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LAL25 Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Jun 2002 Posts: 885
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: |
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TheProdigy wrote: |
When all is said and done, it's all about being the most talented team. Our best hope is that our young players continue to develop to the point where we'll be such a team by the playoffs. |
Yes and no.
You look at the '04 finals and the Pistons ran them out because they had a much deeper bench but they also had very good coaching. In the WCFs vs Portland, they were clearly the better team talent-wise but Shaq, Kobe, Horry and Phil's coaching was enough to get them over the hump. Same story with Sacramento. Spurs and Pistons beating the Lakers = both teams had good coaching and better talent. But look at the Phoenix series last year - Lakers were definitely outmanned talent-wise but Phil's coaching was so much better than D'Antoni's that they were one rebound away from a major upset.
So Phil's coaching definitely has an imprint on this team, especially on a young team like this one. Personally I think it's a good gamble to sacrifice a couple of losses early on to get this young team in the right gear later on. |
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TLT Star Player
Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1025
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Phew...what smells? It will take a while to get over this thing. (I won't even call it a game) |
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lakersboy Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 8518 Location: Left coast
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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angrypuppy wrote: | Thanks DB.
That's the angriest I've been after a loss so far, but then again it's a young season.
Stupid basketball. Andrew came out looking great, contesting shots and getting rebounds. And what did the team do to reward his efforts? Freeze him out of the game.
No post entry passing... and it didn't matter if it was Kwame, Bynum or Lamar. Lamar in particular late in the game, because he was more than the Bucks could handle in the post, and unlike Andrew or Kwame, had more than enough touches to be primed and ready. I just don't get it.
The Bucks dictated the cadence of the game. For some strange reason, the Lakers decided that they wanted to challenge Michael Redd to a jump shooting competition, rather than work at breaking down the zone.
The game was almost winnable, but it had more to do with the competition than the Laker play. The Bucks have awful composure; they're not used to winning games, particularly on the road. And yet we gift wrapped it for them with that absolutely bone headed final meaningful possession with 16 seconds left. There was more than enough time to work for a better shot.
Quote: | Out of the timeout our execution fell apart, Kobe pulled the ball back out instead of giving it back to Lamar who was the inbounds man, which was the plan (LO wasn't really open)...the Bucks ran a box-and-one zone with Patterson and Kobe missed a 30-foot three. |
Yes Lamar was covered. I'm outside of LA, so I don't get the postgame press conferences. Wasn't Lamar supposed to move? Unless the entire play was predicated on the man defending the inbound pass having a brain seizure, it made little sense. The Lakers simply cleared out for Kobe to take that last shot. |
i was at the game with a buddy who's been complaining for 2 years that phil sends the lakers on the court after time outs without a game plan. i heard him keep repeating that after each time the lakers messed up but the last straw was the final shot.
kobe isnt quick enough to beat anyone off the dribble now. it made less than zero sense to run a play for him to shoot a 3 point shot against patterson without a screen. he needed some sort of screen or pick and roll to get himself OR SOMEONE open. he couldnt get around patterson who didnt bite on any fakes so kobe ended up backing up and chucking the ball up to the rim. he had been relatively hot on 3's, making jumpers in opponents face in this game and against the nets. the difference was, those werent on the last play when everyone knew they had to shoot a 3.
phil could have had them attack and try to get a layup within 5 seconds and then leave an option to steal or foul.
kobe simply doesnt have the ability to put his head down and beat guys off the dribble like he will when he gets stronger. i didnt have a problem with his 3's because they came when the team was struggling and brought them back and or kept them close.
the 4 biggest problems were 1) technical fouls cost them the game 2) no mid range game to break down the zone 3) failure to enter the ball to the post players (bynum kept waiting) 4) and phil's failure to provide a workable plan in the end. |
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karlmalonefan Star Player
Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 2608 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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angrypuppy wrote: | Thanks DB.
That's the angriest I've been after a loss so far, but then again it's a young season.
