View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Inspector Gadget Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016 Posts: 46784
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
VicXLakers Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 11823
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
1ngr4m wrote: | daytripper wrote: | LakerLogic wrote: | Comparison of Ingram and Giannis, Kawhi, George in their 3rd seasons
The advanced sets are the striking difference.
He doesn't have the athleticism of Giannis, Kawhi, or even George.
Length and some ball-handling is what he has going for him. His defense has been ok against particular matchups. So we are looking a slightly better version of Tayshaun Prince offensively at this point unless his shooting improves. The poor FT shooting is not a great indicator. |
Exactly.
The advanced stats can show whatever you want but he does not have the athleticism of those guys. He doesn't have Kawhi's hands either (just had to throw that one in there |
Kyle Kuzma, Lonzo Ball, Josh Hart don't have the athleticism of any of those guys either. Whats the point? |
I think the point is to aggravate you ...would be nice if they started a thread of news so we can stay out of this cesspool |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011 Posts: 6697
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | 1ngr4m wrote: | daytripper wrote: | LakerLogic wrote: | Comparison of Ingram and Giannis, Kawhi, George in their 3rd seasons
The advanced sets are the striking difference.
He doesn't have the athleticism of Giannis, Kawhi, or even George.
Length and some ball-handling is what he has going for him. His defense has been ok against particular matchups. So we are looking a slightly better version of Tayshaun Prince offensively at this point unless his shooting improves. The poor FT shooting is not a great indicator. |
Exactly.
The advanced stats can show whatever you want but he does not have the athleticism of those guys. He doesn't have Kawhi's hands either (just had to throw that one in there |
Kyle Kuzma, Lonzo Ball, Josh Hart don't have the athleticism of any of those guys either. Whats the point? |
they gain advantages with their athleticism more than Ingram does..even more than Ingram does with his length. |
Is the guy that's Ingram's age and is shooting 38% from the field, has games where he can barely make a single basket really getting more from his athleticism then Ingram? I mean dude can't even make a (bleep) layup with his athletism.
Or the guy that's two years older and fully developed into his body, playing a role player game and averaging 7 points per game getting more out of his athleticism? Or is he just a better 3 and D role player?
Or the other guy that's two years older then Ingram, yet somehow still has nearly as bad advanced stats then Ingram while being worse at every aspect of the game other then scoring. Is he really getting more advantage out of his athleticism? _________________ “Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011 Posts: 6697
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
VicXLakers wrote: | 1ngr4m wrote: | daytripper wrote: | LakerLogic wrote: | Comparison of Ingram and Giannis, Kawhi, George in their 3rd seasons
The advanced sets are the striking difference.
He doesn't have the athleticism of Giannis, Kawhi, or even George.
Length and some ball-handling is what he has going for him. His defense has been ok against particular matchups. So we are looking a slightly better version of Tayshaun Prince offensively at this point unless his shooting improves. The poor FT shooting is not a great indicator. |
Exactly.
The advanced stats can show whatever you want but he does not have the athleticism of those guys. He doesn't have Kawhi's hands either (just had to throw that one in there |
Kyle Kuzma, Lonzo Ball, Josh Hart don't have the athleticism of any of those guys either. Whats the point? |
I think the point is to aggravate you ...would be nice if they started a thread of news so we can stay out of this cesspool |
I agree. It's amazing how some of these dudes can be in another thread defending any type of terrible game from Kuzma or Lonzo while coming in here and bashing Ingram 24/7.
They strip any (bleep) context out of stats and fit their narrative, completely ignoring the fact that Josh Hart is a 3 and D role player, or the fact that Lonzo can barely get a (bleep) basket and looks like he can't make a layup if his life depended on it every other game or the fact that other then the last 10 games Kuzma has been the biggest liability in any game where his scoring isn't on point.
So much ridiculous bias, same dudes will exit a thread defending another player to death and ignoring any short coming but come in here and demand Ingram be traded after any not great game. _________________ “Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LakerLogic Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 17886
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Lonzo's issue has more to do with skills than athleticism. He gets to his spots.
Kuzma and Hart weren't #2 picks so didn't have the same perceived ceilings.
Kuzma definitely has above avg athleticism for his size and is uses it a lot more effectively. He's also quicker than BI and makes faster decisions offensively.
People keep harping on comparing his numbers to guys similar to him at the same age, which is a fallacy. Apples and oranges. Athletic potential has a lot to do with it.
The problem is he doesn't make up for it with elite shooting. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011 Posts: 6697
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LakerLogic wrote: | Lonzo's issue has more to do with skills than athleticism. He gets to his spots.
Kuzma and Hart weren't #2 picks so didn't have the same perceived ceilings.
