The Official Jermaine O'Neal Thread
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LakerSanity
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
KobeDunk wrote:
Its obvious that LO + KObe as a duo won't get it done, I don't care if LO stays healthy all yaer, its just not enough. Bynum is a project and would not be a factor in winning a championship in the near future. I think Mitch need to find a way to improve NOW! JO is an allstar and I think would help alot, I would love to keep LO also but Mitch is not savy enough to get something like that done.


There is no such thing as "a duo" getting it done anymore....


I disagree, if you're duo are two top 10 players where one is a backcourt player and the other is a front court player, I think that duo could get it done. For example, duos who paired with eachother and along with decent role players could get it done -

Wade/Duncan, Wade/KG, Wade/Bosh, Wade/Brand, or Wade/Dirk
Nash/Duncan, Nash/KG, Nash/Bosh, Nash/Brand, or Nash/Dirk
Kobe/Duncan, Kobe/KG, Kobe/Bosh, Kobe/Brand, or Kobe/Dirk
Lebron/Duncan, Lebron/KG, Lebron/Bosh, Lebron/Brand, or Lebron/Dirk
McGrady/Duncan, McGrady/KG, McGrady/Bosh, McGrady/Brand, or McGrady/Dirk.

I think so long as you put any three decent role players around those duos above, that team would become an instant title contender. I am not so sure on Nash w/ Bosh, Brand, or Dirk, but I think the rest would all be amazing tandems. The thing is, if you have two dominant, consistent, and reliable scorers and true leaders on the floor at the same time, it can overwhelm an opponent (see Shaq and Kobe). A true superstar doesn't need anyone else to help them dominate a game (see someone like Yao or Amare), but rather can do it independantly and at times can single handedly lead their teams to victory. You put two guys like that on the floor with eachother, and its like "pick your poison."

JO, though, certainly doesn't meet that criteria because he isn't consistent or reliable enough as an offensive threat or as a leader to really not need another release valve (i.e. a 3rd player). JO would have be part of a big 3 to succeed, just as he somewhat did when he was part of a big 3 of Reggie Miller, Artest, and himself. Certainly, Kobe and JO wouldn't be enough and there would still be one more major piece needed. Bynum has the potential to be a dominant player in this league, potentially enough to even be part of a duo... however, it is more likely Bynum would also AT MOST become a second tier superstar, which would require he as well to have a 3rd part of a big 3 along with him and Kobe. Kobe and LO are still waiting for that 3rd player to join, maybe if not JO, it will be Bynum.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:35 pm    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
Quote:
LO= when healthy gives you but one less skill than JO, and adds about 3 or 4 more. Coming down the stretch of last season injuries and all was a rock next to Bryant... Negatives for this player aren't nearly as accurate as they should be labled as excuses being struggled up to attain Jermaine Oneal... At this point, pro Oneal folks should just say " I like JO better than LO" There really is no reality in butchering Lamar Odoms integrity as a ball player... The second half of last season, and into the playoffs should have erased any doubts in anybodies mind that Lamar Odom belongs in the purple and gold...


Huh? One skill?

Rebounding? Even.
Shot blocking/Help Defense? JO.
Man defense? JO.
Scoring? JO.
FTs? JO.

Passing? LO.

That's one area of the game where LO is better. He is a better passer and ball handler. He can take the ball baseline to baseline and finish like a guard. That's great to have in a player. However, he clearly isn't capable of initiating the offense for the Lakers (tried and failed, that's why Kobe does it now), so a lot of his ball handling talent is wasted. We NEED a player like JO, and LO struggles to fill that type of role.

Stop bringing up the playoffs the last two seasons. If Odom played against 6'7 power forwards all year long, and averaged 19/13, then we would have no problems. He'd be a Laker for life. Unfortunately, 98% of the time, he actually matches up with a power forward that isn't significantly smaller than him, so he struggles, both defensively and (at times) offensively. In the same situation, JO would not.

WITH ALL THAT SAID, I AM NOT A PROPONENT OF TRADING BYNUM AND ODOM FOR JO! JO is clearly a better player than LO, but he isn't that much better that the Lakers would be good enough to compete for a ring. They'd likely get to the second round, but I don't see them beating West's elite. However, with Kobe, LO, and JO all on the same team, I can see them winning it all.


You forgot ball handling.


Note the bold.


My bad


Scoring? You think that 3 or 4 pts is enough of an upgrade to call Oneal dominant in that category?
Kobe won't be deferring to ONeal immediately upon coming down the floor so, I doubt that average stays the same.. So if anything I would call that nothing above even as well...

FG% 482 for Odom compared to Jermaine Oneal's 436
Odom may struggle defensively against the leagues elite PF but, no, he uses the leagues pf with ease... That has never been an issue and the main reason Jackson uses him out of position in that fashion...

So, if you look closely the only thing you are really getting over Odom from the now notorious jump shooting bigman in Oneal is shotblocking, and man defense... Kwame Brown already handles the man defense against the leagues best 4's so that is already covered. Shot blocking is all you get that stands out from Oneal... With the return of Mihm even that becomes a minimal difference...

Lets just get that straight before we agree that the threesome would be challenging for the championship


You reasoning is just horrendous. Horrendous!

Odom scores what he scores. He didn't score 20+ppg before he got here, and he's scoring more or less the same now as he was before (+/- 1ppg). So, your reasoning for counting scoring as "even" when it obviously is not is ridiculous. That 3-4ppg that you dismiss as meaningless is the difference between a half dozen wins during the regular season.

