PISTONS -at- LAKERS - 11/14 - Thoughts and :-(( Ratings
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DrHouse
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:44 am    Post subject:

For all those saying we got beat the same way we did against BOS last season please stop posting. That is so woefully inaccurate I don't know where to start.

First of all DET beat us from outside. They didn't live in our paint like BOS did and they didn't get many offensive rebounds like BOS did. Everything they hit was a jumpshot or three pointer, and they hit 50% of those shots. Defensively I think we did an OK job, clearly our defense on AI was poor but other than that I thought we did acceptable. Like I said before, they were hitting their shots....give them credit. Our defense is designed to give up the jumpshot before the layup, so it did what it was designed to do.

My only criticims were about our offense. Usually we get our offense going after a stagnant quarter or two, but we were stymied the entire game. And we were missing a lot of shots we normally make, DET's D was not that good guys. Fish and Kobe shot miserably and neither Bynum nor Pau were given enough touches down low.

The refs swallowed their whistles of course and let DET foul like crazy, of course any touch foul on us was immediately called. It's this kind of BS reffing that makes it hard for the Lakers to play the same way. We just don't get the calls, it's a joke.
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Shaber
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject:

Really bad coaching today by Phil - at leas in the first half.

AI was embarrasing Fish and since Fish could not make a shot either, Phil should have subbed in either Ariza or Sasha. Sasha perhaps could have stayed in front of AI, he seems to be getting his speed back. It all started right there - AI picking us apart and Fish not getting anywhere near to be stopping it.

And Phil needs to make our guards to start passing to the low post. There are way too few inside passes nowadays. Unless it is from Pau to Bynum or vice versa (put in Lamar there somewhere too). Or else Bynum needs to start demanding the ball like an angry big man. He was outpowering Detroits bigs, but he had too few touches to do a real damage.
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angrypuppy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:11 am    Post subject:

Mr. EiGhTy-OnE wrote:
BENCH VLAD, START ARIZA

i knew we obviously wouldnt go 82-0, but i was hoping maybe 41-0 at staples. i wouldnt have minded losing at the palace, but we have to protect our house. oh well




It's not that simple, in that Prince benefited from being deserted on offense. I would have preferred Ariza covering Iverson, and benching Fisher, as Fisher was a consummate disaster on defense. We really needed to stop that dribble penetration, and let defenders hang with their man out on the perimeter. If the defense didn't collapse, Prince wouldn't have had as many opportunties. Ditto with Rasheed, but that's also partially attributable to an inept defensive scheme.

Unfortunately, there is only one Ariza, and potentially two holes to plug on defense for any given night.


I realize our cap situation is tricky, but I still regret that the front office didn't (or couldn't) make a play for a two way combo guard like Delonte West.
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DancingBarry
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject:

AussieLakerFan wrote:

However, they were hindered in the 4th quarter by being pinged repeatedly for soft perimeter fouls. 15 fouls in total, in the penalty at the 7:13 mark. Allowed Detroit to shoot 26 free throws in the fourth quarter alone. Detroit only hit three field goals in the fourth quarter. Lakers hit 12 and only took 6 free throws.


That was a disaster. It wasn't the route of the problem, but they sure just spun their wheels for a whole quarter trying to make a comeback. Totally counterproductive. Sasha led the way there.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:26 pm    Post subject:

MedRomLaker wrote:

edit: quick Q db, where did the high-low action we saw in the preseaon go? I think that could have helped us loads seeing some of that pau drew action.


There's a couple simple ways the Lakers can usually develop this. One is initiated off the Kobe/Gasol two-man game. Pau needs to pop to one side and Kobe can draw his man, Pau can draw Bynum's man over and there you go. We've seen that a few times, but not much lately.

Another is initiated when Pau flashes from weak to strong off a weakside screen (typical Tri sequence). A good pick on Pau's man can draw Bynum's man. But if Bynum looks to seal his man as the pass is made to Pau, you can also go high-low there (you usually see that if they are in a fronting situation).

Whenever you can get Bynum's man to rotate to Pau you should have a mismatch underneath to go high-low.
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2The4th
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject:

I personally think Kobe should give up Kobe centered offense. Lakers should some how switch to Bynum centered offense.

