OFFICIAL KYLE KUZMANIA THREAD (joining team USA in august, p519)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:11 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
TheBlackMamba wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
A player's age is important when you're trying to draft a star. A star will outplay a max contract, so cheap rookie production isn't really the issue.

Tatum has production by age and time on his side to develop into a true star bef he reaches his peak.


True and he's got lots of time to get better, but Year 2 Tatum has noticeably regressed with a bigger role and isn't nearly as good as the talking heads proclaimed him to be in last year's playoffs. I'm not saying he's bad and would obviously love to have him, but he's not the superstar people were screaming he was over the summer.

I stand by my year five rule with guys drafted that young (age 19-20). But patience is boring and hot takes generate clicks and shares, so *shrug*

Superstars are so rare and it's that last little bit of skill/athleticism/something that separates damn good players like Paul George from franchise stars like Kawhi or Kevin Durant. I think Tatum can get to that PG13 level, but confidently predicting that he or any young guy will take that last, most difficult step from stardom to superstardom is a folly except in the rarest of cases like with Lebron or AD. But most of the time we don't ever see a great defender like Kawhi become an elite iso scorer or Steph developing into a functional defender and excellent finisher at the rim or Harden becoming the living embodiment of Morey-ball until it happens.

Tatum needs to become a better creator to open up the possibility of superstardom. But picking up how to read the floor and distribute can be more difficult than improving one's shot over time. And if Tatum tops out at Paul George, that's an excellent outcome for the #3 pick in any draft.


I’d say Paul George is a superstar
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:35 am    Post subject:

The most in 29 minutes is the worst stat because Kobe's 63 points in 3 quarters is the most points in x amount of minutes too. It's not a good stat.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:04 am    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
The most in 29 minutes is the worst stat because Kobe's 63 points in 3 quarters is the most points in x amount of minutes too. It's not a good stat.


It really isnt.

Plus I’m pretty sure Kobe scored 44pts in 27 minutes in that game when he outscored Dallas thru 3 quarters

Ohh but he played 33 mins total and scored 62 lol so it doesnt count.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:22 am    Post subject:

Yeah but it sounds cool guys and the thread got a lot of hits
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:40 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ I get that. But again, how many total years of high level basketball would you say Jayson Tatum has played vs Kuzma? That matters.


It could POTENTIALLY matter is my point. Some players waste their youth, or their "developmental years."

Players like Wiggins, and KAT. They reached a point at 21 but didn't develop from 21 to 23.

People use youth/age like it's a given that all players develop due to age. Not necessarily.

At some point, you're going to have to actually develop. We can compare Tatum from last year to this year. Did he develop as a player?

Every player is different, and it's not guarantee. So, yeah, Tatum being younger is POTENTIALLY a big checkmark for him when compared to Kuzma. But that's all it is. It's potential.

People argue that it's a given that because Tatum is younger, he's guaranteed to end up better than Kuzma. I don't agree with that.

At some point, you have to drop the age difference and compare both players, mano y mano.


No one is saying it's a guarantee though. Who said that? No one said that.

The whole purpose of bringing up age is because the likelihood of improving significantly when a player is 20 years old, is higher than the likelihood of improving significantly when he is 23.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:56 am    Post subject:

LKA wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
TheBlackMamba wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
A player's age is important when you're trying to draft a star. A star will outplay a max contract, so cheap rookie production isn't really the issue.

Tatum has production by age and time on his side to develop into a true star bef he reaches his peak.


True and he's got lots of time to get better, but Year 2 Tatum has noticeably regressed with a bigger role and isn't nearly as good as the talking heads proclaimed him to be in last year's playoffs. I'm not saying he's bad and would obviously love to have him, but he's not the superstar people were screaming he was over the summer.

I stand by my year five rule with guys drafted that young (age 19-20). But patience is boring and hot takes generate clicks and shares, so *shrug*

Superstars are so rare and it's that last little bit of skill/athleticism/something that separates damn good players like Paul George from franchise stars like Kawhi or Kevin Durant. I think Tatum can get to that PG13 level, but confidently predicting that he or any young guy will take that last, most difficult step from stardom to superstardom is a folly except in the rarest of cases like with Lebron or AD. But most of the time we don't ever see a great defender like Kawhi become an elite iso scorer or Steph developing into a functional defender and excellent finisher at the rim or Harden becoming the living embodiment of Morey-ball until it happens.