Ah, but then we have FG%! Oh, this is the fun one. Odom is shooting 48%? Well, what did he shoot before he had Kobe to take the pressure off? You know, when he was the #1 option in Miami? What?! 43%?!?! No way! Your boy Lamar is far too good a shooter to ever do that! Hell, that's even worse than what JO shot this season! I'd say that since Odom, Kwame, Mihm, etc. have all had their FG%s rise dramatically since being teamed with Kobe, it's fair to assume that JO's will rise as well, especially since he shot over 48% when he had a good team around him.

Oh, and uhh, how the hell do you use Kwame to justify anything in this debate? We're comparing JO to LO. That's it. I can say that we have other players to handle the ball and pass, thus LO has nothing we need over JO. Would you like that type of argument?

So I'll repeat... with JO, you get better defense (in every aspect), better scoring, and blocked shots. With Odom, you get better passing and ball handling. Which description fits the PF mold better?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:17 am    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
Quote:
LO= when healthy gives you but one less skill than JO, and adds about 3 or 4 more. Coming down the stretch of last season injuries and all was a rock next to Bryant... Negatives for this player aren't nearly as accurate as they should be labled as excuses being struggled up to attain Jermaine Oneal... At this point, pro Oneal folks should just say " I like JO better than LO" There really is no reality in butchering Lamar Odoms integrity as a ball player... The second half of last season, and into the playoffs should have erased any doubts in anybodies mind that Lamar Odom belongs in the purple and gold...


Huh? One skill?

Rebounding? Even.
Shot blocking/Help Defense? JO.
Man defense? JO.
Scoring? JO.
FTs? JO.

Passing? LO.

That's one area of the game where LO is better. He is a better passer and ball handler. He can take the ball baseline to baseline and finish like a guard. That's great to have in a player. However, he clearly isn't capable of initiating the offense for the Lakers (tried and failed, that's why Kobe does it now), so a lot of his ball handling talent is wasted. We NEED a player like JO, and LO struggles to fill that type of role.

Stop bringing up the playoffs the last two seasons. If Odom played against 6'7 power forwards all year long, and averaged 19/13, then we would have no problems. He'd be a Laker for life. Unfortunately, 98% of the time, he actually matches up with a power forward that isn't significantly smaller than him, so he struggles, both defensively and (at times) offensively. In the same situation, JO would not.

WITH ALL THAT SAID, I AM NOT A PROPONENT OF TRADING BYNUM AND ODOM FOR JO! JO is clearly a better player than LO, but he isn't that much better that the Lakers would be good enough to compete for a ring. They'd likely get to the second round, but I don't see them beating West's elite. However, with Kobe, LO, and JO all on the same team, I can see them winning it all.


You forgot ball handling.


Note the bold.


My bad


Scoring? You think that 3 or 4 pts is enough of an upgrade to call Oneal dominant in that category?
Kobe won't be deferring to ONeal immediately upon coming down the floor so, I doubt that average stays the same.. So if anything I would call that nothing above even as well...

FG% 482 for Odom compared to Jermaine Oneal's 436
Odom may struggle defensively against the leagues elite PF but, no, he uses the leagues pf with ease... That has never been an issue and the main reason Jackson uses him out of position in that fashion...

So, if you look closely the only thing you are really getting over Odom from the now notorious jump shooting bigman in Oneal is shotblocking, and man defense... Kwame Brown already handles the man defense against the leagues best 4's so that is already covered. Shot blocking is all you get that stands out from Oneal... With the return of Mihm even that becomes a minimal difference...

Lets just get that straight before we agree that the threesome would be challenging for the championship


Wouldn't trade both for JO either but gotta point out a few things:
* LO's FG% was around 43% before teaming up with Kobe as well.
* JO may only average 3-4 more points, but he consistently draws a double-team, giving other players better looks and more often. Be honest, other than Marion, who else does LO draw a double team against?
* JO also takes away 4-5 points from the other team as a PF per 82games. All of a sudden, we're talking about at least 7-9 points when you combine both ends of the floor.
* Kwame's not an issue, the mentioned deal wouldn't necessarily involve him

You've already mentioned that LO's struggles were in part due to playing out of position. Not sure with how that fits in with you once again advocating his accomplishments at the 4 as above.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:25 am    Post subject:

http://realgm.com/src_twoplusthefoul/161/20070813/brand_injury_could_put_clips_back_in_cellar/

Idea by a Cips fan I can only presume.

I think we'd need to throw in at least a future 1st (maybe Farmar) to make it fair.

We can parlay it into a 3-way with Indiana for JO

Lakers get: JO, Harrison
Lakers send: Bynum, Kwame, Farmar, future #1, McKie, Sasha

Clips get: Kwame, future #1
Clips send: Maggette

Indy gets: Bynum, Maggette, Farmar, McKie, Sasha
Indy sends: JO, Harrison

Turiaf, Mihm, Harrison
JO, (LO), Vlad
LO, Luke, (Vlad)
Kobe, Evans
Fish, Crit
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:51 am    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:
http://realgm.com/src_twoplusthefoul/161/20070813/brand_injury_could_put_clips_back_in_cellar/

Idea by a Cips fan I can only presume.

I think we'd need to throw in at least a future 1st (maybe Farmar) to make it fair.

We can parlay it into a 3-way with Indiana for JO

Lakers get: JO, Harrison
Lakers send: Bynum, Kwame, Farmar, future #1, McKie, Sasha

Clips get: Kwame, future #1
Clips send: Maggette

Indy gets: Bynum, Maggette, Farmar, McKie, Sasha
Indy sends: JO, Harrison

Turiaf, Mihm, Harrison
JO, (LO), Vlad
LO, Luke, (Vlad)
Kobe, Evans
Fish, Crit


In a heart beat
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
gng930 wrote:
http://realgm.com/src_twoplusthefoul/161/20070813/brand_injury_could_put_clips_back_in_cellar/

Idea by a Cips fan I can only presume.