I lost faith that Kobe base offense will bring Lakers a championship. Since future will be coming, might as well speed it up. Lakers' inside out game has been deteriorating ever since 3 peat period. I think it is a mistake.
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Sage_10
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject:

The thing that bugs me the most is that we were out muscled. Maxiel and Kwame out-muscled our front court at times and Rasheed was hot from the outside.

Kobe made terrible decisions (turnovers, and shot selection).

At the very least they fought til the end, that was uplifting for me to see.
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Phil
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:19 pm    Post subject:

Pistons surprised me. They may be back.
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10scott10
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:20 pm    Post subject:

I feel that both kobe's and fisher's stats arre rather skewed from the end of game chucking. they spent the last 5 minutes trying to chuck us back into the game. they managed to cut a 220 point lead in half, but it wasn't useful enough to get closer than that.

i was interested by the full court press they used, and while it did cause some turnovers, we were also called for a lot of fouls, though some of them were kinda BS.

overall, they I really felt that they needed to use pau and bynum earlier in the game.

however, i will say that prince was on fire and he was making shots while having a lot of length in his face. i remember one occasion where he shot and made a 15 footer with drew in his face

also, the pistons only made three field goals during the entire fourth quarter
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:56 pm    Post subject:

DB:

Thanks for the recap.

Questions:
What prevented from "funneling" AI to specific areas of the court wher eour bigs can defend the basket?

What type of "D" that the Lakers were playing, noting that in a recent L.A. Times column - Phil had shared that without Drew they were playing "the space" (of which I don't know what that means - help)?

Why wasn't - as Norm Nixon had shared during halftime - LO used more often on Rasheed, especially when he was on his 3pt binge?

I agree that they should have used Drew and Pau more often within the offense.
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Prometheus8
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:31 am    Post subject:

DB, usually we have a big advantage at center but it seems like a few very strong, very physical centers like Perkins, Dampier and Kwame can negate that advantage. Do you agree?

Also, do you think that as the year goes on and Drew elevates his offensive game that he will be more effective against big physical centers? Last season in January he was really coming out with some nice offensive moves.

Or will it take a few more years until Drew reaches full physical strength for that to happen?
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golakersgo121
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:09 am    Post subject:

Phil wrote:
Pistons surprised me. They may be back.


Nothing to be concerned with, Phil. They beat us from the outside. They won't be back - nothing on the inside, soft rebounding team and AI dominating the ball.

You don't expect Kwame to be a consistent 10 and 10 man, do you
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DancingBarry
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

What prevented from "funneling" AI to specific areas of the court wher eour bigs can defend the basket?


I think having to protect against both AI and Sheed from three stretched us. But the taking the brunt of the attack from the middle of the lane made it harder to funnel, as well. Prince was also at PF at times and played a perimeter oriented game. All of that conspired to pull us out of our comfort zones.

Quote:

What type of "D" that the Lakers were playing, noting that in a recent L.A. Times column - Phil had shared that without Drew they were playing "the space" (of which I don't know what that means - help)?

There was more of a priority to play guys straight up. To try to not give up penetration and keep them in front of you. Which meant you have to sag off a bit more because you were on an island. Now, we sitting more on their perimeter shot and letting them drive into the teeth of our help D if they want. So we are giving up certain lanes to the hoop and then aggressively trapping them.


Quote:

Why wasn't - as Norm Nixon had shared during halftime - LO used more often on Rasheed, especially when he was on his 3pt binge?


I think when they went small, LO had to guard Prince at PF, and a lot of that ocurred when the second units were matching up. But I don't really understand the whole LO usage of this game to begin with. He needed more minutes than that.
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DancingBarry
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject:

Prometheus8 wrote:
DB, usually we have a big advantage at center but it seems like a few very strong, very physical centers like Perkins, Dampier and Kwame can negate that advantage. Do you agree?


Yes. Bynum doesn't use his strength well. If he's got a guy in front of him on D and can focus on him he can hold them. No problem. If he's focussed on something else, like watching someone shoot, he seems to be moved around easily. Relies on his length too much in that area.

Offensively, he still hasn't learned to impose his strength. I'd like to see him kick the ball out and repost, back a man down without the ball while asking for it again. I think that's something he should be able to focus his strength on better at that end. He need to be more aggressively working his men under the hoop without the ball. That will help increase his touches, too.

Quote:

Also, do you think that as the year goes on and Drew elevates his offensive game that he will be more effective against big physical centers? Last season in January he was really coming out with some nice offensive moves.

Or will it take a few more years until Drew reaches full physical strength for that to happen?