Tatum needs to become a better creator to open up the possibility of superstardom. But picking up how to read the floor and distribute can be more difficult than improving one's shot over time. And if Tatum tops out at Paul George, that's an excellent outcome for the #3 pick in any draft.


I’d say Paul George is a superstar

YMMV. Credit to him for having a monster season so far, but I still don't know if he cracks top-10 in the NBA while playing out of his mind.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:13 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ I get that. But again, how many total years of high level basketball would you say Jayson Tatum has played vs Kuzma? That matters.


It could POTENTIALLY matter is my point. Some players waste their youth, or their "developmental years."

Players like Wiggins, and KAT. They reached a point at 21 but didn't develop from 21 to 23.

People use youth/age like it's a given that all players develop due to age. Not necessarily.

At some point, you're going to have to actually develop. We can compare Tatum from last year to this year. Did he develop as a player?

Every player is different, and it's not guarantee. So, yeah, Tatum being younger is POTENTIALLY a big checkmark for him when compared to Kuzma. But that's all it is. It's potential.

People argue that it's a given that because Tatum is younger, he's guaranteed to end up better than Kuzma. I don't agree with that.

At some point, you have to drop the age difference and compare both players, mano y mano.


No one is saying it's a guarantee though. Who said that? No one said that.

The whole purpose of bringing up age is because the likelihood of improving significantly when a player is 20 years old, is higher than the likelihood of improving significantly when he is 23.


Which you just brought up. You're using the word "likely" which is just an assumption.

And I'm saying however "likely" you feel it's going to happen, at some point, Tatum's gotta make it a reality. At some point.

So you say, it's relevant today, at 20 vs. 23.

Will it be relevant next year? At 21 vs. 24.

Will it be relevant the year after, at 22 vs. 25?

Will it be relevant the year after that, at 23 vs. 26?

It was relevant last year, when the age differences were 19 and 22. Tatum hasn't really improved much from last year to this year. In fact, some would say he's regressed.

So, is it "likely" simply because of him being 20, or is it "likely" because of what you've seen so far.

I don't think you can judge Tatum and Kuzma in a vacuum simply because one is 20 and the other is 23. We do have 1.5 years of data. We do have some type of data. We can sort of project something.

Tatum doesn't get easy buckets. He doesn't create easy buckets. Although he has age/youth on his side, I don't see the room to make the next leap. He's already a good shooter. Where's the room for major improvement?

Alot of his shots are difficult shots. He's not like Giannis. Giannis gets alot of easy buckets. Even Ingram, who's longer and has more handles, gets easier looks than Tatum. Ingram just can't convert, but he gets easier looks than Tatum.


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ I get that. But again, how many total years of high level basketball would you say Jayson Tatum has played vs Kuzma? That matters.


It could POTENTIALLY matter is my point. Some players waste their youth, or their "developmental years."

Players like Wiggins, and KAT. They reached a point at 21 but didn't develop from 21 to 23.

People use youth/age like it's a given that all players develop due to age. Not necessarily.

At some point, you're going to have to actually develop. We can compare Tatum from last year to this year. Did he develop as a player?

Every player is different, and it's not guarantee. So, yeah, Tatum being younger is POTENTIALLY a big checkmark for him when compared to Kuzma. But that's all it is. It's potential.

People argue that it's a given that because Tatum is younger, he's guaranteed to end up better than Kuzma. I don't agree with that.

At some point, you have to drop the age difference and compare both players, mano y mano.


No one is saying it's a guarantee though. Who said that? No one said that.

The whole purpose of bringing up age is because the likelihood of improving significantly when a player is 20 years old, is higher than the likelihood of improving significantly when he is 23.


Which you just brought up. You're using the word "likely" which is just an assumption.

And I'm saying however "likely" you feel it's going to happen, at some point, Tatum's gotta make it a reality. At some point.

So you say, it's relevant today, at 20 vs. 23.

Will it be relevant next year? At 21 vs. 24.

Will it be relevant the year after, at 22 vs. 25?

Will it be relevant the year after that, at 23 vs. 26?

It was relevant last year, when the age differences were 19 and 22. Tatum hasn't really improved much from last year to this year. In fact, some would say he's regressed.