I think we'd need to throw in at least a future 1st (maybe Farmar) to make it fair.

We can parlay it into a 3-way with Indiana for JO

Lakers get: JO, Harrison
Lakers send: Bynum, Kwame, Farmar, future #1, McKie, Sasha

Clips get: Kwame, future #1
Clips send: Maggette


Indy gets: Bynum, Maggette, Farmar, McKie, Sasha
Indy sends: JO, Harrison

Turiaf, Mihm, Harrison
JO, (LO), Vlad
LO, Luke, (Vlad)
Kobe, Evans
Fish, Crit


In a heart beat


I wish
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:00 am    Post subject:

that deal makes sense for all parties involved. Will the clipps help their cross town rivals? hmmmmmmm
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:37 am    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:
THE_SHOES wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
Quote:
LO= when healthy gives you but one less skill than JO, and adds about 3 or 4 more. Coming down the stretch of last season injuries and all was a rock next to Bryant... Negatives for this player aren't nearly as accurate as they should be labled as excuses being struggled up to attain Jermaine Oneal... At this point, pro Oneal folks should just say " I like JO better than LO" There really is no reality in butchering Lamar Odoms integrity as a ball player... The second half of last season, and into the playoffs should have erased any doubts in anybodies mind that Lamar Odom belongs in the purple and gold...


Huh? One skill?

Rebounding? Even.
Shot blocking/Help Defense? JO.
Man defense? JO.
Scoring? JO.
FTs? JO.

Passing? LO.

That's one area of the game where LO is better. He is a better passer and ball handler. He can take the ball baseline to baseline and finish like a guard. That's great to have in a player. However, he clearly isn't capable of initiating the offense for the Lakers (tried and failed, that's why Kobe does it now), so a lot of his ball handling talent is wasted. We NEED a player like JO, and LO struggles to fill that type of role.

Stop bringing up the playoffs the last two seasons. If Odom played against 6'7 power forwards all year long, and averaged 19/13, then we would have no problems. He'd be a Laker for life. Unfortunately, 98% of the time, he actually matches up with a power forward that isn't significantly smaller than him, so he struggles, both defensively and (at times) offensively. In the same situation, JO would not.

WITH ALL THAT SAID, I AM NOT A PROPONENT OF TRADING BYNUM AND ODOM FOR JO! JO is clearly a better player than LO, but he isn't that much better that the Lakers would be good enough to compete for a ring. They'd likely get to the second round, but I don't see them beating West's elite. However, with Kobe, LO, and JO all on the same team, I can see them winning it all.


You forgot ball handling.


Note the bold.


My bad


Scoring? You think that 3 or 4 pts is enough of an upgrade to call Oneal dominant in that category?
Kobe won't be deferring to ONeal immediately upon coming down the floor so, I doubt that average stays the same.. So if anything I would call that nothing above even as well...

FG% 482 for Odom compared to Jermaine Oneal's 436
Odom may struggle defensively against the leagues elite PF but, no, he uses the leagues pf with ease... That has never been an issue and the main reason Jackson uses him out of position in that fashion...

So, if you look closely the only thing you are really getting over Odom from the now notorious jump shooting bigman in Oneal is shotblocking, and man defense... Kwame Brown already handles the man defense against the leagues best 4's so that is already covered. Shot blocking is all you get that stands out from Oneal... With the return of Mihm even that becomes a minimal difference...

Lets just get that straight before we agree that the threesome would be challenging for the championship


Wouldn't trade both for JO either but gotta point out a few things:
* LO's FG% was around 43% before teaming up with Kobe as well.
* JO may only average 3-4 more points, but he consistently draws a double-team, giving other players better looks and more often. Be honest, other than Marion, who else does LO draw a double team against?
* JO also takes away 4-5 points from the other team as a PF per 82games. All of a sudden, we're talking about at least 7-9 points when you combine both ends of the floor.
* Kwame's not an issue, the mentioned deal wouldn't necessarily involve him

You've already mentioned that LO's struggles were in part due to playing out of position. Not sure with how that fits in with you once again advocating his accomplishments at the 4 as above.



Quote:
JO also takes away 4-5 points from the other team as a PF per 82games.




When was the last time JO played 82 games?
LO was drawing double teams pretty often before he went down last season. Why do you think Walton was getting all those beautiful open looks from? Smush wasn't being double teamed, and Kobe was in full offensive mode passing on occassion only.

I'll tell you something else about that as well. LO rarely gets in position for double teams to form. One thing about LO is he makes whatever move he is going to make immediately. If he is going to shoot, there is no hesitation. If he is going to the rack, the defense better hurry. Make that mistake, and he'll see the opening and hit it like a marksman. Defenses will struggle to know what to do with Odom pretty much all the time. This is why I call him the ultimate weapon. If Kobe would use Odom right he would be Kobe's main dog. I'm hoping that will take place this year. We seen the union finally form in a beautiful fashion toward the end of the season. A healthy LO is second to but a few. This is why I'll never rank JO above Odom. LO has to many dimensions that JO could only wish to accomplish... I loving watching that guy work. When he on he is unstoppable. ahahaha! check the siggy! The dude will be back in a few weeks kicking asses, and taking numbers!

Can't wait!
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Last edited by THE_SHOES on Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject:

re4ee wrote:
Didn't Indiana halt all JO trade talk? Aren't they the ones who have repeatedly turned down every offer? How is that somehow Mitch's fault?

Isn't it just good business sense to plan for a little further down the line than 1-2 or 3 years? 29 teams will not win the championship any given year, does tha make 29 failed franchises? Unless you can be 99% certain that a move gives you a legit shot at the championship next season or the one following that, why would you trade the ONE young player who seems to impress the most BBall execs?

