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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144591 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Socks wrote: | Give Cook consistent starter minutes and he'll give up as many points as he scores. |
That opinion is contrary to what has actually happened since Mihm went out and Cook began getting more minutes.
Does anyone else find it ironic that twice in the first half Kobe passed the ball to Cook to bail the team out with the shot clock running out? _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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dewit8 Sixth Man
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 28
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: |
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I love the fact that Cook got 7 and 10 boards two out of the last three games, but he can't board. He committed no fouls last night, but he can't play defense. He doesn't drive, yet last night he dunked after head-faking Stromile Swift, and drove on another play that drew a foul. The last two nights are a microcosm for this team. When Kobe and Phil show confidence in a player, he, in turn, plays much better. When our players walk onto the court knowing Kobe thinks they suck, and knowing Phil will yank them as soon as they screw up, they play not to screw up. And that usually makes it worse. Will Cook score like this every night? Probably not. But he can shoot, he can rebound, he can play inside, and he can play defense-- IF he's allowed to do so without the feeling he could get yelled out for one mistake. |
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Walter Sobchak Star Player
Joined: 14 May 2003 Posts: 4520 Location: Hollywood, Ca.
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Hasn't Cook said he plays better when he starts cause he's all warmed up or something to that effect? I think depending on the matchup, Cook is a legit starter. If there's an imposing post player on the other team, then maybe Cook should come off the bench, although sometimes against those types of players he could be used to pull them away from the basket on defense if the Lakers go with a small lineup (not to start though).
I liked that last night Kobe was really looking for Cook and Smush to try to get them going first. At times I thought Kobe was maybe too unselfish in the first half, but I can't argue with the results. Kobe has the confidence in himself to know he can turn it on whenever, so it was great to see him trying to make sure some other scorers were established first. Kudos all around _________________ "People don't think it be like it is, but it do." - Oscar Gamble
Just a reminder folks: "a lot" is two words. So is "no one". |
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iml84myd8s Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 598
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:53 am Post subject: |
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dewit8 wrote: | I love the fact that Cook got 7 and 10 boards two out of the last three games, but he can't board. He committed no fouls last night, but he can't play defense. He doesn't drive, yet last night he dunked after head-faking Stromile Swift, and drove on another play that drew a foul. The last two nights are a microcosm for this team. When Kobe and Phil show confidence in a player, he, in turn, plays much better. When our players walk onto the court knowing Kobe thinks they suck, and knowing Phil will yank them as soon as they screw up, they play not to screw up. And that usually makes it worse. Will Cook score like this every night? Probably not. But he can shoot, he can rebound, he can play inside, and he can play defense-- IF he's allowed to do so without the feeling he could get yelled out for one mistake. |
well said... |
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Smel Counts Star Player
Joined: 07 May 2005 Posts: 1744 Location: corner of Prairie and Manchester
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Cook must start. Kobe needs a safety valve on the floor with him as much as possible. Cook is the only other Laker who consistently shoots well enough to be that safety valve. Until we get another reliable safety valve, Cook needs to get big minutes.
Actually, we can afford to lost Odom minutes to foul trouble more than Cook minutes.
God we need more shooters. |
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El Ocho Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 131
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Hector the Pup wrote: | Please.
He's a spot shooter who can't hit with a hand in his face - he won't even try to shoot 99% of the time there is a hand in his face.
The guy is very easy to solve - don't leave him open. Do that and he's toast.
Just keep in mind that there are better defenders out there than Juwan Howard and Dirk Nowitzki. |
are they going to stop double teaming KOBE? no. so if someone statys with cook then someone else will be open. then its their turn to step up and score the J. that is why its a team effort. |
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Freakout Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 11796 Location: WV
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: |
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People forget when we went 5-1 on our first tough road trip it was without Kwame and Cook filling in. |
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BigVeece Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 261
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: |
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I love what cook is doing for this team right now.. lets not jump the gun though.. let him have a solid month or so.. just last week or so, everyone was ready to ship him out.. remember, he had a stretch like this last year too... so lets just sit and wait...
We'll see what everyone is saying about him when he puts up a crapy game... |
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ThePageDude Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 2625
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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dewit8 wrote: | I love the fact that Cook got 7 and 10 boards two out of the last three games, but he can't board.
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So just because he got 7 and 10 these last couple of games makes him a decent rebounder?
Please explain, then, why Cook ranks below virtually all starting, and many reserve, PFs, in the league in rebounding this season at 8.2 rebounds/48-minutes:
http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Rebounds.jsp?league=00&season=22005&conf=OVERALL&position=2&splitType=9&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=7&splitDD=All%20Teams
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He committed no fouls last night, but he can't play defense.
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His plus-minus for the season is negative. Yes, this is not proof that he's a weak defender (since ppl can argue maybe he's on the floor with weak rotations), but try to review his games for what happens when he's on the floor:
- if he's defending a true *power* forward (Juwan/Dirk aren't ones), he gets posted, early and often, is either outmuscled or outjumped.
