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ribeye Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 12640
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: |
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ChefLinda wrote: | Quote: | Kenneth P. Vogel @kenvogel
INTERESTING TIMING: A member of the Saudi Royal Air Force who was one of the 15 Saudis allegedly involved in the killing of JAMAL KHASHOGGI has died in a car accident in Riyadh, according to a Turkish media report.
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First rule of assassination: Get rid of the assassins. Bonus points if you make it look like an accident. Or it's just a coincidence. |
Vladimir Trump-un approves this message. _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: |
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I have not followed the thread closely in regards to the Saudi's killing of Khashoggi, but from watching television in recent days, I am surprised that the media is so shocked by the sickening claims of Turkey. I get it is one of their own (media/journalist), and that it likely hits home with them more.....but this is what and how the repressive regime of Saudi Arabia has acted for......ever. The ruling family in Saudi Arabia has for the most part always been an evil regime that sanctions oppression and disgusting acts on its own citizens. Nothing really new here. Are they as repressive and dangerous to global peace as countries like Iran and Syria? No.....but that in no way ever suggested they were a good or decent nation.
Also, there seem to be cries of what is Trump going to do in response. I really do not understand what they think Trump or the United States should do. As I said previously, the Kindgom does evil (bleep) daily.....and have been one of our strategic allies for decades. I know Khashoggi has resided in the US for about a year, and attended college in the US....but he was not a US citizen or even long time resident of the US. (if I am incorrect, I welcome someone to correct my timeline as I admit I am not certain of when he resided in the US). So what can the US do? The people that are demanding some type action in response from the US....what is the action you desire? It is a million times more complicated than saying we are just no longer allies. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia is mutually beneficial to both nations. |
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VicXLakers Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 11823
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: |
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^ uninformed voters are the bane of this country |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:24 am Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | I have not followed the thread closely in regards to the Saudi's killing of Khashoggi, but from watching television in recent days, I am surprised that the media is so shocked by the sickening claims of Turkey. I get it is one of their own (media/journalist), and that it likely hits home with them more.....but this is what and how the repressive regime of Saudi Arabia has acted for......ever. The ruling family in Saudi Arabia has for the most part always been an evil regime that sanctions oppression and disgusting acts on its own citizens. Nothing really new here. Are they as repressive and dangerous to global peace as countries like Iran and Syria? No.....but that in no way ever suggested they were a good or decent nation.
Also, there seem to be cries of what is Trump going to do in response. I really do not understand what they think Trump or the United States should do. As I said previously, the Kindgom does evil (bleep) daily.....and have been one of our strategic allies for decades. I know Khashoggi has resided in the US for about a year, and attended college in the US....but he was not a US citizen or even long time resident of the US. (if I am incorrect, I welcome someone to correct my timeline as I admit I am not certain of when he resided in the US). So what can the US do? The people that are demanding some type action in response from the US....what is the action you desire? It is a million times more complicated than saying we are just no longer allies. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia is mutually beneficial to both nations. |
It is true that the US relationship with Saudi Arabia and Iran are complicated (we have in recent times sided with the Saudis over Iran backed rebels in Yemen while simultaneously siding with iran against Saudi backed forces in Iraq and Syria), and neither are good actors (there are no good actors in the middle east IMO, including us).
But this is a really simple one. You don't allow a country to lure a journalist living in your country and working for one of your pre-eminent news organizations to come to another country where they then abduct and murder him in horrific fashion, and not only don't do anything about it, but test run their cover story for them. Especially when you have business conflicts of interest in the situation (that are grossly illegal BTW). And especially when you by almost absolute certainty knew it was going to happen ahead of time.
1. You condemn the action.
2. You impose some sort of sanction.
Period.
Unless of course the idea of killing critical journalists appeals to you. The Saudis are either so bold as to ignore the basic idea of what an incredible taboo this is (and I'm not speaking for the human rights angle, which is obvious, but the simple angle of you don't do this to another sovereign nation, especially a powerful one you rely on), or else they've been given permission. Either of those things are very very bad. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:25 am Post subject: |
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VicXLakers wrote: | ^ uninformed voters are the bane of this country |
in reference to me? |
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ribeye Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 12640
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:28 am Post subject: |
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In the last five weeks or so:
HuffPo's aggregate shows a 2.0 point gain for the leader of the Republican Party.
