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OmegaCues Starting Rotation
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 574
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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I just don't see Gooden getting too many minutes under Phil. From the few games that I have seen him, he is weak defensively. I would give Cook, Slava and Miami's 1st. That's the most. |
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magic_bryant Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 18179
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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OmegaCues wrote: | I just don't see Gooden getting too many minutes under Phil. From the few games that I have seen him, he is weak defensively. I would give Cook, Slava and Miami's 1st. That's the most. |
I'd give up DG, Slava, and Miami's 1st. _________________ Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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And 1 Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 2586
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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magic_bryant wrote: | And 1 wrote: | KobeFTW wrote: | magic_bryant wrote: | Gooden is as undersized at PF as Lamar is. In fact, Lamar is a better man defender at the 4 than Gooden. He's a SF in a PF body, like Lamar, only he doesn't have the strength to guard opposing 4s, or the handles to play the 3.
And Logo drafted him 3rd!!! What a waste. |
gooden has a kwame like body, wat you talking about. |
Gooden's body, in no way, shape, or form, resembles that of Kwame.
As for the remark about Gooden being a SF trapped in a PF's body, his offensive work in the low post might lead to a different conclusion.
Defensively, he has issues. |
LO has postup ability. Doesn't make him a 4 by any stretch of the imagination though. Gooden doesn't really "post up" anyhow. He catches the ball in the post, sure. But once he has it there, he faces up and either shoots or makes a quick dribble move to the basket. |
Lamar having post-up "ability" is of little consequence when: A) he rarely posts up; and, B) can't finish the lay-up when he does post-up. When was the last time you caught yourself saying [I]Damn. LO just dominated in the low post tonight (or for even a quarter).
As for your opinion that Gooden "doesn't really post up," I think that you misinterpret the fact that he just so happens to have face-up ability that he's not a low post player. You have to remember that Z occupies the lane for Cleveland. Gooden has been forced to adapt. But check his history - Gooden is a low-post player to be sure.
Quote: | But I do agree with you on the "inconsistency" issues. He's a consistent player, just doesn't consistent opportunities. However, he plays worse D at the 4 than LO. So yeah, he'll score 15-20 points some nights, but give up 20+ NIGHTLY. |
I think you're going a little overboard here. Neither Lamar or Gooden play good defense at PF. I don't know where you derive the opinion that Gooden would "give up 20+ NIGHTLY," though. You certainly didn't arrive at it from any statistical analysis. |
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magic_bryant Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 18179
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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And 1 wrote: | magic_bryant wrote: | And 1 wrote: | KobeFTW wrote: | magic_bryant wrote: | Gooden is as undersized at PF as Lamar is. In fact, Lamar is a better man defender at the 4 than Gooden. He's a SF in a PF body, like Lamar, only he doesn't have the strength to guard opposing 4s, or the handles to play the 3.
And Logo drafted him 3rd!!! What a waste. |
gooden has a kwame like body, wat you talking about. |
Gooden's body, in no way, shape, or form, resembles that of Kwame.
As for the remark about Gooden being a SF trapped in a PF's body, his offensive work in the low post might lead to a different conclusion.
Defensively, he has issues. |
LO has postup ability. Doesn't make him a 4 by any stretch of the imagination though. Gooden doesn't really "post up" anyhow. He catches the ball in the post, sure. But once he has it there, he faces up and either shoots or makes a quick dribble move to the basket. |
Lamar having post-up "ability" is of little consequence when: A) he rarely posts up; and, B) can't finish the lay-up when he does post-up. When was the last time you caught yourself saying [I]Damn. LO just dominated in the low post tonight (or for even a quarter).
As for your opinion that Gooden "doesn't really post up," I think that you misinterpret the fact that he just so happens to have face-up ability that he's not a low post player. You have to remember that Z occupies the lane for Cleveland. Gooden has been forced to adapt. But check his history - Gooden is a low-post player to be sure.
Quote: | But I do agree with you on the "inconsistency" issues. He's a consistent player, just doesn't consistent opportunities. However, he plays worse D at the 4 than LO. So yeah, he'll score 15-20 points some nights, but give up 20+ NIGHTLY. |
I think you're going a little overboard here. Neither Lamar or Gooden play good defense at PF. I don't know where you derive the opinion that Gooden would "give up 20+ NIGHTLY," though. You certainly didn't arrive at it from any statistical analysis. |
He doesn't play D. Simple as that. LO is a better defender at the 4 because he A) tries hard, B) gets his hands up on shots and C) is simply a SMARTER defender.
No, the "20+" thing isn't a stat I can show you. But he would give up that much nightly. Go watch his Orlando days when he didn't have Big Z backing him. _________________ Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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magic_bryant Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 18179
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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And I wasn't saying that Gooden doesn't have that ability to post up, just that he won't. In his Orlando days, he was more of a face up player as well. He simply isn't tall enough to score with his back to basket against most 4s in the West Conference. _________________ Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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And 1 Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 2586
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Ank wrote: | lakeshow03 wrote: | whats his contract? |
This is the important question. If we can trade Kwame + Miami for Gooden, and still keep top the 2007 plan, I'm down. Other trades imvolving ending contracts: George + Slava etc. or Cook+George+1 are all fine too.
Give up Smush? Well, I would make that trade too, because I think Smush is replaceable, but we would definatly have to make another trade for a PG.
The crucial question again tho is contract. He must expire in 2007 or be very cheap. |
With regards to Gooden's contract, I'm unsure if 2007 is even the issue. I think that he'll be a RFA at the end of this season. Someone is likely to overpay (see Houston & Stromile Swift) and the Lakers won't match. Unless he really liked living and playing in L.A., he could be gone by this off-season.
