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Joe Pesci Star Player
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 3885
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:58 am Post subject: |
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On a team that already has LeBron James, if you keep Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma instead of trading them for Anthony Davis, you have no right being a GM.
If you don’t pull the trigger on Davis in favor of Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram, you’re living in fear and lack the vision necessary to construct a team under adverse conditions.
If you’re worth your salt as a a GM, you can construct an effective team around James and Davis, a team that will be a legitimate threat to win it all, a team full of minimum dudes, rookie scale guys, a room exception, and the remaining ten million or so in capspace. _________________ A creative scorer, a wing defender, and a shooter. |
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Sentient Meat Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014 Posts: 12978
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Sentient Meat wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | Yes... but as I outlined before... no one can get hurt, LBJ can't get old yet and we need to get really lucky on minimum signings. |
You mean like the HEAT team that was stocked with minimum signings? |
Yes, but in this analogy... all three Heat players are in their prime...and Ray Allen falls in their lap for cheap.
Davis gets injured... LBJ is old... we don't even know if we have KD or Kawhi locked down.
Look at the Heat now. Nowhere close to a championship and that's with a top executive in Riley and having had three great players in their primes
Again, I'm not saying you guys are wrong... clearly I'm in the minority here
But I think I'm making a fair point, so I will defend it. |
Are you arguing that LBJ/KD/Kuzma/Ball/BI is better than LBJ/KD/AD/vets or mins? |
Not better for one game or series... but more sustainable over the course of a season as well as the future and better equipped to endure injuries or setbacks. |
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Jesusdelonla Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jan 2018 Posts: 15430
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Joe Pesci wrote: | On a team that already has LeBron James, if you keep Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma instead of trading them for Anthony Davis, you have no right being a GM.
If you don’t pull the trigger on Davis in favor of Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram, you’re living in fear and lack the vision necessary to construct a team under adverse conditions.
If you’re worth your salt as a a GM, you can construct an effective team around James and Davis, a team that will be a legitimate threat to win it all, a team full of minimum dudes, rookie scale guys, a room exception, and the remaining ten million or so in capspace. |
if i was an owner i would fire the GM who wants to keep bi, kuz, zo over trading them for AD |
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noahp45 Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 6572 Location: Oceanside Ca
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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daytripper wrote: | noahp45 wrote: | When AD goes to Boston, who will be the new pipe Dream? |
Yeah that's my assumption too that Ainge is finally going to empty his warchest of assets when AD hits the market. Boston has a disgusting 4 potential FRP's next draft in addition to Tatum, Brown, etc. |
Yup
A rehash of the Carmello trade. But this time the Team that gives a lot for one player doesn't give too much. |
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noahp45 Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 6572 Location: Oceanside Ca
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Jesusdelonla wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: | On a team that already has LeBron James, if you keep Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma instead of trading them for Anthony Davis, you have no right being a GM.
If you don’t pull the trigger on Davis in favor of Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram, you’re living in fear and lack the vision necessary to construct a team under adverse conditions.
If you’re worth your salt as a a GM, you can construct an effective team around James and Davis, a team that will be a legitimate threat to win it all, a team full of minimum dudes, rookie scale guys, a room exception, and the remaining ten million or so in capspace. |
if i was an owner i would fire the GM who wants to keep bi, kuz, zo over trading them for AD |
That's how you feel!
You believe AD is a Top 5. To me and a few other he is in the 11 to 15 range. |
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Jesusdelonla Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jan 2018 Posts: 15430
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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noahp45 wrote: | Jesusdelonla wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: | On a team that already has LeBron James, if you keep Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma instead of trading them for Anthony Davis, you have no right being a GM.
If you don’t pull the trigger on Davis in favor of Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram, you’re living in fear and lack the vision necessary to construct a team under adverse conditions.
If you’re worth your salt as a a GM, you can construct an effective team around James and Davis, a team that will be a legitimate threat to win it all, a team full of minimum dudes, rookie scale guys, a room exception, and the remaining ten million or so in capspace. |
if i was an owner i would fire the GM who wants to keep bi, kuz, zo over trading them for AD |
That's how you feel!
You believe AD is a Top 5. To me and a few other he is in the 11 to 15 range. |
So what's ur point |
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noahp45 Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 6572 Location: Oceanside Ca
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Jesusdelonla wrote: | noahp45 wrote: | Jesusdelonla wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: | On a team that already has LeBron James, if you keep Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma instead of trading them for Anthony Davis, you have no right being a GM.