FiveThirtyEight shows a 2.7 point gain over a similar period.
RCP shows a 3.3 gain.
Is there anyone, especially conservatives, willing to explain why this would be?
What, siding with assassination squads, attacking Taylor Swift, name calling Stormy horse-face (though her retort was perfect) and not visiting the troops, is good news? _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:30 am Post subject: |
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One of the things the US has consistently stood for is that it's not acceptable to murder journalists, and especially that you can't murder our journalists. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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VicXLakers Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 11823
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:32 am Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | VicXLakers wrote: | ^ uninformed voters are the bane of this country |
in reference to me? |
All fox viewers |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:35 am Post subject: |
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The whole "media/journalists are the enemy of the people" rhetoric pushed by Trump needs to stop immediately, especially after this.
Such dangerous times for journalists. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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The Lebrons Star Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2009 Posts: 4778
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:39 am Post subject: |
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ribeye wrote: | In the last five weeks or so:
HuffPo's aggregate shows a 2.0 point gain for the leader of the Republican Party.
FiveThirtyEight shows a 2.7 point gain over a similar period.
RCP shows a 3.3 gain.
Is there anyone, especially conservatives, willing to explain why this would be?
What, siding with assassination squads, attacking Taylor Swift, name calling Stormy horse-face (though her retort was perfect) and not visiting the troops, is good news? |
Katie Porter, too liberal for Orange County |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | adkindo wrote: | I have not followed the thread closely in regards to the Saudi's killing of Khashoggi, but from watching television in recent days, I am surprised that the media is so shocked by the sickening claims of Turkey. I get it is one of their own (media/journalist), and that it likely hits home with them more.....but this is what and how the repressive regime of Saudi Arabia has acted for......ever. The ruling family in Saudi Arabia has for the most part always been an evil regime that sanctions oppression and disgusting acts on its own citizens. Nothing really new here. Are they as repressive and dangerous to global peace as countries like Iran and Syria? No.....but that in no way ever suggested they were a good or decent nation.
Also, there seem to be cries of what is Trump going to do in response. I really do not understand what they think Trump or the United States should do. As I said previously, the Kindgom does evil (bleep) daily.....and have been one of our strategic allies for decades. I know Khashoggi has resided in the US for about a year, and attended college in the US....but he was not a US citizen or even long time resident of the US. (if I am incorrect, I welcome someone to correct my timeline as I admit I am not certain of when he resided in the US). So what can the US do? The people that are demanding some type action in response from the US....what is the action you desire? It is a million times more complicated than saying we are just no longer allies. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia is mutually beneficial to both nations. |
It is true that the US relationship with Saudi Arabia and Iran are complicated (we have in recent times sided with the Saudis over Iran backed rebels in Yemen while simultaneously siding with iran against Saudi backed forces in Iraq and Syria), and neither are good actors (there are no good actors in the middle east IMO, including us).
But this is a really simple one. You don't allow a country to lure a journalist living in your country and working for one of your pre-eminent news organizations to come to another country where they then abduct and murder him in horrific fashion, and not only don't do anything about it, but test run their cover story for them. Especially when you have business conflicts of interest in the situation (that are grossly illegal BTW). And especially when you by almost absolute certainty knew it was going to happen ahead of time.
1. You condemn the action.
2. You impose some sort of sanction.
Period.