Does there look to be a trade that supplies immediate success, that still leaves a somewhat young core to continue that success? If not, is any move that appears to be plausibly doable worth risking the post-Kobe Lakers being even worse for several years while collecting lottery picks?


Excellent post ref.

Keeping an eye toward the future is the debateable topic (over and over daily here at least) but at the same time, it makes no sense to bend to the well reported offer that Indy has been adamant about in exchange for JO.

The Lakers put everthing on the table for KG and got the classic Celtic Shrug for a (despite what a lot of LG users believe) a deal that was only arguably better (but we'll see in time) and now folks are choosing to believe that the "other" Kelly Green bleeding GM in the league isn't trying to get the Lakers bite the pillow whilst they do their deed sans lubrication. The most likely answer to why a deal hasn't gone down yet is the most obvious.

It's a game of "who'll-blink-first?" and neither team can be faulted for sticking to their guns.

The bottom line, this team still has upside while Indiana is a lot closer to the place impatient Laker fans swear the team they root for are stuck in.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject:

So true Rock... So damned true....
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject:

[quote="LakerSanity"]
THE_SHOES wrote:
Wade/Duncan, Wade/KG, Wade/Bosh, Wade/Brand, or Wade/Dirk
Nash/Duncan, Nash/KG, Nash/Bosh, Nash/Brand, or Nash/Dirk
Kobe/Duncan, Kobe/KG, Kobe/Bosh, Kobe/Brand, or Kobe/Dirk
Lebron/Duncan, Lebron/KG, Lebron/Bosh, Lebron/Brand, or Lebron/Dirk
McGrady/Duncan, McGrady/KG, McGrady/Bosh, McGrady/Brand, or McGrady/Dirk.



Sorry but i think you've overrated Dirk.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:21 am    Post subject:

re4ee wrote:
Didn't Indiana halt all JO trade talk? Aren't they the ones who have repeatedly turned down every offer? How is that somehow Mitch's fault?

Isn't it just good business sense to plan for a little further down the line than 1-2 or 3 years? 29 teams will not win the championship any given year, does tha make 29 failed franchises? Unless you can be 99% certain that a move gives you a legit shot at the championship next season or the one following that, why would you trade the ONE young player who seems to impress the most BBall execs?

Does there look to be a trade that supplies immediate success, that still leaves a somewhat young core to continue that success? If not, is any move that appears to be plausibly doable worth risking the post-Kobe Lakers being even worse for several years while collecting lottery picks?


Good points.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:24 am    Post subject:

[quote="Rick12322"]
LakerSanity wrote:
THE_SHOES wrote:
Wade/Duncan, Wade/KG, Wade/Bosh, Wade/Brand, or Wade/Dirk
Nash/Duncan, Nash/KG, Nash/Bosh, Nash/Brand, or Nash/Dirk
Kobe/Duncan, Kobe/KG, Kobe/Bosh, Kobe/Brand, or Kobe/Dirk
Lebron/Duncan, Lebron/KG, Lebron/Bosh, Lebron/Brand, or Lebron/Dirk
McGrady/Duncan, McGrady/KG, McGrady/Bosh, McGrady/Brand, or McGrady/Dirk.



Sorry but i think you've overrated Dirk.




One thing about Dirk is that when things get serious, he almost always has somehow been questionable by the end of the series. When ever the Mavs get bounced it can always be directly traced to Dirk... This season was no exception... Amazing...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:24 am    Post subject:

How about:

Philly
Dalembert/Carney for Odom
Traded Player Exception (Iverson) for Harrison

Indy
Oneal/Foster/Harrison for Dalembert/Crittenton/Carney/Kwame/$5 million TPE

Lakers
Odom/Crittenton/Kwame for Oneal/Foster

Indy gets both a good young center (Dalembert posted 11 ppg, 9 reb, 2 bpg last year) and a prospect at point guard. Carney could be a future SG or be moved in a later trade. Kwame comes off the books next year. Big rotation is PF = Murphy, Diogu. C = Dalembert, Kwame

Philly gets Odom to fill their massive hole at PF and moves Hunter to starting center and has Harrison backing up. They save $$ by taking on a 2 year deal in Odom and moving a 4 year deal in Dalembert. Carney is an exceptable price b/c they start Iggy/Korver with Green/Young/Louis Williams in reserve.

Lakers get Oneal and Keep Bynum. Foster could likely be moved deadline for an expiring deal. If not he has a players option for nex season that he probably exercises to get a longer deal.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject:

Shoes, I know you be loving yourself some Lamar and a lot of that gets thrown back in your face around here but the simple truth is that any deal for JO cannot involve LO. Any Laker fan that's attempting to rationalize such a move is really just in full-out panic gotta-do-something-anything-NOW mode. Which will lead to hasty oft irrational decision making.

Now, I will admit that I was NEVER ever and Odom fan. Not when he was drafted and hyped with the Clips and especially so not after his pot problems. I always saw a guy that wanted to be "the guy" (especially when the Clips were playing against the Lakes) who'd make poor decisions and take ill-advised shots--usually 3's--at very crucial times.

When I heard that the Lakers had traded Shaq for a deal centered around Lamar, I smacked my forehead so hard, it scared my dogs.

And then I watched him play with a cynical eye and thought "this guy has unGodly tools for someone with his size and length so the only answer to why he hasn't blown up is that he's dumb." He has frustrated and teased far more than he's ever capitalized on his promise throughout his career. And the first 2 season he spent in P&G did very little to change my mind about him (although he was showing those periodic Lamar flashes after the all-star break and against the Suns in the playoffs of 2006).