- if teams have good, penetrating guards, they start having success going to the hole
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<snip>
he can rebound,
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Not if I believe actual rebounding numbers.
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he can play inside,
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errr, since when? I'll bet the vast majority of his pts are from 15ft & beyond
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and he can play defense--
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... yet despite being a superior scorer, somehow ends up making a net negative contribution to the team when he's on the floor? |
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mike_dee23 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 11703
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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I despised Cook last year... and still think he needs to play defense instead of just waiting to take charges... but he is the only dependable mid-range shooter on the Lakers. I just worry about those Cook-KG/Cook-Duncan matchups... but yeah, I'd say start him for now. |
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Tarzan008 Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 2761
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yes this is now quite apparent.......Cook and Kobe must be joined at the hip when it comes to court-time.....
Other teams were leaving the 4 & 1 spots to triple Kobe,to trap him as well.......
Kobe would see doubles and triples all game long now since the 81 point game......But With Cook showing he is a legit threat,teams now can only send doubles Kobes way.................most likely the 1 postion,leaving Parker/Sasha......
Kobe can handle doubles half the time easy,make them pay with passing out of them and when it's single coverage it's as easy as Cake for Kobe.just has to pick his spots........because of Cook Kobes game will now become much easier,and in turn Cook too will prosper,they need to be on the court at the same time most of the time.....This is what was needed,a guy that could score if left open.......I expect Cook to get 14 to 20 on any given night with this formula......While Kobe can still get his with the extra space due to Cook being a threat if left un-guarded.....
With Cook being an OK rebounder,we can still get by because Lamar boards real well,and we still have Mihm and Kwame at center...... |
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mike_dee23 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 11703
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Heck... just thinking about it, put out Sasha, Smush, Kobe, Cook and Mihm... surround the dude with shooters - even though Sasha needs to just shoot the ball sometimes... let Sasha be the initiator. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58428
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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To me, Cook needs to become a better rebounder.
He just needs to play harder on defense. Yes he is a bad defender. No arguments there.
But he has two assets. One - is that he clearly has a brain. Anyone that takes a charge well knows how to read an offense. Second - He has good length. Meaning that if he works on his timing and strength he can be a better shotblocker and rebounder.
So while I don't see Cook ever to be a good defender, I think there's a chance that he can give a team more positive than negative if he can push up those rebounding and shotblocking numbers (8 boards, 1.5 blocks would be what I'm looking for) |
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Hector the Pup Retired Number
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 35946 Location: L.A.
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Cook doesn't stand a chance of getting anywhere near 8rpg and 1.5 bpg. |
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Showtime_Returns Star Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1730 Location: Somewhere looking for a magic wand
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Put Cook in the starting lineup and any coach with a pulse will exploit his weaknesses. Cook isn't starting material, but he does blow away the no one can play with Kobe argument. Kobe needs a 2nd option that can feed off him ala Cook. Trading Odom for R Lewis would net us that 2nd option. |
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dewit8 Sixth Man
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 28
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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THe problem PageDude, is that the rebounding stat really means nothing. That's all based on games played. Some of the games he only played for 3 minutes. Plus, Kwame and Odom need to rebound their ass off, bcause that's their greatest value to the team. And as for the negative plus/minus-- who the hell cares? Last year, 82games.com ranked the players based on how many points the team scored with that player on the court. Kobe Bryant not in the top 50. Brian Cook-- 25th overall. Did that make Cook more valuable? Hell no! But you saw what he's done WITHOUT battling Mihm for the boards. And people overlook the fact he gets at least two offensive rebounds a game. As far as defense goes, if Phil puts Cook on KG or J. O'Neal, that's his fault for being so dumb. Odom or Mihm should guard them, with Cook guarding Blount (Minn) or Croshere (Ind). |
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ThePageDude Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 2625
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Last year, 82games.com ranked the players based on how many points the team scored with that player on the court. Kobe Bryant not in the top 50. Brian Cook-- 25th overall. |
OK this is a good counter, plus-minus isn't conclusive, it mixes in too many other variables. I dont have a good stat to prove my point, all I can say is that guard penetration kills us a lot. And this happens when Mihm takes a break, *regardless* of whether Kwame or Cook is on the floor. However, Kwame is a good man-defender, so he makes up for this weakness by matching up well against the Yao Mings, the Duncans. Cook is neither strong, nor quick, so he's only able to defend PFs who're like him- J. Howard, Nowitzki.
dewit8 wrote: | THe problem PageDude, is that the rebounding stat really means nothing. That's all based on games played. Some of the games he only played for 3 minutes. <snip>
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This is wrong on so many fronts !!!
So you're saying forget about any rebounding stats, they dont mean anything!!! And fall back on what, just your opinion that he is actually a good rebounder? Well, great, by that token I think Keith Van Horn is a better rebounder - prove it otherwise, hey its my word against yours, stats are useless ...