Kuzma definitely has above avg athleticism for his size and is uses it a lot more effectively. He's also quicker than BI and makes faster decisions offensively.
People keep harping on comparing his numbers to guys similar to him at the same age, which is a fallacy. Apples and oranges. Athletic potential has a lot to do with it.
The problem is he doesn't make up for it with elite shooting. |
So how does Lonzo take more advantage of his athleticism then Ingram does out of his length when he can't even make a damn layup in traffic?
How does Kuzma take more advantage of his more developed body and above average athleticism when his advanced numbers are just as trash as Ingram despite him being more grown into his body?
Is Josh Hart taking more advantage of his athleticism then Ingram does with his length or is he just our best shooter and a great 3+D role player?
What the benefit of Ingram's length not apparent when Derozan was destroying our team in the 4th quarter the other game? Or we gonna ignore that and just think about the wins we get without Ingram _________________ “Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
you completely widened the goal posts..
A lot of the attacking+finishing aspect of basketball is about angles; you use speed to get a bit of an advantage of an angle, and then Hart's finishing move is more effective... Same w/ Kuz, he attacks with speed off the dribble, and gets a good angle for his flips around the rim, or even his longer floaters...
Zo has been getting to the rim more...but more importantly, when he's at his best he pushes the pace and manipulates the defense in transition
Ingram not only has below avg quickness, but he purposely plays at his non-fastest pace..makes for a lot of tough shots..in the midrange, as well as his poor % at the rim - he has Center length, he should not shoot a bad % at the rim.. it's because he's not athletic |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sentient Meat Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014 Posts: 12978
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We lost to San Antonio the first two times because no Chandler and Ingram
We lost to them the last time because no one could slow DeRozan
It takes several players with varying skill sets to create an ideal team
It's possible 3 stars and 9 substandard players can win a title.
However, there is more than one path to success.
As long as some of you have this tunnel vision that only 3 superstars can win and we can't do as well with two stars and a deeper bench... I don't know what else can be said.
I think we could or still can compete this year if our players start shooting better with only LBJ.
It takes absolutely no imagination to say trade the team for a second star over and over in a loop.
It takes a lot more sophistication to find answers with the players that you have.
In Apollo 13, mission control was tasked to find an engineering solution by using only items aboard the craft.
Some of you just keep saying trade for AD... without any comprehension of the situation other than the mere fact that AD is good.
If you were in charge of the Apollo mission... those astronauts would have all died.
It's more useful to try to find solutions for this team with these pieces instead of mindlessly trading four pieces for someone who has won absolutely nothing.
Last edited by Sentient Meat on Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tj24 Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 May 2010 Posts: 651
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | he has Center length, he should not shoot a bad % at the rim.. it's because he's not athletic |
more to do with being a twig. hes athletic enough. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LakerLogic Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 17886
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I already addressed Lonzo, not an athleticism issue, his skill-set is lacking when it comes to scoring.
Why bring up Hart and Kuzma? They're not being compared to Kawhi, George, Giannis and any other good wing in this league.
FWIW, if Kuzma keeps playing like he has over the last 6 games, he is the guy in our core that has the highest likelihood of becoming an All-Star level player. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011 Posts: 6697
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | you completely widened the goal posts..
A lot of the attacking+finishing aspect of basketball is about angles; you use speed to get a bit of an advantage of an angle, and then Hart's finishing move is more effective... Same w/ Kuz, he attacks with speed off the dribble, and gets a good angle for his flips around the rim, or even his longer floaters...
Zo has been getting to the rim more...but more importantly, when he's at his best he pushes the pace and manipulates the defense in transition
Ingram not only has below avg quickness, but he purposely plays at his non-fastest pace..makes for a lot of tough shots..in the midrange, as well as his poor % at the rim - he has Center length, he should not shoot a bad % at the rim.. it's because he's not athletic |
Brandon Ingram shot 68% at the rim last season and got to the line 5 times a line, for a huge part of the season he was one of the better players in the league getting to the rim.
So I'm just wondering, did he magically get less athletic then last season? Since you said his poor % at the rim is because he's not athletic, he had a good percentage last season.
Was he athletic last year and not this year? Or is saying he's not athletic just an easier thing to do since it allows you to skip actual basketball analysis? _________________ “Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011 Posts: 6697
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LakerLogic wrote: | I already addressed Lonzo, not an athleticism issue, his skill-set is lacking when it comes to scoring.
Why bring up Hart and Kuzma? They're not being compared to Kawhi, George, Giannis and any other good wing in this league.