But then came the tragic death of his infant and the struggles of his season in 2007 coupled with his injuries. But boy was he playing brilliantly before that. And man how did he ever nut up in the post season. In fact, in Game 4 or 5 (I can't remember which), he was playing out of his mind in the 4th quarter, looking like he was going to single-handidly will the Lakers to a surprising victory until Kobe (for God knows whatever reason) decided to go blatantly away from the hot hand and what was working to jack up shot after missed shot to resume the order of the series in the Suns favor. Not faulting Kobe for anything other than taking the wrong path in that quarter.

But, in hearing Lamar's post-game interview, I just caught a glimpse of his innards. He wanted so badly to get a chance to stay in LA and get after it again. There was a calm but burning desire in his eyes suggesting that it was a given that he'd be back with ferocity if given the chance. And considering how badly injured and in pain he was during that series, I believed him.

In know ... sounds corny and blindly hopeful but dude's been through a lot and these are the kinds of valleys of weeping that can be life-altering. Why can't he make that leap at long last? Why not now?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Bynum blossom into the center I beleive he'll become while playing his home games at Staples but if the opportunity comes to put JO alongside Kobe and LO ... you gots to make that deal yesterday.

But that all takes us back to the same thing: you cannot ship LO out for JO. To me, that's an unbudging point.

If that deal can be done, great. If not, then we'll see what happens.

Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing Lamar get healthy again and play with that sense of urgency he exemplified at season's end. You can't fault the guy ever for not being a true team guy. I've never seen a fellow Laker be so willing to offer such glowing, unwavering support of Kobe. And it isn't even close.

In the end, I truly hope he uses all these pained experiences to fulfill what he began in the playoffs last season for the remainder of his career. He deserves it.
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Pappy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:05 am    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
gng930 wrote:
THE_SHOES wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
Quote:
LO= when healthy gives you but one less skill than JO, and adds about 3 or 4 more. Coming down the stretch of last season injuries and all was a rock next to Bryant... Negatives for this player aren't nearly as accurate as they should be labled as excuses being struggled up to attain Jermaine Oneal... At this point, pro Oneal folks should just say " I like JO better than LO" There really is no reality in butchering Lamar Odoms integrity as a ball player... The second half of last season, and into the playoffs should have erased any doubts in anybodies mind that Lamar Odom belongs in the purple and gold...


Huh? One skill?

Rebounding? Even.
Shot blocking/Help Defense? JO.
Man defense? JO.
Scoring? JO.
FTs? JO.

Passing? LO.

That's one area of the game where LO is better. He is a better passer and ball handler. He can take the ball baseline to baseline and finish like a guard. That's great to have in a player. However, he clearly isn't capable of initiating the offense for the Lakers (tried and failed, that's why Kobe does it now), so a lot of his ball handling talent is wasted. We NEED a player like JO, and LO struggles to fill that type of role.

Stop bringing up the playoffs the last two seasons. If Odom played against 6'7 power forwards all year long, and averaged 19/13, then we would have no problems. He'd be a Laker for life. Unfortunately, 98% of the time, he actually matches up with a power forward that isn't significantly smaller than him, so he struggles, both defensively and (at times) offensively. In the same situation, JO would not.

WITH ALL THAT SAID, I AM NOT A PROPONENT OF TRADING BYNUM AND ODOM FOR JO! JO is clearly a better player than LO, but he isn't that much better that the Lakers would be good enough to compete for a ring. They'd likely get to the second round, but I don't see them beating West's elite. However, with Kobe, LO, and JO all on the same team, I can see them winning it all.


You forgot ball handling.


Note the bold.


My bad


Scoring? You think that 3 or 4 pts is enough of an upgrade to call Oneal dominant in that category?
Kobe won't be deferring to ONeal immediately upon coming down the floor so, I doubt that average stays the same.. So if anything I would call that nothing above even as well...

FG% 482 for Odom compared to Jermaine Oneal's 436
Odom may struggle defensively against the leagues elite PF but, no, he uses the leagues pf with ease... That has never been an issue and the main reason Jackson uses him out of position in that fashion...

So, if you look closely the only thing you are really getting over Odom from the now notorious jump shooting bigman in Oneal is shotblocking, and man defense... Kwame Brown already handles the man defense against the leagues best 4's so that is already covered. Shot blocking is all you get that stands out from Oneal... With the return of Mihm even that becomes a minimal difference...

Lets just get that straight before we agree that the threesome would be challenging for the championship


Wouldn't trade both for JO either but gotta point out a few things:
* LO's FG% was around 43% before teaming up with Kobe as well.
* JO may only average 3-4 more points, but he consistently draws a double-team, giving other players better looks and more often. Be honest, other than Marion, who else does LO draw a double team against?
* JO also takes away 4-5 points from the other team as a PF per 82games. All of a sudden, we're talking about at least 7-9 points when you combine both ends of the floor.
* Kwame's not an issue, the mentioned deal wouldn't necessarily involve him

You've already mentioned that LO's struggles were in part due to playing out of position. Not sure with how that fits in with you once again advocating his accomplishments at the 4 as above.



Quote:
JO also takes away 4-5 points from the other team as a PF per 82games.




When was the last time JO played 82 games?
LO was drawing double teams pretty often before he went down last season. Why do you think Walton was getting all those beautiful open looks from? Smush wasn't being double teamed, and Kobe was in full offensive mode passing on occassion only.

I'll tell you something else about that as well. LO rarely gets in position for double teams to form. One thing about LO is he makes whatever move he is going to make immediately. If he is going to shoot, there is no hesitation. If he is going to the rack, the defense better hurry. Make that mistake, and he'll see the opening and hit it like a marksman. Defenses will struggle to know what to do with Odom pretty much all the time. This is why I call him the ultimate weapon. If Kobe would use Odom right he would be Kobe's main dog. I'm hoping that will take place this year. We seen the union finally form in a beautiful fashion toward the end of the season. A healthy LO is second to but a few. This is why I'll never rank JO above Odom. LO has to many dimensions that JO could only wish to accomplish... I loving watching that guy work. When he on he is unstoppable. ahahaha! check the siggy! The dude will be back in a few weeks kicking asses, and taking numbers!