Stupid basketball. Andrew came out looking great, contesting shots and getting rebounds. And what did the team do to reward his efforts? Freeze him out of the game.
No post entry passing... and it didn't matter if it was Kwame, Bynum or Lamar. Lamar in particular late in the game, because he was more than the Bucks could handle in the post, and unlike Andrew or Kwame, had more than enough touches to be primed and ready. I just don't get it.
The Bucks dictated the cadence of the game. For some strange reason, the Lakers decided that they wanted to challenge Michael Redd to a jump shooting competition, rather than work at breaking down the zone.
The game was almost winnable, but it had more to do with the competition than the Laker play. The Bucks have awful composure; they're not used to winning games, particularly on the road. And yet we gift wrapped it for them with that absolutely bone headed final meaningful possession with 16 seconds left. There was more than enough time to work for a better shot.
Quote: | Out of the timeout our execution fell apart, Kobe pulled the ball back out instead of giving it back to Lamar who was the inbounds man, which was the plan (LO wasn't really open)...the Bucks ran a box-and-one zone with Patterson and Kobe missed a 30-foot three. |
Yes Lamar was covered. I'm outside of LA, so I don't get the postgame press conferences. Wasn't Lamar supposed to move? Unless the entire play was predicated on the man defending the inbound pass having a brain seizure, it made little sense. The Lakers simply cleared out for Kobe to take that last shot. | I'll see your angry and raise you my disgust. I agree with everything you said. When are they going to realize that LO is unstoppable in the post and put him there??? He is COMPLETELY WASTED passing the ball at the top of the key. POST LAMAR UP!!!! And God I hate it when Kobe plays like that...Hate It! We've got a tough stretch ahead. Utah won't be easy, neither will the Clips with their crowd behind them...can't believe we let an easy one get away like that. It's like after the first 5 minutes of the first quarter, we quit playing. Inexcusable. Oh, and Lamar was moving, as Kobe dribbled toward the basket, he rotated to take his place, but Kobe came back out so he moved back down the sideline to get out of his way. If Kobe had kept dribbling in, he could have passed it back to him. LO's defender was sagging off him to help on Kobe. _________________ Welcome to OverreactionGround.net, where a single possession can make you the savior of mankind or a total moron. -Ozendorph |
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angrypuppy Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 32762
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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karlmalonefan wrote: | angrypuppy wrote: | Thanks DB.
That's the angriest I've been after a loss so far, but then again it's a young season.
Stupid basketball. Andrew came out looking great, contesting shots and getting rebounds. And what did the team do to reward his efforts? Freeze him out of the game.
No post entry passing... and it didn't matter if it was Kwame, Bynum or Lamar. Lamar in particular late in the game, because he was more than the Bucks could handle in the post, and unlike Andrew or Kwame, had more than enough touches to be primed and ready. I just don't get it.
The Bucks dictated the cadence of the game. For some strange reason, the Lakers decided that they wanted to challenge Michael Redd to a jump shooting competition, rather than work at breaking down the zone.
The game was almost winnable, but it had more to do with the competition than the Laker play. The Bucks have awful composure; they're not used to winning games, particularly on the road. And yet we gift wrapped it for them with that absolutely bone headed final meaningful possession with 16 seconds left. There was more than enough time to work for a better shot.
