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WestwoodOne Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 321
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: Re: LAKERS -at- CELTICS - 6/10 - Thoughts and :-(( Ratings |
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My reollection of the final play of the 1st quarter was that Farmar switched to cut off Pierce off the pick and roll, forcing Pierce to reverse the ball back to Robinson who just set the pick on Artest (or Brown). It was Artest (or Brown) who made the mistake of trailing Pierce and leaving Robinson open for the three at the buzzer. Can you verify this, DB?
Last edited by WestwoodOne on Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Klone_dd Star Player
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 7330
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunate that the Lakers had control of the game and really could've opened it up mid-3rd. KG, Ray & Rondo were very tentative and forcing stuff, looked like they were ready to pack it in. They effectively shut out Drama Queen on their own. The Lakers, however, couldn't take advantage, going scoreless themselves during the same period.
And then the 4th.
LO was way too passive and got absolutely worked. Kobe was gassed and Pau allowed himself to be bodied up and out. Add in the TOs, and lack of rebounding and we just let the Celts back in the series.
Wish Phil would use DJ against the Celts 2nd unit with Pau. Can't use DJ vs the 1st unit because they'll sluff off him and load up one side of the floor, but against the 2nd unit, his job would be to neutralize Baby with his size and strength. Hate to say it, but the fat guy has been a factor the last 2 games.
Well, no one said it would be easy. It would be impressive to come back to LA up 3-2. |
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Conker Franchise Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2010 Posts: 13056 Location: MDC
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the insight.
The 4th Qtr. sure did hurt us. Lamar Odom just played terrible. |
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Vadorojo Star Player
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 1507
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:12 am Post subject: |
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I'm terrified at the thought that our championship hopes rest on Andrew Bynum's knee ... c'mon Lake Show ... _________________ "I like looking at a guy's face when he realizes that even his best moves aren't going to work on me all night. They look depressed." - Ron Artest |
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Rodman28 Star Player
Joined: 21 Dec 2009 Posts: 5502
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Vadorojo wrote: | I'm terrified at the thought that our championship hopes rest on Andrew Bynum's knee ... c'mon Lake Show ... |
...his knee and Bynum's consistantcy. _________________ *On Thin Ice*
I guess I am kind of injury prone.- Andrew Bynum
These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess.- Kobe Bryant |
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ElginWorthy Starting Rotation
Joined: 16 Jun 2001 Posts: 348
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:45 am Post subject: |
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I think the Boston series points to a serious problem the Lakers have failed to address for years.
They need some real bangers at power forward and center. They need to have bench players the coach is NOT afraid to use.
What good is a backup center or forward if you never see them?
Through the draft and/or free agency, the Lakers desperately need to find bigs who are wide-bodies, strong, tough space-eaters and can D-up and rebound. They don't need to score, necessarily. They just need to be able to make it tough to go up the gut of the defense.
While I do agree the Lakers also need help in the back court, I think the Boston series, yet again, is showing the real weakness of this team.
The Lakers need their own version of Big Baby Davis, etc. Pau is a great offensive player but he is simply not big enough to go up against wide-bodies. The Lakers need to have that flexibility. Bring the beef off the bench.
That should be THE priority this offseason. |
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JTS1 Star Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2008 Posts: 5101
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:59 am Post subject: |
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ElginWorthy wrote: | I think the Boston series points to a serious problem the Lakers have failed to address for years.
They need some real bangers at power forward and center. They need to have bench players the coach is NOT afraid to use.
What good is a backup center or forward if you never see them?
Through the draft and/or free agency, the Lakers desperately need to find bigs who are wide-bodies, strong, tough space-eaters and can D-up and rebound. They don't need to score, necessarily. They just need to be able to make it tough to go up the gut of the defense.
While I do agree the Lakers also need help in the back court, I think the Boston series, yet again, is showing the real weakness of this team.
The Lakers need their own version of Big Baby Davis, etc. Pau is a great offensive player but he is simply not big enough to go up against wide-bodies. The Lakers need to have that flexibility. Bring the beef off the bench.
That should be THE priority this offseason. |
they still need a guard who can run the offense. kobe is really the only guard who can get the ball to our bigs.
but you are right about the lakers not having a 'big baby'-type. phil is being short-sighted w/dj. he can at least use his six fouls. i wouldn't have minded seeing robinson's littl a$$ slapped into the court. _________________ 'How many kids can say growing up that they'll turn pro and play for their favorite team in the world and spend your entire career there? IT'S BEEN A DREAM!'-Kobe Bryant 11.29.15 |
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DancingBarry Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001 Posts: 40222 Location: O.C.
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Rick12322 wrote: |
Why is it that our offense always runs smoother in the first half? It's like they had a bunch of plays to burn, and when the second half comes they don't have anymore. This is trend I've noticed about this team.