The fact is that the rebounding stat I quoted does mean something. The players everyone accepts as good rebounders, show up with higher rebounding numbers (Duncan, Garnett etc.). Amazing how that works. Griffin, Sweetney, McDyess, even though they play about the same minutes as Cook, have good rebounding stats, and guess what, I've watched their games, and the difference between them and Cook rebounding-wise is abundantly clear. Al Jefferson of Boston averages about 18mpg. Like Cook, some games he plays only 3 minutes. He rebounds at a 50% higher rate than Cook. And I have watched him play, he is a *way* better rebounder than Cook.
dewit8 wrote: | Plus, Kwame and Odom need to rebound their ass off, bcause that's their greatest value to the team. |
So you're arguing that Kwame/Odom are *taking away* rebounds from Cook, so thats why his rebounding numbers are low???????????????
Come on, thats a reach ...
-ThePageDude |
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shnjb Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Oct 2002 Posts: 13320
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | To me, Cook needs to become a better rebounder.
He just needs to play harder on defense. Yes he is a bad defender. No arguments there.
But he has two assets. One - is that he clearly has a brain. Anyone that takes a charge well knows how to read an offense. Second - He has good length. Meaning that if he works on his timing and strength he can be a better shotblocker and rebounder.
So while I don't see Cook ever to be a good defender, I think there's a chance that he can give a team more positive than negative if he can push up those rebounding and shotblocking numbers (8 boards, 1.5 blocks would be what I'm looking for) |
I'm also looking for Odom to score 20 points per game.
Also looking out for Kwame to get about 15 and 10.
Sasha should be good enough to knock down about 3 threes a game and Luke should be good for 6 assists off the bench.
Smush has also shown the ability to get 20+ points so I think he can get us 15 ppg.
But seriously, you really think Cook has even 0.05% chance of getting 8 rebounds and 1.5 blocks a game for half a season, let alone a full season?
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shnjb Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Oct 2002 Posts: 13320
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: |
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I also noticed other gems from your post.
Brian Cook, no matter how hard he works on timing and strength, cannot be a 8 rpg and 1.5 bpg guy in the NBA.
Maybe in the NCAA, but not in the NBA.
You know, usually, in the NBA, only very athletic players can average close to 1.5 bpg, unless they are seven footers with long arms.
Our best hope is that Cook will box out more and play smart on defense to minimize his deficiencies, but to ask or even IMAGAINE Cook of being a shotblocker/rebounder extraordinaire is a fantasy.
In fact, 8 rpg and 1.5 bpg would be satisfactory numbers from a very good starter-quality PF.
That's young Horace Grant type numbers really, who has been voted on the NBA defensive teams in the past. |
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CrimsonLaker Star Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 2268
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Cook is a defensive liability, but is still better than Smush defensively. When Mihm comes back, I want Kwame still starting. We had a nice groove with that starting lineup. When cook was coming off the bench he had a couple nice games going 5-5 or 7-7. One of the main problems we have is not having someone to score when the bench is out there. I'd like to see Cook anchor our bench and that is just as important as a starting role imo. He can be our 6th man. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58428
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:16 am Post subject: |
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shnjb wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | To me, Cook needs to become a better rebounder.
He just needs to play harder on defense. Yes he is a bad defender. No arguments there.
But he has two assets. One - is that he clearly has a brain. Anyone that takes a charge well knows how to read an offense. Second - He has good length. Meaning that if he works on his timing and strength he can be a better shotblocker and rebounder.
So while I don't see Cook ever to be a good defender, I think there's a chance that he can give a team more positive than negative if he can push up those rebounding and shotblocking numbers (8 boards, 1.5 blocks would be what I'm looking for) |
I'm also looking for Odom to score 20 points per game.
Also looking out for Kwame to get about 15 and 10.
Sasha should be good enough to knock down about 3 threes a game and Luke should be good for 6 assists off the bench.
Smush has also shown the ability to get 20+ points so I think he can get us 15 ppg.
But seriously, you really think Cook has even 0.05% chance of getting 8 rebounds and 1.5 blocks a game for half a season, let alone a full season?
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Did you read the first few lines, shjnb?
Quote: | Yes he is a bad defender. No arguments there. |
However, I don't think he is a bad defender because he doesn't have the ability to play defense.
The reason is that he chooses to be an offense only guy. If he puts his mind on to be a defender, he can become better.
Look at Vujacic. He went from a pathetic defender in his rookie season, to a guy that actually is more valuable on defense than offense. No, I'm not saying Vujacic is a great halfcourt defender - he isn't - but his fullcourt pressure has helped the Lakers numerous times this season. He's only hit maybe 4 or 5 3's that really were important. But his defensive pressure has been there in more games than none.
50% of defense is effort. Cook needs to atleast do the effort part completely. |
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