FWIW, if Kuzma keeps playing like he has over the last 6 games, he is the guy in our core that has the highest likelihood of becoming an All-Star level player. |
The debate was that Lonzo, Kuzma and Hart take more advantage of their athleticism then Ingram does. I don't care about angles fam, Lonzo is one of the worst finishers we have EVER seen, he has taken ZERO advantage of his athleticism or strength in that regard. He's not just bad, he's literally pathetic at finishing at the rim.
Why bring up Hart and Kuzma? Because they're the other two members of our young core who get direct comparisons to being better then Ingram next to Lebron without acknowledging them being two years old and more developed? Should we only bring them up to highlight Ingram being the worst next to Lebron or something? _________________ “Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tj24 wrote: | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | he has Center length, he should not shoot a bad % at the rim.. it's because he's not athletic |
more to do with being a twig. hes athletic enough. |
That is a big factor , too - but creating advantages and angles on your way to the rim - so there's less contact...that's a big part of it |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
1ngr4m wrote: | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | you completely widened the goal posts..
A lot of the attacking+finishing aspect of basketball is about angles; you use speed to get a bit of an advantage of an angle, and then Hart's finishing move is more effective... Same w/ Kuz, he attacks with speed off the dribble, and gets a good angle for his flips around the rim, or even his longer floaters...
Zo has been getting to the rim more...but more importantly, when he's at his best he pushes the pace and manipulates the defense in transition
Ingram not only has below avg quickness, but he purposely plays at his non-fastest pace..makes for a lot of tough shots..in the midrange, as well as his poor % at the rim - he has Center length, he should not shoot a bad % at the rim.. it's because he's not athletic |
Brandon Ingram shot 68% at the rim last season and got to the line 5 times a line, for a huge part of the season he was one of the better players in the league getting to the rim.
So I'm just wondering, did he magically get less athletic then last season? Since you said his poor % at the rim is because he's not athletic, he had a good percentage last season.
Was he athletic last year and not this year? Or is saying he's not athletic just an easier thing to do since it allows you to skip actual basketball analysis? |
not thinking his below avg athleticism hinders his game, is poor analysis.
He can't adjust to meeting an extra defender at the rim this year, in large part because they can get to that help spot in time with no problem - because he doesn't have the speed to beat a player or a defense to the rim. He gets rode to the rim because he can't get separation, and then the help big gets there in time, no problem.
You have Center length, dunk on more people |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LakerLogic Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 17886
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You brought up Kuzma, Hart, and Lonzo in response to my post. They have nothing to do with Ingram and his potential. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011 Posts: 6697
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LakerLogic wrote: | You brought up Kuzma, Hart, and Lonzo in response to my post. They have nothing to do with Ingram and his potential. |
They're members of the Lakers young core, and currently no one knows which guys are gonna stay with this team long term so why can't I bring them up? If we talk about one member not having certain advantages, what's the fault in highlighting that other guys aren't much more advanced in those regards either? _________________ “Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011 Posts: 6697
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | 1ngr4m wrote: | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | you completely widened the goal posts..
A lot of the attacking+finishing aspect of basketball is about angles; you use speed to get a bit of an advantage of an angle, and then Hart's finishing move is more effective... Same w/ Kuz, he attacks with speed off the dribble, and gets a good angle for his flips around the rim, or even his longer floaters...
Zo has been getting to the rim more...but more importantly, when he's at his best he pushes the pace and manipulates the defense in transition
Ingram not only has below avg quickness, but he purposely plays at his non-fastest pace..makes for a lot of tough shots..in the midrange, as well as his poor % at the rim - he has Center length, he should not shoot a bad % at the rim.. it's because he's not athletic |
Brandon Ingram shot 68% at the rim last season and got to the line 5 times a line, for a huge part of the season he was one of the better players in the league getting to the rim.
So I'm just wondering, did he magically get less athletic then last season? Since you said his poor % at the rim is because he's not athletic, he had a good percentage last season.
Was he athletic last year and not this year? Or is saying he's not athletic just an easier thing to do since it allows you to skip actual basketball analysis? |
not thinking his below avg athleticism hinders his game, is poor analysis.
He can't adjust to meeting an extra defender at the rim this year, in large part because they can get to that help spot in time with no problem - because he doesn't have the speed to beat a player or a defense to the rim. He gets rode to the rim because he can't get separation, and then the help big gets there in time, no problem.
You have Center length, dunk on more people |
Quote: | he should not shoot a bad % at the rim.. it's because he's not athletic |
You said this. He shot a good % at the rim, while drawing fouls in the process last year as a sophomore. Why is athleticism to blame now when he's shown the ability to finish at the rim and draw fouls at the time. If can't do it because he's not athletic then he shouldn't have been able to do it last year.