So, is it "likely" simply because of him being 20, or is it "likely" because of what you've seen so far.

When Tatum is 25 and Kuzma is 28 since most players tend to enter their peak around age 24-25.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:23 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ I get that. But again, how many total years of high level basketball would you say Jayson Tatum has played vs Kuzma? That matters.


It could POTENTIALLY matter is my point. Some players waste their youth, or their "developmental years."

Players like Wiggins, and KAT. They reached a point at 21 but didn't develop from 21 to 23.

People use youth/age like it's a given that all players develop due to age. Not necessarily.

At some point, you're going to have to actually develop. We can compare Tatum from last year to this year. Did he develop as a player?

Every player is different, and it's not guarantee. So, yeah, Tatum being younger is POTENTIALLY a big checkmark for him when compared to Kuzma. But that's all it is. It's potential.

People argue that it's a given that because Tatum is younger, he's guaranteed to end up better than Kuzma. I don't agree with that.

At some point, you have to drop the age difference and compare both players, mano y mano.


No one is saying it's a guarantee though. Who said that? No one said that.

The whole purpose of bringing up age is because the likelihood of improving significantly when a player is 20 years old, is higher than the likelihood of improving significantly when he is 23.


Which you just brought up. You're using the word "likely" which is just an assumption.

And I'm saying however "likely" you feel it's going to happen, at some point, Tatum's gotta make it a reality. At some point.

So you say, it's relevant today, at 20 vs. 23.

Will it be relevant next year? At 21 vs. 24.

Will it be relevant the year after, at 22 vs. 25?

Will it be relevant the year after that, at 23 vs. 26?

It was relevant last year, when the age differences were 19 and 22. Tatum hasn't really improved much from last year to this year. In fact, some would say he's regressed.

So, is it "likely" simply because of him being 20, or is it "likely" because of what you've seen so far.

When Tatum is 25 and Kuzma is 28 since most players tend to enter their peak around age 24-25.


Man, so for the next 5 years, even if Kuzma is playing better than Tatum, we'll constantly hear that "but, Tatum is 3 years younger"?

I think if that's the case, that's just holding on to excuses by that point.

What's your opinion of Wiggins? He's 23, is he still improving?

What's your opinion of Jahlil Okafor? Is he still improving?

How many players needs 7 years in the league before you can properly assess them?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:33 am    Post subject:

So why do folks then assess our young Lakers (BI/Lonzo) differently than Tatum?

See the blatant double standard?

If we want to apply that equally, then please do so.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:40 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
So why do folks then assess our young Lakers (BI/Lonzo) differently than Tatum?

See the blatant double standard?

If we want to apply that equally, then please do so.


Because we're not one voice? We're thousands of individual voices w/ different opinions?

It'd only be a double standard if there's only one Laker voice.

And who are Lonzo/Ingram compared to? Are they compared to older counterparts?

This is my opinion. I'm not speaking for Laker Nation. I'm only speaking for myself. This is how I view the age argument.

Age is no longer an excuse once you get that first big contract. So, Ingram being only 21, if he gets that big extension next year, I don't want to hear it anymore.

It's time to produce, regardless of your age.

Same thing w/ Tatum and Kuzma. Once they get that big max extension, I don't want to hear that "oh, Tatum's 3 years younger.."

It's time to produce.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:48 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
So why do folks then assess our young Lakers (BI/Lonzo) differently than Tatum?

See the blatant double standard?

If we want to apply that equally, then please do so.


Because we're not one voice? We're thousands of individual voices w/ different opinions?

It'd only be a double standard if there's only one Laker voice.

And who are Lonzo/Ingram compared to? Are they compared to older counterparts?

This is my opinion. I'm not speaking for Laker Nation. I'm only speaking for myself. This is how I view the age argument.

Age is no longer an excuse once you get that first big contract. So, Ingram being only 21, if he gets that big extension next year, I don't want to hear it anymore.

It's time to produce, regardless of your age.

Same thing w/ Tatum and Kuzma. Once they get that big max extension, I don't want to hear that "oh, Tatum's 3 years younger.."

It's time to produce.


Oh, it's widely used by Lakers fans when comparing Kuz with our younger players.

To be fair you're not using it so that's being consistent.

I just think with such young players, 3 years is a massive gap in development time (both body and skills).