Might be worth it if you thought he would represent the "final piece" to the puzzle. But he ain't, so I'm unsure what you would do about this. |
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And 1 Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 2586
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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magic_bryant wrote: | And 1 wrote: | magic_bryant wrote: | And 1 wrote: | KobeFTW wrote: | magic_bryant wrote: | Gooden is as undersized at PF as Lamar is. In fact, Lamar is a better man defender at the 4 than Gooden. He's a SF in a PF body, like Lamar, only he doesn't have the strength to guard opposing 4s, or the handles to play the 3.
And Logo drafted him 3rd!!! What a waste. |
gooden has a kwame like body, wat you talking about. |
Gooden's body, in no way, shape, or form, resembles that of Kwame.
As for the remark about Gooden being a SF trapped in a PF's body, his offensive work in the low post might lead to a different conclusion.
Defensively, he has issues. |
LO has postup ability. Doesn't make him a 4 by any stretch of the imagination though. Gooden doesn't really "post up" anyhow. He catches the ball in the post, sure. But once he has it there, he faces up and either shoots or makes a quick dribble move to the basket. |
Lamar having post-up "ability" is of little consequence when: A) he rarely posts up; and, B) can't finish the lay-up when he does post-up. When was the last time you caught yourself saying [I]Damn. LO just dominated in the low post tonight (or for even a quarter).
As for your opinion that Gooden "doesn't really post up," I think that you misinterpret the fact that he just so happens to have face-up ability that he's not a low post player. You have to remember that Z occupies the lane for Cleveland. Gooden has been forced to adapt. But check his history - Gooden is a low-post player to be sure.
Quote: | But I do agree with you on the "inconsistency" issues. He's a consistent player, just doesn't consistent opportunities. However, he plays worse D at the 4 than LO. So yeah, he'll score 15-20 points some nights, but give up 20+ NIGHTLY. |
I think you're going a little overboard here. Neither Lamar or Gooden play good defense at PF. I don't know where you derive the opinion that Gooden would "give up 20+ NIGHTLY," though. You certainly didn't arrive at it from any statistical analysis. |
He doesn't play D. Simple as that. LO is a better defender at the 4 because he A) tries hard, B) gets his hands up on shots and C) is simply a SMARTER defender.
No, the "20+" thing isn't a stat I can show you. But he would give up that much nightly. Go watch his Orlando days when he didn't have Big Z backing him. |
Hey, I'm sure you made a great argument. But to be honest, I couldn't finish reading your post because I was laughing so hard when you managed to mix in the word "smart" (in BOLD I might add) in a sentence with Lamar's name. A sentence that didn't include a negative like Lamar is NOT a smart player or My dog is smarter than Lamar.That was better than any of those $2 million Super Bowl commercials I saw yesterday. |
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magic_bryant Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 18179
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Ok LO hater. _________________ Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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fansincemagic Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 11100
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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He looks like another version of Boozer statistically and physically, but he has been looked at as soft. To be honest I'd take Kwame's tough post play and bad hands over Gooden's stats. Gooden is a better player at this stage, but the Lakers need a physical big guy more.
It is sad when this scenario is counting on a rookie counting off open heart surgery playing solid NBA minutes (25mpg), but if he is platooned with Gooden it may work. I was thinking of a deal where Mihm would go back to Cleveland and you could snake Gooden and Aleksandar Pavlovic, and IF Pavlovic proves quick enough to play the point, maybe that looks better on paper. I pick Mihm, because I don't mind the idea of an Odom/Gooden/Kwame frontcourt, and Turiaf/Cook/Bynum as solid backup bigmen. I know Mihm's hookshot is looking better, but I like Gooden's knack for having solid double double games, as well as offensive rebounding. If Cleveland is so hard up for a PG...what about lowballing them with this....
George and Smush or Sasha
for
Gooden and Pavlovic
Call me crazy if Pavlovic doesn't work for Phil as a solid PG in his system. |
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Krispy Kreme Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2003 Posts: 12252
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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i dont want gooden. but the sad thing is, he is better than kwame |
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teej Starting Rotation
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 222
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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On offense he is, but defensively, Gooden is too skinny to body up post players. |
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tgf5 Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Posts: 11581 Location: Canada
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Gooden is not the answer to our problems. He is not a very good man defender. |
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Ank Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 1043 Location: New York, NY
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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And 1 wrote: | Ank wrote: | lakeshow03 wrote: | whats his contract? |
This is the important question. If we can trade Kwame + Miami for Gooden, and still keep top the 2007 plan, I'm down. Other trades imvolving ending contracts: George + Slava etc. or Cook+George+1 are all fine too.
Give up Smush? Well, I would make that trade too, because I think Smush is replaceable, but we would definatly have to make another trade for a PG.
The crucial question again tho is contract. He must expire in 2007 or be very cheap. |
With regards to Gooden's contract, I'm unsure if 2007 is even the issue. I think that he'll be a RFA at the end of this season. Someone is likely to overpay (see Houston & Stromile Swift) and the Lakers won't match. Unless he really liked living and playing in L.A., he could be gone by this off-season.
Might be worth it if you thought he would represent the "final piece" to the puzzle. But he ain't, so I'm unsure what you would do about this. |
I would do it then, for George and Slava etc. If he plays very well, then we'll have to make a decsion. I don't know exactly how much cap space we have in 2007 with Odom, Kobe & Bynum. If its more than a max contract, and the difference is 5mil, offer him a 5mil long-term. Otherwise, we're probably screwed, but we can do a sign and trade for someone like Mike James. More talent always is better. |
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