If you don’t pull the trigger on Davis in favor of Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram, you’re living in fear and lack the vision necessary to construct a team under adverse conditions.
If you’re worth your salt as a a GM, you can construct an effective team around James and Davis, a team that will be a legitimate threat to win it all, a team full of minimum dudes, rookie scale guys, a room exception, and the remaining ten million or so in capspace. |
if i was an owner i would fire the GM who wants to keep bi, kuz, zo over trading them for AD |
That's how you feel!
You believe AD is a Top 5. To me and a few other he is in the 11 to 15 range. |
So what's ur point |
The point Is in your Opinion Ad is worth everything and to others he is not.
Wasn't that obvious? |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | I’m surprised more people aren’t concerned about why AD can’t lead this team to being better. Maybe, he puts up great numbers but can’t lead? That would make him more of a #2 type guy.
He has sufficient talent to at least make some noise, be better than sac, memphis, etc. |
Isn't that why you want him with LBJ and KD? |
Maybe. Depends on who else I have around them. |
That's the whole point/question. Not about whether AD himself can get a team to the Finals. It's a baseline of LBJ/AD, and if we hit a grandslam, LBJ/AD/KD. |
LBJ/AD/KD isn't a grand slam unless you have the right pieces around them. You'll still need the right roleplayers IMO for that trio to win.
And, I think you could win with LBJ/AD and other pieces, again, depending on those pieces as well. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | I’m surprised more people aren’t concerned about why AD can’t lead this team to being better. Maybe, he puts up great numbers but can’t lead? That would make him more of a #2 type guy.
He has sufficient talent to at least make some noise, be better than sac, memphis, etc. |
Isn't that why you want him with LBJ and KD? |
Maybe. Depends on who else I have around them. |
That's the whole point/question. Not about whether AD himself can get a team to the Finals. It's a baseline of LBJ/AD, and if we hit a grandslam, LBJ/AD/KD. |
LBJ/AD/KD isn't a grand slam unless you have the right pieces around them. You'll still need the right roleplayers IMO for that trio to win. |
Nah, that's the grand slam.
It's far easier to surround the team with role player pieces than getting 3 5 carat players. All 3 have a shot at the HOF.
You'd have the room exception, vet min exception, probably 1 of the 4 (Lonzo/Hart/BI/Kuz), Mo/Bonga/Svi, plus ring chasers to fill out the rest. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | I’m surprised more people aren’t concerned about why AD can’t lead this team to being better. Maybe, he puts up great numbers but can’t lead? That would make him more of a #2 type guy.
He has sufficient talent to at least make some noise, be better than sac, memphis, etc. |
Isn't that why you want him with LBJ and KD? |
Maybe. Depends on who else I have around them. |
That's the whole point/question. Not about whether AD himself can get a team to the Finals. It's a baseline of LBJ/AD, and if we hit a grandslam, LBJ/AD/KD. |
LBJ/AD/KD isn't a grand slam unless you have the right pieces around them. You'll still need the right roleplayers IMO for that trio to win. |
Nah, that's the grand slam.
It's far easier to surround the team with role player pieces than getting 3 5 carat players. All 3 have a shot at the HOF.
You'd have the room exception, vet min exception, probably 1 of the 4 (Lonzo/Hart/BI/Kuz), Mo/Bonga/Svi, plus ring chasers to fill out the rest. |
We just talked about this in the other thread where you said if we didn't get KD, you think we'd be just as fine if we used our cap space to bring in quality 4 carat players.
There are other avenues to success. They're just different avenues.
Why are we even talking about Bonga in a conversation about building a championship roster? |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | We just talked about this in the other thread where you said if we didn't get KD, you think we'd be just as fine if we used our cap space to bring in quality 4 carat players.
There are other avenues to success. They're just different avenues.
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And we talked about the fact that 5 carat players are rarer and more efficacious. Having 3 HOF level players is the envy of every team.
My position on saying that having a less than backup plan was ok doesn't mean that it's the optimal position. In fact it's several tiers down from a trio of LBJ/KD/AD. It's acceptable, but don't conflate that with optimal. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | We just talked about this in the other thread where you said if we didn't get KD, you think we'd be just as fine if we used our cap space to bring in quality 4 carat players.
There are other avenues to success. They're just different avenues.
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And we talked about the fact that 5 carat players are rarer and more efficacious. Having 3 HOF level players is the envy of every team.