I'd happily wager that Tatum in 3 years will be on a trajectory that is better than Kuz's (and will justify whatever large extension he gets).

But I'm VERY happy we have Kuz.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:52 am    Post subject:

Pretty interesting but according to one article, the average NBA career is 4.5 years.

So 3 years age-difference shouldn't be taken lightly in terms of how much a young 19-20 year old player can improve. There are countless stories of players really taking off by year 3-4 of their rookie deals.

So if Tatum's bottom floor is basically what Kuz is producing at age 23, I have reasonable confidence to think by the time Tatum hits 23 he'll be at a much higher level.

It's about trajectories, and age matters in that sense. And from a team control standpoint, being able to have 7 years control, then offer another long term deal while a young player just ENTERS his prime is a huge thing. That 3 years accounts for that.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:57 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
So why do folks then assess our young Lakers (BI/Lonzo) differently than Tatum?

See the blatant double standard?

If we want to apply that equally, then please do so.


Because we're not one voice? We're thousands of individual voices w/ different opinions?

It'd only be a double standard if there's only one Laker voice.

And who are Lonzo/Ingram compared to? Are they compared to older counterparts?

This is my opinion. I'm not speaking for Laker Nation. I'm only speaking for myself. This is how I view the age argument.

Age is no longer an excuse once you get that first big contract. So, Ingram being only 21, if he gets that big extension next year, I don't want to hear it anymore.

It's time to produce, regardless of your age.

Same thing w/ Tatum and Kuzma. Once they get that big max extension, I don't want to hear that "oh, Tatum's 3 years younger.."

It's time to produce.


Oh, it's widely used by Lakers fans when comparing Kuz with our younger players.

To be fair you're not using it so that's being consistent.

I just think with such young players, 3 years is a massive gap in development time (both body and skills).

I'd happily wager that Tatum in 3 years will be on a trajectory that is better than Kuz's (and will justify whatever large extension he gets).

But I'm VERY happy we have Kuz.


Yeah, 3 years is alot. But it's what you do with those 3 years. And not every young player uses it productively.

I guess it all depends on how high you are on that player. If you're high on Tatum, then you're going to constantly bring up the fact that he's only 20.

I guess, I'm not that high on Tatum, so that's why his age matters less to me. I don't see him being better than Kuzma.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:01 am    Post subject:

Quote:
3. Who is the Lakers' second-best player?

Snellings: If there were an expansion draft and I could pick any Laker besides LeBron, I would choose Lonzo Ball. His playmaking and defense at the position are special, and I believe he will develop into a star. But, on these Lakers, LeBron is the point guard and he needs to be surrounded by players who complement him. Thus, Kyle Kuzma is their second-best player with his ability to play off the ball, shoot from range and finish with volume and efficiency.

Arnovitz: After dropping 41 points on the Pistons on Wednesday night, it's fair to say Kuzma has claimed the mantle, at least for the time being. He can both spread the floor and create off the bounce, which is more than we can say for the rest of the roster. Kuzma's defense has improved, though he still doesn't give the Lakers the flexibility to truly go small because he's a liability at the 5. There's still hope that Brandon Ingram can assert himself, but at present he's simply not enough of a shooter, not sufficiently creative and not enough of a defensive presence to warrant consideration.

Herring: Never would've made this argument before the season, but it might be Kuzma. When James is out, he looks most comfortable trying to replace LeBron's scoring ability. And while he isn't as reliable as someone like Ball on defense, Kuzma has shown to be decent on that end when giving full effort. The jury is still out on which youngster has the brightest future, though.

Pelton: I'm not sure and I don't think it really matters. Often, second-best player is synonymous with second-best offensive option, and I think the stretch without James has reaffirmed what we suspected beforehand: that's Kuzma, not Ingram. However, when defense and playmaking are factored in, a case can be made for Ball, Josh Hart and even JaVale McGee.

Windhorst: Don't know. Neither do they, really. That's a problem. They had the No. 2 pick three years in a row and they failed to land a bona fide star. Drafting is hard, sometimes you can do everything right and still miss. The No. 2 pick has been a danger zone for years. But to get three in a row and not hit on one ... that's potentially going to dog the franchise for a while. No offense to Ball and Ingram, I just don't see them as stars.


http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25731188/should-lakers-make-big-trade-lebron-out
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject:

(bleep) Windhorst fatass opinions
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:05 am    Post subject:

1ngr4m wrote:
(bleep) Windhorst fatass opinions


I think Pelton's take is spot on. 2nd best is often synonymous with 2nd best scorer, which it shouldn't necessarily.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:20 am    Post subject:

Clearly Kuz offensively but interesting he doesn't mention BI for defense and playmaking.