Can't wait!


....and If he's got an opening to the right, he'll go left! ...and everyone in the building knows it
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oldschool32
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject:

Pappy wrote:
THE_SHOES wrote:
gng930 wrote:
THE_SHOES wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
Quote:
LO= when healthy gives you but one less skill than JO, and adds about 3 or 4 more. Coming down the stretch of last season injuries and all was a rock next to Bryant... Negatives for this player aren't nearly as accurate as they should be labled as excuses being struggled up to attain Jermaine Oneal... At this point, pro Oneal folks should just say " I like JO better than LO" There really is no reality in butchering Lamar Odoms integrity as a ball player... The second half of last season, and into the playoffs should have erased any doubts in anybodies mind that Lamar Odom belongs in the purple and gold...


Huh? One skill?

Rebounding? Even.
Shot blocking/Help Defense? JO.
Man defense? JO.
Scoring? JO.
FTs? JO.

Passing? LO.

That's one area of the game where LO is better. He is a better passer and ball handler. He can take the ball baseline to baseline and finish like a guard. That's great to have in a player. However, he clearly isn't capable of initiating the offense for the Lakers (tried and failed, that's why Kobe does it now), so a lot of his ball handling talent is wasted. We NEED a player like JO, and LO struggles to fill that type of role.

Stop bringing up the playoffs the last two seasons. If Odom played against 6'7 power forwards all year long, and averaged 19/13, then we would have no problems. He'd be a Laker for life. Unfortunately, 98% of the time, he actually matches up with a power forward that isn't significantly smaller than him, so he struggles, both defensively and (at times) offensively. In the same situation, JO would not.

WITH ALL THAT SAID, I AM NOT A PROPONENT OF TRADING BYNUM AND ODOM FOR JO! JO is clearly a better player than LO, but he isn't that much better that the Lakers would be good enough to compete for a ring. They'd likely get to the second round, but I don't see them beating West's elite. However, with Kobe, LO, and JO all on the same team, I can see them winning it all.


You forgot ball handling.


Note the bold.


My bad


Scoring? You think that 3 or 4 pts is enough of an upgrade to call Oneal dominant in that category?
Kobe won't be deferring to ONeal immediately upon coming down the floor so, I doubt that average stays the same.. So if anything I would call that nothing above even as well...

FG% 482 for Odom compared to Jermaine Oneal's 436
Odom may struggle defensively against the leagues elite PF but, no, he uses the leagues pf with ease... That has never been an issue and the main reason Jackson uses him out of position in that fashion...

So, if you look closely the only thing you are really getting over Odom from the now notorious jump shooting bigman in Oneal is shotblocking, and man defense... Kwame Brown already handles the man defense against the leagues best 4's so that is already covered. Shot blocking is all you get that stands out from Oneal... With the return of Mihm even that becomes a minimal difference...

Lets just get that straight before we agree that the threesome would be challenging for the championship


Wouldn't trade both for JO either but gotta point out a few things:
* LO's FG% was around 43% before teaming up with Kobe as well.
* JO may only average 3-4 more points, but he consistently draws a double-team, giving other players better looks and more often. Be honest, other than Marion, who else does LO draw a double team against?
* JO also takes away 4-5 points from the other team as a PF per 82games. All of a sudden, we're talking about at least 7-9 points when you combine both ends of the floor.
* Kwame's not an issue, the mentioned deal wouldn't necessarily involve him

You've already mentioned that LO's struggles were in part due to playing out of position. Not sure with how that fits in with you once again advocating his accomplishments at the 4 as above.



Quote:
JO also takes away 4-5 points from the other team as a PF per 82games.




When was the last time JO played 82 games?
LO was drawing double teams pretty often before he went down last season. Why do you think Walton was getting all those beautiful open looks from? Smush wasn't being double teamed, and Kobe was in full offensive mode passing on occassion only.

I'll tell you something else about that as well. LO rarely gets in position for double teams to form. One thing about LO is he makes whatever move he is going to make immediately. If he is going to shoot, there is no hesitation. If he is going to the rack, the defense better hurry. Make that mistake, and he'll see the opening and hit it like a marksman. Defenses will struggle to know what to do with Odom pretty much all the time. This is why I call him the ultimate weapon. If Kobe would use Odom right he would be Kobe's main dog. I'm hoping that will take place this year. We seen the union finally form in a beautiful fashion toward the end of the season. A healthy LO is second to but a few. This is why I'll never rank JO above Odom. LO has to many dimensions that JO could only wish to accomplish... I loving watching that guy work. When he on he is unstoppable. ahahaha! check the siggy! The dude will be back in a few weeks kicking asses, and taking numbers!

Can't wait!


....and If he's got an opening to the right, he'll go left! ...and everyone in the building knows it


He'll go right, but he will inevitably spin back around so he can try to get a shot off with his left hand.
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THE_SHOES
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:03 am    Post subject:

Pappy wrote:
THE_SHOES wrote:
gng930 wrote:
THE_SHOES wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
Quote:
LO= when healthy gives you but one less skill than JO, and adds about 3 or 4 more. Coming down the stretch of last season injuries and all was a rock next to Bryant... Negatives for this player aren't nearly as accurate as they should be labled as excuses being struggled up to attain Jermaine Oneal... At this point, pro Oneal folks should just say " I like JO better than LO" There really is no reality in butchering Lamar Odoms integrity as a ball player... The second half of last season, and into the playoffs should have erased any doubts in anybodies mind that Lamar Odom belongs in the purple and gold...