My position on saying that having a less than backup plan was ok doesn't mean that it's the optimal position. In fact it's several tiers down from a trio of LBJ/KD/AD. It's acceptable, but don't conflate that with optimal. |
Again though, it’s not optimal if all you have to surround those three guys are Mo and Bongas of the league.
So I am not saying it cannot be successful, just as LBJ/AD or LBJ/KD cannot also be successful. It all depends on who else you have around them especially when an LBJ/KD scenario can be done while keeping the current core together in its entirety. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | We just talked about this in the other thread where you said if we didn't get KD, you think we'd be just as fine if we used our cap space to bring in quality 4 carat players.
There are other avenues to success. They're just different avenues.
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And we talked about the fact that 5 carat players are rarer and more efficacious. Having 3 HOF level players is the envy of every team.
My position on saying that having a less than backup plan was ok doesn't mean that it's the optimal position. In fact it's several tiers down from a trio of LBJ/KD/AD. It's acceptable, but don't conflate that with optimal. |
Again though, it’s not optimal if all you have to surround those three guys are Mo and Bongas of the league.
So I am not saying it cannot be successful, just as LBJ/AD or LBJ/KD cannot also be successful. It all depends on who else you have around them especially when an LBJ/KD scenario can be done while keeping the current core together in its entirety. |
Room exception
2019 1st rounder
vet ring chasers (JaVale, Tyson, maybe guys like Ariza, etc.).
Mo/Bonga/Svi
1 of the 4 young core who may remain.
I think you can field enough around 3 5 star players. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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My aspirational tiers:
1. LBJ/KD/AD
2. LBJ/KD or KL/keep young core (if we can't trade for AD, keep or trade for someone else).
3. LBJ/2nd tier FA (i.e. Klay, Middleton, Kemba, Tobias)/young core.
I can LIVE with all 3 no doubt. But I PREFER #1 over the rest. I think iterations #1 and 2, we can compete for a championship. Version 3, a bit more difficult but not impossible. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8999
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Joe Pesci wrote: | On a team that already has LeBron James, if you keep Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma instead of trading them for Anthony Davis, you have no right being a GM.
If you don’t pull the trigger on Davis in favor of Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram, you’re living in fear and lack the vision necessary to construct a team under adverse conditions.
If you’re worth your salt as a a GM, you can construct an effective team around James and Davis, a team that will be a legitimate threat to win it all, a team full of minimum dudes, rookie scale guys, a room exception, and the remaining ten million or so in capspace. |
exactly, but i will leave Kuzma out of the trio, he's such a natural running mate for LeBron. But yes, i agreed, if you're holding onto Ingram, Zo and Hart afraid pulling the trigger for AD, then you should change your name to Mitch Kupchak. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | We just talked about this in the other thread where you said if we didn't get KD, you think we'd be just as fine if we used our cap space to bring in quality 4 carat players.
There are other avenues to success. They're just different avenues.
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And we talked about the fact that 5 carat players are rarer and more efficacious. Having 3 HOF level players is the envy of every team.
My position on saying that having a less than backup plan was ok doesn't mean that it's the optimal position. In fact it's several tiers down from a trio of LBJ/KD/AD. It's acceptable, but don't conflate that with optimal. |
Again though, it’s not optimal if all you have to surround those three guys are Mo and Bongas of the league.
So I am not saying it cannot be successful, just as LBJ/AD or LBJ/KD cannot also be successful. It all depends on who else you have around them especially when an LBJ/KD scenario can be done while keeping the current core together in its entirety. |
Room exception
2019 1st rounder
vet ring chasers (JaVale, Tyson, maybe guys like Ariza, etc.).
Mo/Bonga/Svi
1 of the 4 young core who may remain.
I think you can field enough around 3 5 star players. |
And you don’t think you can field enough around 2? Because I think you can, depending on who we are talking about and still have all of those great championship pieces like Mo and Bonga in the first scenario if you wish. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | We just talked about this in the other thread where you said if we didn't get KD, you think we'd be just as fine if we used our cap space to bring in quality 4 carat players.
There are other avenues to success. They're just different avenues.
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And we talked about the fact that 5 carat players are rarer and more efficacious. Having 3 HOF level players is the envy of every team.
My position on saying that having a less than backup plan was ok doesn't mean that it's the optimal position. In fact it's several tiers down from a trio of LBJ/KD/AD. It's acceptable, but don't conflate that with optimal. |
Again though, it’s not optimal if all you have to surround those three guys are Mo and Bongas of the league.