Quote:
Pelton: I'm not sure and I don't think it really matters. Often, second-best player is synonymous with second-best offensive option, and I think the stretch without James has reaffirmed what we suspected beforehand: that's Kuzma, not Ingram. However, when defense and playmaking are factored in, a case can be made for Ball, Josh Hart and even JaVale McGee.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:26 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
Clearly Kuz offensively but interesting he doesn't mention BI for defense and playmaking.

Quote:
Pelton: I'm not sure and I don't think it really matters. Often, second-best player is synonymous with second-best offensive option, and I think the stretch without James has reaffirmed what we suspected beforehand: that's Kuzma, not Ingram. However, when defense and playmaking are factored in, a case can be made for Ball, Josh Hart and even JaVale McGee.


I think BI's play of late should have changed that outlook a bit.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:28 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
32 wrote:
Clearly Kuz offensively but interesting he doesn't mention BI for defense and playmaking.

Quote:
Pelton: I'm not sure and I don't think it really matters. Often, second-best player is synonymous with second-best offensive option, and I think the stretch without James has reaffirmed what we suspected beforehand: that's Kuzma, not Ingram. However, when defense and playmaking are factored in, a case can be made for Ball, Josh Hart and even JaVale McGee.


I think BI's play of late should have changed that outlook a bit.


That article was released today. I'm sure Pelton factored that in.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:29 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ I get that. But again, how many total years of high level basketball would you say Jayson Tatum has played vs Kuzma? That matters.


It could POTENTIALLY matter is my point. Some players waste their youth, or their "developmental years."

Players like Wiggins, and KAT. They reached a point at 21 but didn't develop from 21 to 23.

People use youth/age like it's a given that all players develop due to age. Not necessarily.

At some point, you're going to have to actually develop. We can compare Tatum from last year to this year. Did he develop as a player?

Every player is different, and it's not guarantee. So, yeah, Tatum being younger is POTENTIALLY a big checkmark for him when compared to Kuzma. But that's all it is. It's potential.

People argue that it's a given that because Tatum is younger, he's guaranteed to end up better than Kuzma. I don't agree with that.

At some point, you have to drop the age difference and compare both players, mano y mano.


No one is saying it's a guarantee though. Who said that? No one said that.

The whole purpose of bringing up age is because the likelihood of improving significantly when a player is 20 years old, is higher than the likelihood of improving significantly when he is 23.


Which you just brought up. You're using the word "likely" which is just an assumption.

And I'm saying however "likely" you feel it's going to happen, at some point, Tatum's gotta make it a reality. At some point.

So you say, it's relevant today, at 20 vs. 23.

Will it be relevant next year? At 21 vs. 24.

Will it be relevant the year after, at 22 vs. 25?

Will it be relevant the year after that, at 23 vs. 26?

It was relevant last year, when the age differences were 19 and 22. Tatum hasn't really improved much from last year to this year. In fact, some would say he's regressed.

So, is it "likely" simply because of him being 20, or is it "likely" because of what you've seen so far.

I don't think you can judge Tatum and Kuzma in a vacuum simply because one is 20 and the other is 23. We do have 1.5 years of data. We do have some type of data. We can sort of project something.

Tatum doesn't get easy buckets. He doesn't create easy buckets. Although he has age/youth on his side, I don't see the room to make the next leap. He's already a good shooter. Where's the room for major improvement?

Alot of his shots are difficult shots. He's not like Giannis. Giannis gets alot of easy buckets. Even Ingram, who's longer and has more handles, gets easier looks than Tatum. Ingram just can't convert, but he gets easier looks than Tatum.


I'm not sure what else to tell you other than that the development arc for a player at 20 in their second season, is typically much higher than the development arc for someone who is 23.

Therefore, if you have two players producing roughly the same, but one is 20 and the other is 23, it is likely, that the performance increase for the younger player will be greater, than the performance increase for the older player.

There's data behind it.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:30 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
32 wrote:
Clearly Kuz offensively but interesting he doesn't mention BI for defense and playmaking.