Unless of course the idea of killing critical journalists appeals to you. The Saudis are either so bold as to ignore the basic idea of what an incredible taboo this is (and I'm not speaking for the human rights angle, which is obvious, but the simple angle of you don't do this to another sovereign nation, especially a powerful one you rely on), or else they've been given permission. Either of those things are very very bad. |
Ok....like I said...the rulers of this country are bad people, and have always been bad people. I would not trust a word from them without verification, nor would I with Turkey. Both will always have a personal angle. I am fine with some type of sanction......not sure what that would be, and the reality is the relationship is not like some where we have 90%+ of the leverage. We have leverage, but have to be mindful of their response....because it could be harmful to the US from both an economic and security perspective. My overall point was I am not really surprised.....it is awful....it makes any decent human sick to think about....but just read their criminal justice punishments on an average week, or how they treat their females and it becomes much less shocking. |
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ribeye Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 12640
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:40 am Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | It is a million times more complicated than saying we are just no longer allies. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia is mutually beneficial to both nations. |
Is it? Or is it that Saudi Arabia has money and the plutocratic types in this country enjoy their share (at, of course, the expense of the Saudi people). Yes, they have oil. But oil today does not have the value as in the past. Yes, they occupy a geographic position of strategic value, but they are one of many. Yes they buy our military hardware, but maybe we can live without such sales that benefit the few.
Remember, all this Al-Qaeda crap and Isis crap have their roots in that f-ing country. Fifteen freeking Saudi's attacked this country with financial aid from that country and we shrug our shoulders . . . and attack Iraq.
How about we let Russia and China fight over them? _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:45 am Post subject: |
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ribeye wrote: | In the last five weeks or so:
HuffPo's aggregate shows a 2.0 point gain for the leader of the Republican Party.
FiveThirtyEight shows a 2.7 point gain over a similar period.
RCP shows a 3.3 gain.
Is there anyone, especially conservatives, willing to explain why this would be?
What, siding with assassination squads, attacking Taylor Swift, name calling Stormy horse-face (though her retort was perfect) and not visiting the troops, is good news? |
the real answer in my opinion for some of the gains....especially the ones related to his personal approval rating is for much of that time, Trump was less vocal due to the Kavanaugh hearings. His approval ratings have a slight lag....so some of the things you mentioned like calling Daniels a name could still show up in the coming days. When he is not making headlines on Twitter, it allows independents and less partisan voters to evaluate things more clearly.
again, just my opinion. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I get that Saudi Arabia is a strategic ally both militarily and economically, and no, we don't want Russia or China taking over that relationship. And yes, I get that we work with repressive regimes, and the arguments that we sometimes have to or sometimes shouldn't are both fair, but this is an egregious act that is for all intents and purposes equal to murdering that journalist on US soil. It's such a huge taboo that no western country would stand for it, and an ally doing it would face severe repercussions, even if that was less than strategically good for either side, because there's a general sovereignty issue that's larger.
It's not shocking that Saudi Arabia would do anything to one of its people, what's shocking is that they would risk this huge issue with another country, much less an ally. Until you realize that they have closely aligned interests with that ally's president, including a desire to stifle the press. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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vanexelent Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 30081
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | I get that Saudi Arabia is a strategic ally both militarily and economically, and no, we don't want Russia or China taking over that relationship. And yes, I get that we work with repressive regimes, and the arguments that we sometimes have to or sometimes shouldn't are both fair, but this is an egregious act that is for all intents and purposes equal to murdering that journalist on US soil. It's such a huge taboo that no western country would stand for it, and an ally doing it would face severe repercussions, even if that was less than strategically good for either side, because there's a general sovereignty issue that's larger.
It's not shocking that Saudi Arabia would do anything to one of its people, what's shocking is that they would risk this huge issue with another country, much less an ally. Until you realize that they have closely aligned interests with that ally's president, including a desire to stifle the press. |
Didn't these guys supply 80% of the 9/11 murderers? I'm thinking they don't care about our relationship. |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31970 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | adkindo wrote: | I have not followed the thread closely in regards to the Saudi's killing of Khashoggi, but from watching television in recent days, I am surprised that the media is so shocked by the sickening claims of Turkey. I get it is one of their own (media/journalist), and that it likely hits home with them more.....but this is what and how the repressive regime of Saudi Arabia has acted for......ever. The ruling family in Saudi Arabia has for the most part always been an evil regime that sanctions oppression and disgusting acts on its own citizens. Nothing really new here. Are they as repressive and dangerous to global peace as countries like Iran and Syria? No.....but that in no way ever suggested they were a good or decent nation.