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I thought they had a good tempo in the first half. They weren't walking the ball up court, they were getting into their offense quickly. This allowed them more time to cycle through the Tri.
We start walking the ball up court, slowing things down in the second half. This means guys start going iso a lot more with the shotclock low. I think our bigs stand around too much instead of relentlessly going after the boards. Their motor isn't there. Drew helps change that aspect...but Pau and LO just have to man up now. |
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DancingBarry Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001 Posts: 40222 Location: O.C.
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: LAKERS -at- CELTICS - 6/10 - Thoughts and :-(( Ratings |
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WestwoodOne wrote: | My reollection of the final play of the 1st quarter was that Farmar switched to cut off Pierce off the pick and roll, forcing Pierce to reverse the ball back to Robinson who just set the pick on Artest (or Brown). It was Artest (or Brown) who made the mistake of trailing Pierce and leaving Robinson open for the three at the buzzer. Can you verify this, DB? |
There was definite confusion on the switch...or whether they were supposed to switch and the help/recovery came way too late, leaving him open. They got their wires crossed. I'll have to go back and look, either way that's the worst kind of a look for us to give Nate on his first attempt. |
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DancingBarry Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001 Posts: 40222 Location: O.C.
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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lakergal16 wrote: | The turnovers did kill us, but Kobe was also the only one to show up and keep us in the game.
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Yeah, I commented during the game that it felt like the only way were winning this was if Kobe went insane. No one looked like they could hang with the Celtics. |
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Sister Golden Hair Franchise Player
Joined: 01 May 2001 Posts: 15872
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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DancingBarry wrote: | Rick12322 wrote: |
Why is it that our offense always runs smoother in the first half? It's like they had a bunch of plays to burn, and when the second half comes they don't have anymore. This is trend I've noticed about this team.
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I thought they had a good tempo in the first half. They weren't walking the ball up court, they were getting into their offense quickly. This allowed them more time to cycle through the Tri.
We start walking the ball up court, slowing things down in the second half. This means guys start going iso a lot more with the shotclock low. I think our bigs stand around too much instead of relentlessly going after the boards. Their motor isn't there. Drew helps change that aspect...but Pau and LO just have to man up now. |
LO is the biggest culprit. His default speed is literaly a walk -- a slow walk. It's maddening because during the relatively long stretch of time it takes for him to get up court and into position to initiate, Boston has already found their assigned man, and has dug in. It is maddening.
I would think the coaches would tell LO not to do that because it both helps put the lakers to sleep, and it literally gives Boston's D a chance to get short respites in the action, and allows them to dig in and not have to move their feet. Having the offense bog down and making Kobe try to bail you out is literally what Boston's D is designed to do. It allows them maximum result from minimal exertion because they don't have to move their feet for the enire position. They just overplay the passing lanes vbecause the ball hasn't been moving to begin with.
BTW, that's another pet peeve of mine: why are the lakers so lax with their passing? Their passes often have no zip to them (allowing defenders to get a lot of deflections and steals, and they may be the worst team in the league at utilizing ball fakes. In fact, I think Jordan Farmar mat be thw orst PG in the league at doing this. Kobe has also been suspiciously lax at passing the ball properly.
Sasha is much better than Odom at bringing the ball up and initiating as far as timing is concerned. LO literally shortens the game for his team. But you want Boston to have to move for 48 minutes -- you want it feel like a long game where they are constantly having to catch up to the ball.
LO neutralizes all of that with his play, his lack of focus, and his overall sleepy demeanor and lack of purposefulness.
Yeah, I'm still PO'd about what I saw from him last night.
SGH |
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RCS926 Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2003 Posts: 16824
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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^^^
LO walking the ball up has been an issue all series long. I can't believe that Phil and the coaching staff haven't identified this as an issue yet. Then again, it seems like Phil hasn't really done anything to fix LA's offensive woes in the 2nd half. |
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Fleur-de-Lis Star Player
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 Posts: 8383 Location: La Cité des Anges
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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^ Just look at his body language. He drags himself on the floor, looking completely lazy and confused. Why is he bringing up the ball up the floor anyway? He's terrible, just dribbles around and wastes half the shot clock and Boston just has to play about 10sec of defense ending up in a terrible shot for the Lakers every time. I don't know how Kobe puts up with this clown.
Lazy (bleep). _________________ Winning recipe: Effort, Intensity, Focus, Composure, Patience, Execution, Attention to detail, Discipline & Persistence |
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DancingBarry Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001 Posts: 40222 Location: O.C.
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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He's bringing the ball up because we don't want Fish to do that against Rondo's pressure as much or Kobe to do it as much because of wear. And, obviously, not Ron.
