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Car54
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Joined: 10 Aug 2005
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 Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^
That just shows he's productive on offense as the #1 option.
What it doesn't show is that
1- He can not defend guys like TD, Boozer and other stronger/physical PF's. They have always outplayed him in the playoffs. Guys like Brian Grant in his Miami days used to give JO fits.
2- FG%
3- Prone to injury.
Noone is saying JO isn't an all-star caliber player. He certainly is. The doubts are on how much better he makes the Lakers.
IMO there are some big positives, but there are also some big negatives. |
Wolf stop the nonsense
1)Everyteam JO faces pretty much has better players and more options on offense. they can afford to double him and force him the 1st 2nd and maybe 3rd option on offense into a bad shots.
2) Just an example of how much (bleep) your full of Jo out played Boozer while being tripple teamed and held Boozer to 38% fg% and 16ppg
3) JO would make up for the Bad defense Fisher will play here.
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Only if you go by their track records, JO and Kwame playing on the court together at the same time .. isn't happening more than 40-50 times a year.
Kwame + Odom only played what 25 games together last season? Kwame, Odom and Walton played some 22 games together as starter last season.
JO is no different when it comes to injuries. |
Who cares when LO and Walton will only show up together for 15 games per season? JO will make a difference everynight not just 30 out of 80
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RG73
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | It's not just Bynum who they'll have to trade.
There is still 17 million owed in salary. |
How do you get 17 million? Has to be within +/- 25%, no? Which puts them around 15 million.
| Quote: | Kwame. Crittenton. Cook. Evans. Farmar.
You see - basically 70% of the roster will have to go out in a trade like that. |
Ummm, how is 5/15=70%?? Also, they will not get both Critt and Farmar. And Bynum has to be in the deal. But Kwame, Bynum, Cook, Sasha and Farmar works. Given that Cook and Sasha are essentially useless, and Kwame is mostly useless, you're basically giving up 2 for 1.
| Quote: | | The Celtics are in position to do that sort of deal because they were dealing for a much better player and secondly they had no success the last 20 years or so in re-building. The Lakers are in the playoffs based on last 2 seasons while doing both (re-building + trying to win as much as possible). |
1st round exits are about as useful as not making the playoffs at all. So lets disabuse ourselves of the notion that the Lakers have been trying to win.
| Quote: | | For them trading Bynum + 50% of the roster makes little sense. Yes I am intruigued by JO-LO-Kobe trio, it could be as good any in the NBA, but the Lakers would still be behind the Spurs and Suns IMO. Factor in LO + JO injuries .. the Lakers could wind up at best a 48-50 win team next season even with that trade. |
Again, do your math. 33% of the roster, not 70%. LO could still be hurt and then this is still a barely .500 team. Or Kobe could get hurt. Then this is a 30-win team as presently constructed. This is why risk aversion tends to rarely lead to results.
| Quote: | | And lets wait to see Boston win rings with that sort of move or moves before we crown their method the one to model themselves after. |
Ummm, championships are usually built upon trading for superstars. Lakers trade for Wilt. Ring. Lakers trade for Kareem. Ring. Sixers trade for Malone. Ring. Trading for superstar bigs has a proven historical track record. JO isn't quite in that category, no doubt. But we could then point to the Pistons trading for Sheed.
| Quote: | | Personally I like SA's and the Lakers are atleast on track to follow them. Build through the draft. Lakers have loaded the roster with draft picks. Bynum, Turiaf, Walton, Crittenton and Farmar. Combined with the more veteran players like Kobe, Odom, Fisher .. this is a much more balanced roster than people think. |
Ummm, for the Lakers to be following the Spurs they would need to have 3 all-star players, a former all-star player, and a DPOY. The Lakers have 1 all-star. Do the math. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: |
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Car 54 can't keep it civil, what a suprise :roll:
| Quote: | | Everyteam JO faces pretty much has better players and more options on offense. they can afford to double him and force him the 1st 2nd and maybe 3rd option on offense into a bad shots. |
So why was his FG% low for a bigman when he had Artest, Reggie Miller, Stephen Jackson etc?
Compare Tim Duncan's FG% and shot selection with JO's. That should explain everything.
| Quote: | | JO out played Boozer while being tripple teamed and held Boozer to 38% fg% and 16ppg |
For starters nor you or I watched this game and know if they were matched up. Boozer often takes the low post guy and the Center while Okur takes the PF. Secondly one game does not make a playoff series.
I have seen actual playoff series where JO is given fits by guys like Brian Grant.
| Quote: | | JO would make up for the Bad defense Fisher will play here |
You expect to be taken seriously with this? |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Ummm, how is 5/15=70%?? Also, they will not get both Critt and Farmar. And Bynum has to be in the deal. But Kwame, Bynum, Cook, Sasha and Farmar works. Given that Cook and Sasha are essentially useless, and Kwame is mostly useless, you're basically giving up 2 for 1. |
What makes you think Indy will take Sasha and Cook?
| Quote: | | 1st round exits are about as useful as not making the playoffs at all. So lets disabuse ourselves of the notion that the Lakers have been trying to win. |
You're not the one pocketing the extra 2 million or so in revenue for playoff games.