Also, there seem to be cries of what is Trump going to do in response. I really do not understand what they think Trump or the United States should do. As I said previously, the Kindgom does evil (bleep) daily.....and have been one of our strategic allies for decades. I know Khashoggi has resided in the US for about a year, and attended college in the US....but he was not a US citizen or even long time resident of the US. (if I am incorrect, I welcome someone to correct my timeline as I admit I am not certain of when he resided in the US). So what can the US do? The people that are demanding some type action in response from the US....what is the action you desire? It is a million times more complicated than saying we are just no longer allies. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia is mutually beneficial to both nations. |
It is true that the US relationship with Saudi Arabia and Iran are complicated (we have in recent times sided with the Saudis over Iran backed rebels in Yemen while simultaneously siding with iran against Saudi backed forces in Iraq and Syria), and neither are good actors (there are no good actors in the middle east IMO, including us).
But this is a really simple one. You don't allow a country to lure a journalist living in your country and working for one of your pre-eminent news organizations to come to another country where they then abduct and murder him in horrific fashion, and not only don't do anything about it, but test run their cover story for them. Especially when you have business conflicts of interest in the situation (that are grossly illegal BTW). And especially when you by almost absolute certainty knew it was going to happen ahead of time.
1. You condemn the action.
2. You impose some sort of sanction.
Period.
Unless of course the idea of killing critical journalists appeals to you. The Saudis are either so bold as to ignore the basic idea of what an incredible taboo this is (and I'm not speaking for the human rights angle, which is obvious, but the simple angle of you don't do this to another sovereign nation, especially a powerful one you rely on), or else they've been given permission. Either of those things are very very bad. |
Wasn't it just reported that Saudi Arabia transferred $100MM to the U.S.? Of course that's not an official sanction, and it's just a drop in the bucket, but I'm sure it's not coincidental. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | adkindo wrote: | I have not followed the thread closely in regards to the Saudi's killing of Khashoggi, but from watching television in recent days, I am surprised that the media is so shocked by the sickening claims of Turkey. I get it is one of their own (media/journalist), and that it likely hits home with them more.....but this is what and how the repressive regime of Saudi Arabia has acted for......ever. The ruling family in Saudi Arabia has for the most part always been an evil regime that sanctions oppression and disgusting acts on its own citizens. Nothing really new here. Are they as repressive and dangerous to global peace as countries like Iran and Syria? No.....but that in no way ever suggested they were a good or decent nation.
Also, there seem to be cries of what is Trump going to do in response. I really do not understand what they think Trump or the United States should do. As I said previously, the Kindgom does evil (bleep) daily.....and have been one of our strategic allies for decades. I know Khashoggi has resided in the US for about a year, and attended college in the US....but he was not a US citizen or even long time resident of the US. (if I am incorrect, I welcome someone to correct my timeline as I admit I am not certain of when he resided in the US). So what can the US do? The people that are demanding some type action in response from the US....what is the action you desire? It is a million times more complicated than saying we are just no longer allies. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia is mutually beneficial to both nations. |
It is true that the US relationship with Saudi Arabia and Iran are complicated (we have in recent times sided with the Saudis over Iran backed rebels in Yemen while simultaneously siding with iran against Saudi backed forces in Iraq and Syria), and neither are good actors (there are no good actors in the middle east IMO, including us).
But this is a really simple one. You don't allow a country to lure a journalist living in your country and working for one of your pre-eminent news organizations to come to another country where they then abduct and murder him in horrific fashion, and not only don't do anything about it, but test run their cover story for them. Especially when you have business conflicts of interest in the situation (that are grossly illegal BTW). And especially when you by almost absolute certainty knew it was going to happen ahead of time.
1. You condemn the action.
2. You impose some sort of sanction.
Period.