Huh? One skill?

Rebounding? Even.
Shot blocking/Help Defense? JO.
Man defense? JO.
Scoring? JO.
FTs? JO.

Passing? LO.

That's one area of the game where LO is better. He is a better passer and ball handler. He can take the ball baseline to baseline and finish like a guard. That's great to have in a player. However, he clearly isn't capable of initiating the offense for the Lakers (tried and failed, that's why Kobe does it now), so a lot of his ball handling talent is wasted. We NEED a player like JO, and LO struggles to fill that type of role.

Stop bringing up the playoffs the last two seasons. If Odom played against 6'7 power forwards all year long, and averaged 19/13, then we would have no problems. He'd be a Laker for life. Unfortunately, 98% of the time, he actually matches up with a power forward that isn't significantly smaller than him, so he struggles, both defensively and (at times) offensively. In the same situation, JO would not.

WITH ALL THAT SAID, I AM NOT A PROPONENT OF TRADING BYNUM AND ODOM FOR JO! JO is clearly a better player than LO, but he isn't that much better that the Lakers would be good enough to compete for a ring. They'd likely get to the second round, but I don't see them beating West's elite. However, with Kobe, LO, and JO all on the same team, I can see them winning it all.


You forgot ball handling.


Note the bold.


My bad


Scoring? You think that 3 or 4 pts is enough of an upgrade to call Oneal dominant in that category?
Kobe won't be deferring to ONeal immediately upon coming down the floor so, I doubt that average stays the same.. So if anything I would call that nothing above even as well...

FG% 482 for Odom compared to Jermaine Oneal's 436
Odom may struggle defensively against the leagues elite PF but, no, he uses the leagues pf with ease... That has never been an issue and the main reason Jackson uses him out of position in that fashion...

So, if you look closely the only thing you are really getting over Odom from the now notorious jump shooting bigman in Oneal is shotblocking, and man defense... Kwame Brown already handles the man defense against the leagues best 4's so that is already covered. Shot blocking is all you get that stands out from Oneal... With the return of Mihm even that becomes a minimal difference...

Lets just get that straight before we agree that the threesome would be challenging for the championship


Wouldn't trade both for JO either but gotta point out a few things:
* LO's FG% was around 43% before teaming up with Kobe as well.
* JO may only average 3-4 more points, but he consistently draws a double-team, giving other players better looks and more often. Be honest, other than Marion, who else does LO draw a double team against?
* JO also takes away 4-5 points from the other team as a PF per 82games. All of a sudden, we're talking about at least 7-9 points when you combine both ends of the floor.
* Kwame's not an issue, the mentioned deal wouldn't necessarily involve him

You've already mentioned that LO's struggles were in part due to playing out of position. Not sure with how that fits in with you once again advocating his accomplishments at the 4 as above.



Quote:
JO also takes away 4-5 points from the other team as a PF per 82games.




When was the last time JO played 82 games?
LO was drawing double teams pretty often before he went down last season. Why do you think Walton was getting all those beautiful open looks from? Smush wasn't being double teamed, and Kobe was in full offensive mode passing on occassion only.

I'll tell you something else about that as well. LO rarely gets in position for double teams to form. One thing about LO is he makes whatever move he is going to make immediately. If he is going to shoot, there is no hesitation. If he is going to the rack, the defense better hurry. Make that mistake, and he'll see the opening and hit it like a marksman. Defenses will struggle to know what to do with Odom pretty much all the time. This is why I call him the ultimate weapon. If Kobe would use Odom right he would be Kobe's main dog. I'm hoping that will take place this year. We seen the union finally form in a beautiful fashion toward the end of the season. A healthy LO is second to but a few. This is why I'll never rank JO above Odom. LO has to many dimensions that JO could only wish to accomplish... I loving watching that guy work. When he on he is unstoppable. ahahaha! check the siggy! The dude will be back in a few weeks kicking asses, and taking numbers!

Can't wait!


....and If he's got an opening to the right, he'll go left! ...and everyone in the building knows it


Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhh yes my comedic friend, but.... Can they do a damned thing about it?


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clutchkobe
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject:

im trying to understand why most people on this board think bynum and lamar is overpaying for jo. which lineup is better

kwame/mimh v/s kwame/bynum/mimh
jo/turiaf v/s lamar/turiaf
walton/radmonivich v/s walton/radmonivich
kobe/evans v/s kobe/evans
fisher/crittenton/sasha v/s fisher/crittenton/sasha

why hasnt this deal been done already. yes we would like to keep lamar but lets get real. the first line up is still better than the second. at least we have made a step into contention. maybe at the deadline we can make a big step or by next summer get the third piece but for you guys who say lets do nothing.....i dont get it. you are going to loose the best player on the planet who is so much fun to watch for what......bynum. i have season tickets and there is no way in hell i pay to watch bynum....i dont care how close he comes to being good.....he will never be anything exciting. even if he is good this year he still is not as good as jermaine oneal. try to keep lamar but if you cant.....make the freakin deal.
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VocabuLaker
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:40 am    Post subject:

clutchkobe wrote:
im trying to understand why most people on this board think bynum and lamar is overpaying for jo. which lineup is better

kwame/mimh v/s kwame/bynum/mimh
jo/turiaf v/s lamar/turiaf
walton/radmonivich v/s walton/radmonivich
kobe/evans v/s kobe/evans
fisher/crittenton/sasha v/s fisher/crittenton/sasha

.



I like the comparison. I believe the only wild card is bynum, Kobe is "NOW the best player in the universe" Bynum is "WHO KNOWS?" If the above comparison makes the team better this year and with additions next summer even better then sure lets get rid of Bynum and Lamar.