Quote: | Out of the timeout our execution fell apart, Kobe pulled the ball back out instead of giving it back to Lamar who was the inbounds man, which was the plan (LO wasn't really open)...the Bucks ran a box-and-one zone with Patterson and Kobe missed a 30-foot three. |
Yes Lamar was covered. I'm outside of LA, so I don't get the postgame press conferences. Wasn't Lamar supposed to move? Unless the entire play was predicated on the man defending the inbound pass having a brain seizure, it made little sense. The Lakers simply cleared out for Kobe to take that last shot. | I'll see your angry and raise you my disgust. I agree with everything you said. When are they going to realize that LO is unstoppable in the post and put him there??? He is COMPLETELY WASTED passing the ball at the top of the key. POST LAMAR UP!!!! And God I hate it when Kobe plays like that...Hate It! We've got a tough stretch ahead. Utah won't be easy, neither will the Clips with their crowd behind them...can't believe we let an easy one get away like that. It's like after the first 5 minutes of the first quarter, we quit playing. Inexcusable. Oh, and Lamar was moving, as Kobe dribbled toward the basket, he rotated to take his place, but Kobe came back out so he moved back down the sideline to get out of his way. If Kobe had kept dribbling in, he could have passed it back to him. LO's defender was sagging off him to help on Kobe. |
I am not certain, but on that last (meaningful) possession, it looked like Kobe was trying to get Lamar to cut to the basket for a quick two, but he and Lamar were not on the same page. Kobe darted a few steps in the direction between Patterson and Lamar's defender, hoping to force Lamar's defender to commit to doubling Kobe. Lamar was still focused on a three, so Lamar moved along the arc instead of cutting toward the basket (he may have been trying to rotate to Kobe's spot as you said). Even if the defender didn't double Kobe, Lamar had a huge size mismatch in his favor. Yet when Lamar moved along the arc (still creating no space for Lamar to shoot), that plan was dashed. Thus Kobe reset by dribbling the ball further out.
Last edited by angrypuppy on Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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I'm typically a glass-half-full guy, especially about the Lakers, but I can't believe how rotten that game was. 37 3pt shots??? Are you kidding me?! And the center tandem gets 2 shots against a weak front line? I'm sorry, but me and 4 other old slow guys could play against a zone better than these guys. That's 2 games where a zone made the Lakers look very very stupid. What do you think the chances are that every team we face is working on a zone for us? Sad thing is that while the offense was horrible and the defense almost as bad, it was only a 4 point game. Should have won this in our sleep...
OK, I feel better now _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Terry_Teagle Starting Rotation
Joined: 22 Nov 2006 Posts: 836 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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I had a bad feeling about this game before it even started. Unfortunately this type of game play against bad teams has been going on for quite a while. Years actually. We just forget about them because usually we are able to pull these games out. For some reason though, we always find a way to have a coming out party for the biggest scrub on the opposing team. There are a variety of things we did not do to cause this loss: go inside(we should have ate them alive) and just plain old attack the basket. Energy level needs to be picked up also.
Before I make the following statement I want to say that I think Kobe is the BEST player in the NBA period, and laugh at the thought of trading him. But.......Kobe had a bad game(last couple actually!!!). Nothing to get excited about as he is still working himself into shape. He should be where he needs to be in about another 5 to 10 games and most(not all!) of the losing to sub par teams should disappear. |
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Addicus Star Player
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 9642 Location: Dave's Pimp Palace
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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I would have preferred to see a Farmar - Smush or Shammond backcourt since Sasha decided not get involved with the offense.
Besides that it would have been nice to have more people attack because shooting 3's and not getting the ball to the bigs is absolutely weak.
More than anything else the defense let us down. We refused to stop anyone at anytime. If Charlie Bell had been on we would have lost by 20. _________________ Stop crying and start doing.
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/addicusbrown |
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LakersSpirit Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 13619 Location: West Los Angeles
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Smush played a fantastic first period, and I don't want to demean the way he has improved his game, recently.... I do, however, want to stress, that Smush has his strengths, and weaknesses. Personally, I feel that Smush was played too long, in the 2nd period...
Our team started out great, doing the right things... I don't know what happened... Only those close enough to the game would know... All I can say, is that it looked like a totally different game, in the second period, and we were never able to fully recover... There is a lot of talk, about not being able to handle the zone defense. I saw that we started to kind of let down, and we started making foolish mistakes.