LO gets no pressure...which is good. But initiating the offense 4 or 5 seconds later than it should is causing a lot of problems. Things were much more fluid when Kobe was pushing it up court in the first half and the first passes were made with around 19 seconds on the clock. After we cycle through our first options we have 10-13 seconds instead of 5-8...that's when we often default into iso ball out of necessity.
Need to start his butt up court. |
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PopcornMachine Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2001 Posts: 10566
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Last game is was Pau as the scapegoat, even though they won, and this time it's Lamar.
Yeah, he didn't get a single board in the 4th. Not good. Can definitely play better than that, and I know he can rebound with the best of them. So I take as a sign the that the Lakers have no where to go but up.
Big effort from them in game 5. Of course, that will be easier if Andrew can make a game 1-3 type effort. _________________
I'm with COCO!
Last edited by PopcornMachine on Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Luca Brasi Star Player
Joined: 11 Jun 2005 Posts: 4207
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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^ who won game 5? please tell us the lakers won. _________________ "i was born down in the valley where the sun refused to shine, but i'm climbin' up to the highlands, goin' to make that mountain mine" ~ Lakers, 2011 |
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PopcornMachine Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2001 Posts: 10566
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Luca Brasi wrote: | ^ who won game 5? please tell us the lakers won. |
Lakers won of course.
Thanks for the heads up man! _________________
I'm with COCO! |
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ssiknick833 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Posts: 13890 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Rodman28 wrote: | Vadorojo wrote: | I'm terrified at the thought that our championship hopes rest on Andrew Bynum's knee ... c'mon Lake Show ... |
...his knee and LO's consistency. |
Fixed. _________________
akola wrote: | KILL BILL Artest.
R.I.P. wheelchair |
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67ShelbyGT Star Player
Joined: 11 May 2008 Posts: 4048
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Addicus wrote: | Doc figured out what Gentry did. The Lakers top 6 will beat your top 6 no matter what you do, but if you can run a disciplined next 5 you can beat them. |
Bingo!
Dude, I have this argument with so many idiots at work who are the same fair-weather bball fans blame 2008 on either Kobe not being MJ or starting Bigs playing soft. I have said this before and will again... our bench lost us the series in 2008. And its cost us at least 2 maybe 3 wins so far in the post-season. Thats not counting all the R/S games where our starters couldve rested had we had adequate Bench.
Problem is, our bench does not have experience vets. We need experience bigs in the PJ Brown mold. Also, I think a move to bench for Fish wont be so bad. We need a vet guard too on the bench. We need a defender with a jumper at the starting 1. I look back to our 2000 Finals team, we had Fish, BShaw, Horry, Fox coming off the bench. Now we got Farmar, Shannon, Sasha, Luke and Lamar. Enough said. _________________ Alltime lineup: Magic | Kobe | MJ | Hakeem | KAJ |
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A Mad Chinaman Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 6184
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:17 am Post subject: |
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davidse wrote: | if this trend continues - the celtics getting good looks, and us getting bad ones - might as well give the team to shaw right now, because whoever's coaching us isn't helping and is only riding the greatness of our individual talents. | Uh, this is because of Phil?!?! Artest dribbling the ball for 10 seconds, LO falling asleep at the 3pt line, Jordan getting schooled by Robinson, Pau is getting his rebounds knocked out of his hands and LO is manhandled by a 6'5" PF is Phil's fault?
Phil was hired to win a series, not every game. Maybe he didn't want Bynum to play extensively because he was injured while trying to save him for Game 5. This should have provided ample opportunities for LO to show up since he played 39 minutes.
Hey, there is a reason why Phil has gone to the Finals 13 times out of 20 years |
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davidse Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2005 Posts: 14302
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:26 am Post subject: |
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A Mad Chinaman wrote: | davidse wrote: | if this trend continues - the celtics getting good looks, and us getting bad ones - might as well give the team to shaw right now, because whoever's coaching us isn't helping and is only riding the greatness of our individual talents. | Uh, this is because of Phil?!?! Artest dribbling the ball for 10 seconds, LO falling asleep at the 3pt line, Jordan getting schooled by Robinson, Pau is getting his rebounds knocked out of his hands and LO is manhandled by a 6'5" PF is Phil's fault?
Phil was hired to win a series, not every game. Maybe he didn't want Bynum to play extensively because he was injured while trying to save him for Game 5. This should have provided ample opportunities for LO to show up since he played 39 minutes.