A lot of the big strong centers aren't shotblockers, so I don't see why he can't play them much better. He went up against Kwame for a few years and is fully capable of playing against that kind of defender. I think guys like Oden who can recover and shotblock will probably give more trouble to Drew until he learns how to use his body better against them.

Perkins just never left Drew alone and kept him from getting those easy scores and then made his living when Drew had to leave him to help others. I think the Pau/Bynum duo may force Perkins to help more and free up Drew more, if we are smart about it. And defensively, our weakside is much smarter about helping Drew these days when he has to leave. So, he could end up more effective looking in that match up.
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:34 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
What prevented from "funneling" AI to specific areas of the court wher eour bigs can defend the basket?
I think having to protect against both AI and Sheed from three stretched us. But the taking the brunt of the attack from the middle of the lane made it harder to funnel, as well. Prince was also at PF at times and played a perimeter oriented game. All of that conspired to pull us out of our comfort zones.
Thanks DB. I think that (maybe) PJ was using this as part of a learning process. First - letting the team have an opportunity to figure out how to address this challenge. Second - the challenge provides added emphasis that they are the "Dream Team" while providing a more receptive attitude of learning what the coaching staff will be teaching them.

Question
Since DFish always have trouble with quick guards such as AI, CP3, etc. - do you think that either Ariza (length), Farmar (quickness) and/or Sasha (a troublesome pest) would be used to not allow AI free rein to go where he wants to go?

We agree that LO should have been used more against Sheed, though PJ might have wanted to have Pau a decent change to guard him, why didn't the Lakers just punished Sheed in the post (Pau or Drew) that would result in tiring him out and maybe "front-rimming" his 3point shots?

Do you think that Pau could have guarded him closer at the 3point line and/or at least have a hand in his face?
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10scott10
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:10 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
What prevented from "funneling" AI to specific areas of the court wher eour bigs can defend the basket?
I think having to protect against both AI and Sheed from three stretched us. But the taking the brunt of the attack from the middle of the lane made it harder to funnel, as well. Prince was also at PF at times and played a perimeter oriented game. All of that conspired to pull us out of our comfort zones.
Thanks DB. I think that (maybe) PJ was using this as part of a learning process. First - letting the team have an opportunity to figure out how to address this challenge. Second - the challenge provides added emphasis that they are the "Dream Team" while providing a more receptive attitude of learning what the coaching staff will be teaching them.

Question
Since DFish always have trouble with quick guards such as AI, CP3, etc. - do you think that either Ariza (length), Farmar (quickness) and/or Sasha (a troublesome pest) would be used to not allow AI free rein to go where he wants to go?

We agree that LO should have been used more against Sheed, though PJ might have wanted to have Pau a decent change to guard him, why didn't the Lakers just punished Sheed in the post (Pau or Drew) that would result in tiring him out and maybe "front-rimming" his 3point shots?

Do you think that Pau could have guarded him closer at the 3point line and/or at least have a hand in his face?

i think he could have. however, sheed did most of his outside damage when he was playing center. pau had to shade low as part of the scheme which left sheed open. if pau sticks with sheed, then we have no one back to protect the paint.
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oldschool32
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:28 am    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
SladeRider wrote:
I still stand by that I would of loved the Lakers to of signed Posey in the summer.


I wanted the Lakers to go after him two summers ago when the Heat were entertaining sign and trade offers...before the Celts got him. So, I trump you. Would have loved him on our side instead of the Celts. Oh, well.


I mentioned that they could have went after Posey for a fraction of the cost & years the same summer they signed Walton to his deal.
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32laker24
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:10 pm    Post subject: Can't win them all

True it is only one game. But it is no looking like a good trend.
They have been playing from behind to much.
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LakerSince72
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:13 pm    Post subject:

awwww $#!T !!!!!!


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10scott10
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject:

oldschool32 wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
SladeRider wrote:
I still stand by that I would of loved the Lakers to of signed Posey in the summer.


I wanted the Lakers to go after him two summers ago when the Heat were entertaining sign and trade offers...before the Celts got him. So, I trump you. Would have loved him on our side instead of the Celts. Oh, well.


I mentioned that they could have went after Posey for a fraction of the cost & years the same summer they signed Walton to his deal.

actually at that point of the off-season posey wanted more than the MLE.
thats why he didn't end up signing anywhere until 2 months after free agent signing started
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