One thing I can say, for sure... When Farmar is in, it is a much more interesting game, for me... I guess Farmar might be "The Thinking Man's Point Guard". Farmar is young, but he may have the most polished game. I feel a sense of suspense, as to what Farmar will do next... How will he react, to the defense?? I haven't felt that feeling, since Magic Johnson, or Sedale Threatt. I guess, I really need a really good ballhandler, on the team I root for. My feeling is that Farmar could have helped pull this one out, if he had been given more playing time, earlier in the game. _________________ "Teamwork is a nebulous thing. It is as ephemeral as love, disappearing at the latest insult.".... Phil Jackson |
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A Mad Chinaman Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 6161
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:21 am Post subject: |
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LakersSpirit wrote: | Smush played a fantastic first period | Agreed. As a point of reference, there are four quarters - which people are the most interested/concerned how players react during crunch time.
I've offered the suggestion that Smush might be best suited to being the hired gun coming off the bench to change the tempo - ala somebody like Vinnie Johnson during the "Bad Boys" reign. He doesn't have to worry about the pressures of starting, doesn't have to worry about making many basketball decisions (his Achilles heel) cuz he's in there to create havoc/energy, not as concerned about defense (definitely not his strong suit) cuz his main goal is to change the game's tempo and he doens't have to worry about producing during crunch time cuz he won't be in the game. Of course, (if it happens this season) it will be late in the season.
As I have offered previously:
** Does he provide the ability to bring up the ball against any type of pressure - No
** Does he provide the ability to initiate the Triangle offense - No
** Does he have the ability to shoot (consistently) - No
** Does he have the ability to defend (consistently) - No
** Does he react well to pressure - No
** Is Smush blessed with very good athletic ability - Yes (that's what is so disappointing about him)
Within the Triangle system that involves all 5 players, having a PG that is not able to drive/slash/make shots/etc. - why is he on the court? |
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magic_bryant Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 18179
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:35 am Post subject: |
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A Mad Chinaman wrote: | LakersSpirit wrote: | Smush played a fantastic first period | Agreed. As a point of reference, there are four quarters - which people are the most interested/concerned how players react during crunch time.
I've offered the suggestion that Smush might be best suited to being the hired gun coming off the bench to change the tempo - ala somebody like Vinnie Johnson during the "Bad Boys" reign. He doesn't have to worry about the pressures of starting, doesn't have to worry about making many basketball decisions (his Achilles heel) cuz he's in there to create havoc/energy, not as concerned about defense (definitely not his strong suit) cuz his main goal is to change the game's tempo and he doens't have to worry about producing during crunch time cuz he won't be in the game. Of course, (if it happens this season) it will be late in the season.
As I have offered previously:
** Does he provide the ability to bring up the ball against any type of pressure - No
** Does he provide the ability to initiate the Triangle offense - No
** Does he have the ability to shoot (consistently) - No
** Does he have the ability to defend (consistently) - No
** Does he react well to pressure - No
** Is Smush blessed with very good athletic ability - Yes (that's what is so disappointing about him)
Within the Triangle system that involves all 5 players, having a PG that is not able to drive/slash/make shots/etc. - why is he on the court? |
My thoughts exactly.
At least Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Fisher, etc all had something they could rely on consistently. _________________ Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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A Mad Chinaman Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 6161
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: |
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magic_bryant wrote: | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | LakersSpirit wrote: | Smush played a fantastic first period | Agreed. As a point of reference, there are four quarters - which people are the most interested/concerned how players react during crunch time.
I've offered the suggestion that Smush might be best suited to being the hired gun coming off the bench to change the tempo - ala somebody like Vinnie Johnson during the "Bad Boys" reign. He doesn't have to worry about the pressures of starting, doesn't have to worry about making many basketball decisions (his Achilles heel) cuz he's in there to create havoc/energy, not as concerned about defense (definitely not his strong suit) cuz his main goal is to change the game's tempo and he doens't have to worry about producing during crunch time cuz he won't be in the game. Of course, (if it happens this season) it will be late in the season.