Hey, there is a reason why Phil has gone to the Finals 13 times out of 20 years |
so ?
and rudy t won two championships - did that mean everything he did for our team was right ?
let me know what's the "achievement theshold" for coahces or anybody else that means that there's no way they're screwing up now, because they did great before...
just because you're fooling yourself to believe that wins = great coaching, doesn't change the fact that everything i've said relates not only to game 4, but also to game 3 which we WON. (in fact, that's when i started critisizing phil. losing game 2 is acceptable providing you're able to make adjustments - and phil didn't).
boston still got the better looks, we were still unable to figure out their defense, and the only reason we won was one of our individual players having the quarter of his life, taking shots that no one - including phil - would ever want him to take (untill they went in...).
go ahead and call it great coaching.
i'd rather face reality.
as far as coaching is concerned, we should be down 3-1 right now, heading into a close out game for boston. |
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A Mad Chinaman Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 6184
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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Let's see, you are comparing somebody who won two championship to somebody who has gone to the Finals 13 times in 20 years while judging him before the end of the series? One wonders who you would rather have coaching to win a ring? (Larry Brown - no ring, BScott - no ring, Pop - didn't go deep into the playoffs, Brown - got fired, Stan Van Gundy - didn't get back to the Finals, Doc - he will lose this year's Finals, Coach K - doesn't want to coach in the NBA, Izzo - will he even be a winning coach, Rambis - great guy, etc.)
Everyone has the right to criticize Phil, since it comes with the job. Phil dares to be great while risking to fail. Phil is not perfect and (obvioiusly) won't win all the game - but he was hired to win a ring.
Rings = Great Coaching.
Phil did make adjustments.
As the axiom goes, there is a reason why certain players get good looks, just like there is a reason why Artest get better looks than Kobe. There is a reason why Rondo will bet open jump shots, why LO will get open outside shot, why KG will get open outside shot because they don't want him to drive to the hole, etc. If one reviews the team's shooting percentage, one will get a better gauge of success. This is the reality.
In Game 4, the Lakers played poorly - yet still had a chance to win the game. Phil has LO, who basically has been MIA, allowing Boston's bigs gang up on Pau. Phil provided LO the opportunity to step up that provides him the ability to try other alternatives. Phil basically severly limit Drew's minutes to get LO in sync while also giving Drew more rest to get ready for Game 5.
Do you thiink that Phil want the following to happen:
* ball not be passed into the post
* players just watch Kobe do his thing
* double on Perkins while leaving a red-hot Ray Allen free
* Artest dribble the ball for 10 seconds
* LO scared of Baby
* Celtics constantly knocking the ball out of LO/Pau's hands
* Farmar inability to stay in front of Robinson
It is noteworthy that only one of Boston's "Big Three" has been successful per each past game., It will be interesting to note your specific things that Phil didn't adjust to - noting that he is at the mercy of the players to follow Phil's instructions.
Can Phil do better, of course. Can Doc to better, of course. Phil was brought in to win the war, not every battle. Your views are understandable, especially if you think/expect the Lakers to win every playoff game in a rout. I don't share your "reality" and trust Phil to make the right decision to win the series.
Lakers will win Game 5 |
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davidse Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2005 Posts: 14302
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:24 am Post subject: |
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do you not read, or just dont' get what you're reading ?
what does winning the game have to do with anything ?
my critisizm was after game 3, not 4.
game 4 was simply a direct continuation of what has been going on in games 2 and 3.
how blind are you that you're willing to list YOURSELF so many things that are wrong with what our players are doing without realizing it's the COACH'S job to make sure those things doesn't happen ?
- especially at this time of the season ???
whether it's those individual actions, or general team play - where our opponents get good looks offensively, and we can't do the same - it all comes back to coaching.
nothing you've said has shown any good coaching or adjustments by phil so far.
by all means - list the proof you see on the floor of this being a well coached team........
(because you haven't listed a single thing other than the fact we "won" games, as if fisher taking those shots was something phil wanted, etc)
this looks like a team who's coach barely has any controll over it, and if he does - that's even worse because they're playing dumb basketball, being outmatched in terms of being able to get what they want offensively, and a large percentage of our offensive success has to do with miracle shots - where boston barely has any of those in the series - because the looks they're getting are actually GOOD LOOKS that come from discipline and offensive strategy.
- and i haven't even talked about the rotations and terrible use of the bench.
you are fooling yourself and playing ostrich.
you don't have a single basketball arguement that shows that this team is well coached.
and guess what - we are actually talented enough to be able to win despite this bad coaching. you're simply unable to look past this if and when it happens - automaticaly assuming that phil is doing a good job - without any evidence on the floor.
that's like saying that all of our players played well if we win the title - without actually looking and evaluating every individual performance. |
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NupeWD1993 Starting Rotation
Joined: 25 Jul 2009 Posts: 181 Location: Brooklyn, New York
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Personally speaking, if Drew is that hurt, I would start DJ as the 5 and allow Lamar to come off of the bench as he normally does....We have very little to bring in off of the bench as is......If they let Perkins bang, most likely, they will let DJ bang as well.... |
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bloxheads Rookie
Joined: 14 Jun 2010 Posts: 6
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Odom always ruins it for me, on a serious note |
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