Unless of course the idea of killing critical journalists appeals to you. The Saudis are either so bold as to ignore the basic idea of what an incredible taboo this is (and I'm not speaking for the human rights angle, which is obvious, but the simple angle of you don't do this to another sovereign nation, especially a powerful one you rely on), or else they've been given permission. Either of those things are very very bad. |
Wasn't it just reported that Saudi Arabia transferred $100MM to the U.S.? Of course that's not an official sanction, and it's just a drop in the bucket, but I'm sure it's not coincidental. |
I don't think a payoff is the same as a sanction. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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VicXLakers Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 11823
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: |
Wasn't it just reported that Saudi Arabia transferred $100MM to the U.S.? Of course that's not an official sanction, and it's just a drop in the bucket, but I'm sure it's not coincidental. |
I don't think a payoff is the same as a sanction. |
good point |
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VicXLakers Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 11823
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Love the people on TV saying NOW we find out he's a bad businessman NOW we find out he was laundering money NOW we find out daddy gave him all that money NOW we find out the Russians and Saudis own a lot of trump property and on and on and on
Where have you never trumpers been??? |
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ContagiousInspiration Franchise Player
Joined: 07 May 2014 Posts: 13823 Location: Boulder ;)
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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VicXLakers wrote: | Love the people on TV saying NOW we find out he's a bad businessman NOW we find out he was laundering money NOW we find out daddy gave him all that money NOW we find out the Russians and Saudis own a lot of trump property and on and on and on
Where have you never trumpers been??? |
American Voters most gullible ignorant lazy bums in the history of western civilization
Needs to be some sort of voter education system
1. Research the candidate...America FAIL DEPLORABLE FAILING |
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splashmtn Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2016 Posts: 3961
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | One of the things the US has consistently stood for is that it's not acceptable to murder journalists, and especially that you can't murder our journalists. | the other poster is stating he wasnt one of "OUR" journalist. because he wasnt a US citizen. Doesnt matter who he worked for. or at least this will be the cove that Trumpovich will take to not have to do anything about it. |
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ribeye Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 12640
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | I get that Saudi Arabia is a strategic ally both militarily and economically, and no, we don't want Russia or China taking over that relationship. |
So, if the US Congress votes to sanction Saudi Arabia, and Saudi Arabia objects and stomps their feet, and says they are cutting ties with the US, what say ye? _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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splashmtn Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2016 Posts: 3961
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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ContagiousInspiration wrote: | VicXLakers wrote: | Love the people on TV saying NOW we find out he's a bad businessman NOW we find out he was laundering money NOW we find out daddy gave him all that money NOW we find out the Russians and Saudis own a lot of trump property and on and on and on
Where have you never trumpers been??? |
American Voters most gullible ignorant lazy bums in the history of western civilization
Needs to be some sort of voter education system
1. Research the candidate...America FAIL DEPLORABLE FAILING | all this is true but non of that will trump that racism and sexism, add any other ism you would like. we need to teach that out of the children of the next gen. cause this one is lost. that racism is like blind love. "oh my gosh i just fell in love with him the moment he said "build that wall." or when he said "there are good people on both sides" in response to charlottesville, nc, just made some feel all warm and fuzzy inside. what do you do about these types? |
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VicXLakers Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 11823
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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ContagiousInspiration wrote: | VicXLakers wrote: | Love the people on TV saying NOW we find out he's a bad businessman NOW we find out he was laundering money NOW we find out daddy gave him all that money NOW we find out the Russians and Saudis own a lot of trump property and on and on and on
Where have you never trumpers been??? |
American Voters most gullible ignorant lazy bums in the history of western civilization
Needs to be some sort of voter education system
1. Research the candidate...America FAIL DEPLORABLE FAILING |
All true but I was talking about Steve Schmidt Nicole Wallace and the rest of the republican wannabes Rosy was gushing over...
There is nothing new about trump that hasn't been known for years
I have a new litmus test ...would you vote for Nikki Haley if she ran as a republican |
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Hector the Pup Retired Number
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 35946 Location: L.A.
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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ribeye wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | I get that Saudi Arabia is a strategic ally both militarily and economically, and no, we don't want Russia or China taking over that relationship. |
So, if the US Congress votes to sanction Saudi Arabia, and Saudi Arabia objects and stomps their feet, and says they are cutting ties with the US, what say ye? |
They won't. They're on an island out there and the wahhabi would overrun the royal family in a heartbeat. |
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