As I have offered previously:
** Does he provide the ability to bring up the ball against any type of pressure - No
** Does he provide the ability to initiate the Triangle offense - No
** Does he have the ability to shoot (consistently) - No
** Does he have the ability to defend (consistently) - No
** Does he react well to pressure - No
** Is Smush blessed with very good athletic ability - Yes (that's what is so disappointing about him)
Within the Triangle system that involves all 5 players, having a PG that is not able to drive/slash/make shots/etc. - why is he on the court? | My thoughts exactly. At least Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Fisher, etc all had something they could rely on consistently. | How to find the right role for Smush is Phil's dilemma.
** He has sent signals throught the press
** He has dropped his PT
What choices should the Lakers consider? |
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lakersboy Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 8518 Location: Left coast
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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A Mad Chinaman wrote: | magic_bryant wrote: | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | LakersSpirit wrote: | Smush played a fantastic first period | Agreed. As a point of reference, there are four quarters - which people are the most interested/concerned how players react during crunch time.
I've offered the suggestion that Smush might be best suited to being the hired gun coming off the bench to change the tempo - ala somebody like Vinnie Johnson during the "Bad Boys" reign. He doesn't have to worry about the pressures of starting, doesn't have to worry about making many basketball decisions (his Achilles heel) cuz he's in there to create havoc/energy, not as concerned about defense (definitely not his strong suit) cuz his main goal is to change the game's tempo and he doens't have to worry about producing during crunch time cuz he won't be in the game. Of course, (if it happens this season) it will be late in the season.
As I have offered previously:
** Does he provide the ability to bring up the ball against any type of pressure - No
** Does he provide the ability to initiate the Triangle offense - No
** Does he have the ability to shoot (consistently) - No
** Does he have the ability to defend (consistently) - No
** Does he react well to pressure - No
** Is Smush blessed with very good athletic ability - Yes (that's what is so disappointing about him)
Within the Triangle system that involves all 5 players, having a PG that is not able to drive/slash/make shots/etc. - why is he on the court? | My thoughts exactly. At least Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Fisher, etc all had something they could rely on consistently. | How to find the right role for Smush is Phil's dilemma.
** He has sent signals throught the press
** He has dropped his PT
What choices should the Lakers consider? |
to be fair, the lakers needed penetration in that game and jordan didnt do it either......nobody did other than smush a couple times early in the game before the bucks went into their zone. the lakers needed someone who had a mid range game to get into a seam and make 12-16 ft shots. farmar penetrated a few times but needed to do some kind of pull up shot or a floater of some sort. lamar at the top of the zone and not in the box was another problem. you dont need your 6'10 pf shooting 3's. you need him down low creating havoc and rebounding.
ultimately, i think smush is going to wind up on the bench THIS season, probably after the all star break. jackson is going to have to make some tough decisions with his lineup like he did when he pulled cook and inserted luke late last season, for the betterment of the team. |
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sergek Starting Rotation
Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 181 Location: New York
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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mo williams and redd torched us. phil shudv given bynum and kwame some more looks, the bucks have no inside presence. andrew bogut just takes charges |
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lakersboy Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 8518 Location: Left coast
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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i agree. the lakers showed NO patience in trying to get the ball inside. phil blamed andrew and kwame for not sealing better but to me the whole thing is about timing. when they have the guy sealed, you have to throw it right away or else the passing lane is gone. they delayed and then happily threw it to the other side of the floor where the only option was to launch a long shot.
if i was a big man, i would have been screaming from frustration. andrew might put his home up for sale and demand a trade to the heat for a scrub
and an overpaid vet.
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LakersSpirit Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 13619 Location: West Los Angeles
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Use your tools wisely, Phil!!... :roll: _________________ "Teamwork is a nebulous thing. It is as ephemeral as love, disappearing at the latest insult.".... Phil Jackson |
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Aderedsterter96 Rookie
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 1
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. EiGhTy-OnE Star Player
Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 8272 Location: San Diego, CA
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