Brandon Ingram is a below average athlete, we all know that but your point makes zero sense because he's shown that ability last year. It seems like such a blanket statement _________________ “Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LakerLogic Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 17886
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
1ngr4m wrote: | LakerLogic wrote: | You brought up Kuzma, Hart, and Lonzo in response to my post. They have nothing to do with Ingram and his potential. |
They're members of the Lakers young core, and currently no one knows which guys are gonna stay with this team long term so why can't I bring them up? If we talk about one member not having certain advantages, what's the fault in highlighting that other guys aren't much more advanced in those regards either? |
For one, Ingram is the one being compared to Kawhi, Giannis, etc by age. So people are projecting superstardom for him. He is a #2 pick, different expectations. I've been an Ingram supporter but I don't think he is as good as those guys even at the same age. Like I said prior, if he improves his shooting he has a completely different trajectory but he is a long way to go from that. Poor form and technique. No improvement at the FT line or from 3. He is still a project in his 3rd year. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tj24 Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 May 2010 Posts: 651
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | tj24 wrote: | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | he has Center length, he should not shoot a bad % at the rim.. it's because he's not athletic |
more to do with being a twig. hes athletic enough. |
That is a big factor , too - but creating advantages and angles on your way to the rim - so there's less contact...that's a big part of it |
Angles and lanes he had last year aren't there with mcgee loitering around and lonzo being left wide open.
Sure he doesn't have elite quickness or athleticism so theres usually going to be some contact but he's not some jabroni that can't jump or get by anyone at all. He's an average, maybe slightly above average, athlete with bad footwork and a bird chest..
20 lbs added, some footwork improvement and that contact turns into free throws. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tj24 wrote: | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | tj24 wrote: | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | he has Center length, he should not shoot a bad % at the rim.. it's because he's not athletic |
more to do with being a twig. hes athletic enough. |
That is a big factor , too - but creating advantages and angles on your way to the rim - so there's less contact...that's a big part of it |
Angles and lanes he had last year aren't there with mcgee loitering around and lonzo being left wide open.
Sure he doesn't have elite quickness or athleticism so theres usually going to be some contact but he's not some jabroni that can't jump or get by anyone at all. He's an average, maybe slightly above average, athlete with bad footwork and a bird chest..
20 lbs added, some footwork improvement and that contact turns into free throws. |
Which he'll then go 1-2 on. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sentient Meat Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014 Posts: 12978
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LakerLogic wrote: | 1ngr4m wrote: | LakerLogic wrote: | You brought up Kuzma, Hart, and Lonzo in response to my post. They have nothing to do with Ingram and his potential. |
They're members of the Lakers young core, and currently no one knows which guys are gonna stay with this team long term so why can't I bring them up? If we talk about one member not having certain advantages, what's the fault in highlighting that other guys aren't much more advanced in those regards either? |
For one, Ingram is the one being compared to Kawhi, Giannis, etc by age. So people are projecting superstardom for him. He is a #2 pick, different expectations. I've been an Ingram supporter but I don't think he is as good as those guys even at the same age. Like I said prior, if he improves his shooting he has a completely different trajectory but he is a long way to go from that. Poor form and technique. No improvement at the FT line or from 3. He is still a project in his 3rd year. |
Not one person supporting Ingram on this board has predicted his superstardom.
The only reason those comps are brought up is because he compares favorably to them at 20 years old, meaning we don't know what he will become and that we shouldn't give up on him.
I've seen few predict he'll become an all star or second option.
There is a huge difference between wanting to keep a player to see his potential and predicting stardom.
It's unfair to portray his supporters in that delusional light. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
The Juggernaut Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 4572
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Ariza rumors tell me that BI is gonna be out for at least 4 weeks |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ibitegirls Star Player
Joined: 29 Dec 2011 Posts: 4204
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Juggernaut wrote: | The Ariza rumors tell me that BI is gonna be out for at least 4 weeks |
4 week ankle sprain? don't scare me fam |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Lakesh0wtime Star Player
Joined: 28 Mar 2016 Posts: 5377
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Juggernaut wrote: | The Ariza rumors tell me that BI is gonna be out for at least 4 weeks |
crap if hes out 4 weeks. ill just jump over to jesusdonla's thinking and just conclude dude is brittle AF.
Hope not tho hha |
|
Back to top |
|
|
awntawn Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 Apr 2016 Posts: 953
|
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Lakesh0wtime wrote: | The Juggernaut wrote: | The Ariza rumors tell me that BI is gonna be out for at least 4 weeks |
crap if hes out 4 weeks. ill just jump over to jesusdonla's thinking and just conclude dude is brittle AF.
Hope not tho hha |
One person makes stuff up completely out of their ass, another person replies to it with the "I know it's not real, but if it was", and someone else goes "well, if that's the case, then" and in 3 pages it will be accepted as truth |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|