Kobe has many good years left.... based on the age of Jordan when he won his last 3 Championships.
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THE_SHOES
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:47 am    Post subject:

Ya know what I love about this roster?

PG Derek Fisher/Jordan Farmar/Javaris Crittenton
SG Kobe Bryant/Mo Evans/Sasha Vujacic/Coby Karl
SF Luke Walton/Vladimir Radmanovic
PF Lamar Odom/Ronny Turiaf/Brian Cook
C Andrew Bynum/Kwame Brown/Chris Mihm/



Only a couple of trainees....

The rest are completely ready to rock-n-roll in the best offensive system in the history of the game....

Lets get this (bleep) started....
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kaoss128
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:28 am    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
Ya know what I love about this roster?

PG Derek Fisher/Jordan Farmar/Javaris Crittenton
SG Kobe Bryant/Mo Evans/Sasha Vujacic/Coby Karl
SF Luke Walton/Vladimir Radmanovic
PF Lamar Odom/Ronny Turiaf/Brian Cook
C Andrew Bynum/Kwame Brown/Chris Mihm/



Only a couple of trainees....

The rest are completely ready to rock-n-roll in the best offensive system in the history of the game....

Lets get this (bleep) started....


But that team still gets knocked out in the first round. Lamar and Bynum are our two best tradeable assests and one of the two must go.
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clutchkobe
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:34 am    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
Ya know what I love about this roster?

PG Derek Fisher/Jordan Farmar/Javaris Crittenton
SG Kobe Bryant/Mo Evans/Sasha Vujacic/Coby Karl
SF Luke Walton/Vladimir Radmanovic
PF Lamar Odom/Ronny Turiaf/Brian Cook
C Andrew Bynum/Kwame Brown/Chris Mihm/



Only a couple of trainees....

The rest are completely ready to rock-n-roll in the best offensive system in the history of the game....



Lets get this (bleep) started....
Quote:


so you are saying that this line up (lamar/bynum is better than jo). tell me how this is different from last year when you had the same hope. i sat through all 82 games and i dont have any trust in lamar, bynum or kwame. i was fooled for 2 years......
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Car54
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject:

clutchkobe wrote:

so you are saying that this line up (lamar/bynum is better than jo). tell me how this is different from last year when you had the same hope. i sat through all 82 games and i dont have any trust in lamar, bynum or kwame. i was fooled for 2 years......


This is the reason I'd do JO for Bynum and Odom without giving a second thought to it.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:27 am    Post subject:

Gimme_the_rock wrote:
Shoes, I know you be loving yourself some Lamar and a lot of that gets thrown back in your face around here but the simple truth is that any deal for JO cannot involve LO. Any Laker fan that's attempting to rationalize such a move is really just in full-out panic gotta-do-something-anything-NOW mode. Which will lead to hasty oft irrational decision making.

Now, I will admit that I was NEVER ever and Odom fan. Not when he was drafted and hyped with the Clips and especially so not after his pot problems. I always saw a guy that wanted to be "the guy" (especially when the Clips were playing against the Lakes) who'd make poor decisions and take ill-advised shots--usually 3's--at very crucial times.

When I heard that the Lakers had traded Shaq for a deal centered around Lamar, I smacked my forehead so hard, it scared my dogs.

And then I watched him play with a cynical eye and thought "this guy has unGodly tools for someone with his size and length so the only answer to why he hasn't blown up is that he's dumb." He has frustrated and teased far more than he's ever capitalized on his promise throughout his career. And the first 2 season he spent in P&G did very little to change my mind about him (although he was showing those periodic Lamar flashes after the all-star break and against the Suns in the playoffs of 2006).

But then came the tragic death of his infant and the struggles of his season in 2007 coupled with his injuries. But boy was he playing brilliantly before that. And man how did he ever nut up in the post season. In fact, in Game 4 or 5 (I can't remember which), he was playing out of his mind in the 4th quarter, looking like he was going to single-handidly will the Lakers to a surprising victory until Kobe (for God knows whatever reason) decided to go blatantly away from the hot hand and what was working to jack up shot after missed shot to resume the order of the series in the Suns favor. Not faulting Kobe for anything other than taking the wrong path in that quarter.

But, in hearing Lamar's post-game interview, I just caught a glimpse of his innards. He wanted so badly to get a chance to stay in LA and get after it again. There was a calm but burning desire in his eyes suggesting that it was a given that he'd be back with ferocity if given the chance. And considering how badly injured and in pain he was during that series, I believed him.

In know ... sounds corny and blindly hopeful but dude's been through a lot and these are the kinds of valleys of weeping that can be life-altering. Why can't he make that leap at long last? Why not now?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Bynum blossom into the center I beleive he'll become while playing his home games at Staples but if the opportunity comes to put JO alongside Kobe and LO ... you gots to make that deal yesterday.

But that all takes us back to the same thing: you cannot ship LO out for JO. To me, that's an unbudging point.

If that deal can be done, great. If not, then we'll see what happens.

Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing Lamar get healthy again and play with that sense of urgency he exemplified at season's end. You can't fault the guy ever for not being a true team guy. I've never seen a fellow Laker be so willing to offer such glowing, unwavering support of Kobe. And it isn't even close.

In the end, I truly hope he uses all these pained experiences to fulfill what he began in the playoffs last season for the remainder of his career. He deserves it.


Nice post, Rock. I think Lamar really came into his own after that first playoff series against the Suns where he completely outplayed Marion. He got hit with the death of his son last summer, and still came back and really tore it up before getting injured. And even after he got hurt, he still came back strong and really whooped on Marion in the playoffs.

Personally, I would consider a Lamar+Bynum trade to Indy for JO because I salivate at the possibilities of a Kwame+JO frontcourt.

That said, there is no other Laker that I pull harder for than Lamar.
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