and it has absolutely hurt us on the field when it's mattered the most. Again, Kazmir, McCarthy, Joe Kelly, extending Kershaw when we didn't have to, etc. They spent big money on Kershaw when he's no longer an elite talent, and they have been unwilling to spend on big free agents that have been in their primes. I'm not saying we should have signed Harper or Machado to the deals that they've received, but the fact remains that we are a mega-budget team and we are approach free agency as if we're a mid-market franchise.
I'm not OK with the status quo. And it's going to be very difficult for me to stay emotionally invested during the regular season if it's the status quo. |
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LongBeachPoly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 16265
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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We really have become the 90s Braves huh? Seems like we'll probably be favorites to win the NL West again next year, our 8th straight. |
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oasisdude77 Star Player
Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 2737
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:35 am Post subject: |
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LonzoLegend2 wrote: | oasisdude77 wrote: | Snipes wrote: | Kershaw is not the reason Bellinger went from mvp to being a bust.
He is not the reason Corey Seager can’t even make contact.
He is not the reason why jansen has completely lost it as closer.
He is not the reason why Kelly/Pollock did more harm to the team than good.
He is not the reason that year after year Dave Roberts does NOTHING to prove himself - and in fact sabotages games with his giddy attitude.
This team has deep issues - especially in the playoffs. Kershaw might be 1/3 the problem but he’s not the whole problem. |
And I do agree about Seager. I'd actually prefer Machado over him at this point. His plate approach has pissed me off the whole year and he NEVER adjusted. He should be getting more flack as, at least, Cody manage to get a few hits. |
Machado was a complete disaster since the ASG while Corey picked up his game after a horrid start. Still would trade Seager for an arm and/or prospects as Lux should be ready to take the helm at SS for the foreseeable future. |
Perhaps but he still actually produced last postseason. Key homeruns in games 2 & 4 of the LDS, homerun in game 1 of the LCS, got on base and scored the winning run in that epic game 4 and bunted his way on (hello Cody!) in game 7 with two outs that brought Cody up who followed with a two run shot.
Yeah, he had his issues, but still produced a helluva lot more that Seager did this postseason. |
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LongBeachPoly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 16265
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:29 am Post subject: |
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oasisdude77 wrote: | LonzoLegend2 wrote: | oasisdude77 wrote: | Snipes wrote: | Kershaw is not the reason Bellinger went from mvp to being a bust.
He is not the reason Corey Seager can’t even make contact.
He is not the reason why jansen has completely lost it as closer.
He is not the reason why Kelly/Pollock did more harm to the team than good.
He is not the reason that year after year Dave Roberts does NOTHING to prove himself - and in fact sabotages games with his giddy attitude.
This team has deep issues - especially in the playoffs. Kershaw might be 1/3 the problem but he’s not the whole problem. |
And I do agree about Seager. I'd actually prefer Machado over him at this point. His plate approach has pissed me off the whole year and he NEVER adjusted. He should be getting more flack as, at least, Cody manage to get a few hits. |
Machado was a complete disaster since the ASG while Corey picked up his game after a horrid start. Still would trade Seager for an arm and/or prospects as Lux should be ready to take the helm at SS for the foreseeable future. |
Perhaps but he still actually produced last postseason. Key homeruns in games 2 & 4 of the LDS, homerun in game 1 of the LCS, got on base and scored the winning run in that epic game 4 and bunted his way on (hello Cody!) in game 7 with two outs that brought Cody up who followed with a two run shot.
Yeah, he had his issues, but still produced a helluva lot more that Seager did this postseason. |
Plus he was a huge threat. We wanted to get to Machado's spot in the lineup. We didn't want to get to Corey's spot. |
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ribeye Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 12646
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:53 am Post subject: |
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While I don’t think near enough emphasis is placed on post season performance when evaluating players, the fact that the sample size is so much smaller cannot be discounted. Furthermore, in baseball more than nearly any other sport, hot streaks and slumps are not only to be expected, but they are nearly always a certainty. This is why, in part, the Bucky Dent’s become heroes and the Clayton Kershaw’s, goats. Here is a list of just some of the HOF hitters, including some of the crème de la crème, who did not live up to their reputations in the post season, with post season batting average preceding the regular season.
Rod Carew .220 (.328)
Dave Winfield .208 (.283)
Wayne Boggs .273 (.328)
Mike Piazza .242 (.308)
Jeff Bagwell .226 (.297)
Frank Thomas .224 (.301)
Andre Dawson .186 (.279)
Jim Rice .225 (.298)
Orlando Cepeda .207 (.297)
Joe Morgan .182 (.281)
Frank Robinson .238 (.294)
Eddie Mathews .200 (.271)
Willie Mays .247 (.302)
Ted Williams .200 (.344)
Rogers Hornsby .245 (.358)
Ty Cobb 262 (.366) _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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LongBeachPoly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 16265
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:20 am Post subject: |
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And the flip side would be players that aren't susceptible to the small sample size or the hot and cold streaks:
Albert Pujols:
.323 avg
.431 obp
.599 slg
1.030 ops
Now, let's look at his year to year. He had 2 bad years, his rookie year and the last time he was in the playoffs with the Angels, which was only 3 games. All other years, extremely consistent.
2001 - 5 games / .478 ops
2002 - 8 games / .883 ops
2004 - 15 games / 1.286 ops
2005 - 9 games / 1.072 ops
2006 - 16 games / .959 ops
2009 - 3 games / .762 ops
2011 - 18 games / 1.155 ops
2014 - 3 games / .647 ops
The regular season and the postseason will test a player's greatness in different ways.
The regular season is more forgiving. You have 162 games to bring your numbers up.
But the postseason, you have less time. And it's a different skill I guess to be able to perform consistently in the playoffs. But as we see one example in Pujols, it's possible.
And it's not fluky. I don't think he was just on a hot streak every playoffs. It's something about his hitting approach that allows him to be great even in the small sample sizes of the playoffs consistently.
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And same thing with Justin Turner. Extremely consistent in the playoffs:
.310 avg
.411 obp
.520 slg
.931 ops
2014 - 2 games / .000 ops
2015 - 5 games / 1.392 ops
2016 - 11 games / .971 ops
2017 - 15 games / .956 ops
2018 - 16 games / .761 ops
2019 - 5 games / 1.000 ops
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So, as we can see. It's possible to be consistent in the playoffs if you have the right skills/approach at the plate. These are 2 examples of players who are able to be consistent in the playoffs despite the small sample sizes. They are able to avoid the hot/cold streaks and be consistent.
Since it's possible, I think it's fair to judge.
Just because you can excel in a 162 game schedule doesn't mean you're going to excel in a short playoff run. I agree with that.
But it's possible to excel in both. You just have to have the right hitting approach.
And I think it's fair to say, with our team, that Bellinger is the type of player that will produce in the reg season but is very susceptible to turning ice cold in the playoffs.
And Turner is the type of player that won't produce as much as Bellinger in the reg season but his approach is way more consistent/dependable in the post season. |
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Steve007 Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2006 Posts: 13273
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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I would have more faith in Seager if he looked better in his at-bats. If he was hitting the ball hard and making outs I would be more patient with him. But even with his aggressiveness he rarely hit the ball well when he swung at the first pitch (or on any pitch).
This year he had 8 k’s in 20 at-bats which is similar to his 41 k’s in 118 postseason at-bats. |
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