Quote:
Pelton: I'm not sure and I don't think it really matters. Often, second-best player is synonymous with second-best offensive option, and I think the stretch without James has reaffirmed what we suspected beforehand: that's Kuzma, not Ingram. However, when defense and playmaking are factored in, a case can be made for Ball, Josh Hart and even JaVale McGee.


I think BI's play of late should have changed that outlook a bit.


That article was released today. I'm sure Pelton factored that in.


He's more of a "mostly advanced stats" guy and the advanced stats aren't as kind to BI. So it's natural he'll focus more on the values on paper.
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lakersboy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject:

Kuzma isn't in the same stratosphere as Tatum (early pages of this thread. )

Tatum's likely a superstar while Kuzma nearly peaked, is a common view based on some playoff games.

Heard yesterday from a radio talking head: Kuzma is no longer a poor man's Tatum, he's a middle class man's Tatum.

People everywhere are proving that denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Kuzma's touch on floaters, runners, and bank shots around the rim is an ability EVERY player wishes he had. The sky's the limit for quality scoring opportunities that can come from using just those shots. Because of that touch, he's already figured out how to significantly improve offensively, while Tatum isn't showing the improvement to justify the narrative that has led to the ridiculous statements above.

I'll happily keep Kuzma and wouldn't trade him for Tatum straight up.


Last edited by lakersboy on Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
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levon
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:36 am    Post subject:

Windhorst is so negative and pissy all the time. I listen to his podcast sometimes for his guests, and he has this "I don't even want to be doing this" schtick that is so awkward on air. He must be a really nice person in his intimate relationships because goimg by his media personality (which doesn't seem to be a caricature like SAS'), I don't see why anyone would wanna be around him.

And he was (bleep) on the Lakers' FA signings this summer and has faoled to acknowledge how important they've been to the team. Shocker.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:37 am    Post subject:

Here's the data behind performance arcs of 20 year old second-season players. This isn't comprehensive, but I think it highlights what I am talking about.

This list is limited by the following: All players since from 2000 through the 2017-2018 season. 2nd year player, 20 years old, played in at least 2/3 of games in their second season (55 game minimum). The bolded are players with a second-season PER equal to or greater than Tatum. The numbers in parentheses are PER at 20, PER at 23, and PER at 27. If it says N/A it means they are either not 27 yet, or were not in the league by that age.

Anthony Davis (26.5. 27.5, N/A)
LeBron James (25.7, 29.1, 30.7)
Andre Drummond (22.6, 20.9, N/A)
Kyrie Irving (21.4, 19.9, N/A)
Kevin Durant (20.8, 26.2, 28.2)
Dwight Howard (19.3, 25.4, 19.4)
Enes Kanter (17.6, 24, N/A)
Chris Bosh (17.5, 23.8, 18.9)
Eddy Curry (17.5, 23.8, -1.9)
Derrick Favors (17.1, 21.8, 20.9)
Carmelo Anthony (16.7, 21.1, 21.1)
Tony Parker (16.5, 20.8, 16.4)
Tobias Harris (16.0, 16.2, N/A)
Luol Deng (15.8, 14.7, 15.1)
Tyson Chandler (15.8, 12.2, 12.5)

Josh Smith
Jrue Holiday
Eddie Griffin
Travis Outlaw
Thaddeus Young
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jackie Butler
Lou Williams
Darius Miles
Zaza Pachulia
Bradley Beal
Kwame Brown
Spencer Hawes
Sebastian Telfair
Tony Wroten
J.R. Smith
Marvin Williams
Andray Blatche
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
Maurice Harkless
Trevor Ariza
Kendrick Perkins
Kris Humphries
Shaun Livingston
Bismack Biyombo
Martell Webster

(Sorry, I only did the bolded because I don't feel like typing them all out). But I hope the trend is clear. Significant jumps from 20 to 23, and then smaller jumps, if not a decline, from age 23 to 27). Granted, I think it's a fair argument to say well, someone who came in the league younger, will see a flatter arc than someone who came in at 22 or 23. If I can find a reasonable other way to extend the PER comparison to other players we will get a more accurate picture. Although, I don't think the smaller data set above tells a story that seems unusual.


Last edited by ringfinger on Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:42 am; edited 3 times in total
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