So I am not saying it cannot be successful, just as LBJ/AD or LBJ/KD cannot also be successful. It all depends on who else you have around them especially when an LBJ/KD scenario can be done while keeping the current core together in its entirety. |
Room exception
2019 1st rounder
vet ring chasers (JaVale, Tyson, maybe guys like Ariza, etc.).
Mo/Bonga/Svi
1 of the 4 young core who may remain.
I think you can field enough around 3 5 star players. |
And you don’t think you can field enough around 2? Because I think you can, depending on who we are talking about and still have all of those great championship pieces like Mo and Bonga in the first scenario if you wish. |
I've explained that yes you can. And that is one of two scenarios I can live with assuming the max FA we get is KD or KL. I can even do without a top max FA but openly admit that the chances of a ring diminish.
I'm a proponent of getting as many HOF level players in their prime. Time after time the playoffs have shown that the cream of the crop rise over teams that have quantity over quality. Of course you'd like to have both. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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^ So we’re in agreement. All I said is that the path I take depends on what I believe I will have after making the big additions.
Who knows, with just two you might get some 4 carat players willing to play for 2.5 carat pricing (i.e. Iguodala types) |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | ^ So we’re in agreement. All I said is that the path I take depends on what I believe I will have after making the big additions.
Who knows, with just two you might get some 4 carat players willing to play for 2.5 carat pricing (i.e. Iguodala types) |
Yes. The one you're describing is my #2 option which is championship caliber also. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Sentient Meat Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014 Posts: 12978
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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SGV-Laker fan wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: | On a team that already has LeBron James, if you keep Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma instead of trading them for Anthony Davis, you have no right being a GM.
If you don’t pull the trigger on Davis in favor of Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram, you’re living in fear and lack the vision necessary to construct a team under adverse conditions.
If you’re worth your salt as a a GM, you can construct an effective team around James and Davis, a team that will be a legitimate threat to win it all, a team full of minimum dudes, rookie scale guys, a room exception, and the remaining ten million or so in capspace. |
exactly, but i will leave Kuzma out of the trio, he's such a natural running mate for LeBron. But yes, i agreed, if you're holding onto Ingram, Zo and Hart afraid pulling the trigger for AD, then you should change your name to Mitch Kupchak. |
If you wanted us to hold on to Kuzma... you should have told him to hide his recent form for the rest of the season.
You might as well offer Zubac, Moe, and Svi because that has much chance of getting Davis as Ingram/Lonzo and Hart without Kuzma.
Unless Ball and Ingram both start shooting 40% from three the rest of the year. |
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Dilla_ Star Player
Joined: 25 Oct 2015 Posts: 1274
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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If the KCP for Arzia trade does happen then what will be the next move the Lakers will try and make? I'm thinking a backup PF when the buyouts start to happen. _________________ Coach MWP. |
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Jesusdelonla Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jan 2018 Posts: 15430
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Dilla_ wrote: | If the KCP for Arzia trade does happen then what will be the next move the Lakers will try and make? I'm thinking a backup PF when the buyouts start to happen. |
How if we just get r Holmes or bender in that deal? |
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PHILosophize Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2012 Posts: 10758
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Jesusdelonla wrote: | Dilla_ wrote: | If the KCP for Arzia trade does happen then what will be the next move the Lakers will try and make? I'm thinking a backup PF when the buyouts start to happen. |
How if we just get r Holmes or bender in that deal? |
Holmes over Bender for sure. Ariza and Holmes for KCP and a 2nd is a deal I would do. _________________ one dog goes that way the other dog goes the other way |
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Jesusdelonla Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jan 2018 Posts: 15430
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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PHILosophize wrote: | Jesusdelonla wrote: | Dilla_ wrote: | If the KCP for Arzia trade does happen then what will be the next move the Lakers will try and make? I'm thinking a backup PF when the buyouts start to happen. |
How if we just get r Holmes or bender in that deal? |
Holmes over Bender for sure. Ariza and Holmes for KCP and a 2nd is a deal I would do. |
Me 2 |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Jesusdelonla wrote: | PHILosophize wrote: | Jesusdelonla wrote: | Dilla_ wrote: | If the KCP for Arzia trade does happen then what will be the next move the Lakers will try and make? I'm thinking a backup PF when the buyouts start to happen. |
How if we just get r Holmes or bender in that deal? |
Holmes over Bender for sure. Ariza and Holmes for KCP and a 2nd is a deal I would do. |
Me 2 |
They don’t want KCP guys. |
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