They are NOT useless. Being in the playoffs for the Lakers is a must under Buss' ownership. They have missed it only twice in his entire tenure.
| Quote: | | Again, do your math. 33% of the roster, not 70%. LO could still be hurt and then this is still a barely .500 team. Or Kobe could get hurt. Then this is a 30-win team as presently constructed. This is why risk aversion tends to rarely lead to results. |
Only we know LO will play through the injuries and comeback during the playoff push. Can't say the same about JO.
Bryant is not as injury prone as JO anyway.
| Quote: | | Ummm, championships are usually built upon trading for superstars. Lakers trade for Wilt. Ring. Lakers trade for Kareem. Ring. Sixers trade for Malone. Ring. Trading for superstar bigs has a proven historical track record. JO isn't quite in that category, no doubt. But we could then point to the Pistons trading for Sheed. |
So who did the Lakers 3 peat team, Spurs 4 time championship teams, Houston Rockers 2 time championship teams, Bulls 6 time championship teams trade for?
That's 15 of the last 17 championships where the franchise player or main superstar was NOT aquired through trade.
More important is that the Lakers built dynasties not 1-2 run teams. The Heat, Pistons etc. they can be satisfied with trading for a superstar that gets them a shot at 1 ring. The Lakers under Buss have not been like that. They wait, re-build and then make the move that puts them in contention for a LONG period.
Get me a superstar who will make this team a contender for the next 5-7 years and I have no problem gutting the roster. The thing is there isn't a superstar like that out there who is available. It certainly isn't JO.
| Quote: | | Ummm, for the Lakers to be following the Spurs they would need to have 3 all-star players, a former all-star player, and a DPOY. The Lakers have 1 all-star. Do the math. |
Tony Parker was 4-5 years into the league before he got his all-star selection. Emau is not a bonafide all-star, he is more like an all-star caliber player. And he's in his late 20's.
You wouldn't have the patience that SA has shown in their picks. |
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: |
Compare Tim Duncan's FG% and shot selection with JO's. That should explain everything. |
Compare Tim's team mates with JO's teammates that should explain everything.
| Quote: |
For starters nor you or I watched this game |
Speak for yourself I saw one of the games
| Quote: | | Boozer often takes the low post guy and the Center while Okur takes the PF. |
Yes thats how it went but what you failed to mention was that JO was on Boozer even though Okur defended JO along with Boozer/ AK depending on the play.
| Quote: | | I have seen actual playoff series where JO is given fits by guys like Brian Grant. |
Really? last time I checked just LO was defending JO with Grants help (here and there) and the Pacers won that series.
| Quote: | | JO would make up for the Bad defense Fisher will play here |
You expect to be taken seriously with this?[/quote]
Yup because the last line in the defense is the anchor. When players know their shot is gonna be blocked inside they settle for jumpers.
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Tanlentueux
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | Amazing that these bafoons in the front office won't Gamble on this guy and turn around and treat Bynum like a sure thing. Another KG never had the heart to speak up like JO & Kobe has. |
exactly. KG is a loser. We will have the confirmation this year. i'm so glad we didn't destroy our team to get him. |
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indy_dave00
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: |
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Nothing has changed basicly everything in those stories is a rehash we already knew- only difference is JO said it to L.A. media .
IF JO ends up there Laker fan will love JO's openess, he says what he is thinking.
The reason no Laker trade has happened so far is Mitch has been totally lowballing the Pacers. As I've said Bynum has never been offered. Crittenton has not been offered.
Unless Mitch offers a decent package its more likely JO ends up a Net. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Compare Tim's team mates with JO's teammates that should explain everything. |
Ron Artest + Stephen Jackson (who won a ring with TD) + Reggie Miller + Jamal Tinsley.
Call me silly, but I would say that JO has had a 61 win team in the past. Yet his FG% has still not been comparable to TD. He is not in that class and certainly isn't as effecient.
| Quote: | | Yup because the last line in the defense is the anchor. When players know their shot is gonna be blocked inside they settle for jumpers. |
Or your bigs get in foul trouble.
As if that will stop the truly great penetrators. It will help, certainly. But in the playoffs - Nash, Parker, Wade etc. all of them will still destroy the Lakers defense.
Not to mention, a truly great anchor is ussually a Center on defense. Someone like Shaq, TD, Hakeem etc. Someone that can both defend the post man up, anchor through shotblocking and rebound. Kwame has that type of size but lacks the skills. Bynum has the size + skills to become that but lacks the knowledge. Once Bynum has the knowledge of defense, he will be a superior anchor to what JO is. Simply because he is bigger, longer and stronger. The one thing I am supremely confident in is Bynum's ability to block shots. He will be a good anchor, but we might have to wait another year or two. |
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Car 54 can't keep it civil, what a suprise :roll:
| Quote: | | Everyteam JO faces pretty much has better players and more options on offense. they can afford to double him and force him the 1st 2nd and maybe 3rd option on offense into a bad shots. |
So why was his FG% low for a bigman when he had Artest, Reggie Miller, Stephen Jackson etc? |
You gotta be kidding me. Your comparing Ron when he was avg 12ppg on 40% fg to playing with KOBE BRYANT???? don't even mention Reggie who was over the hill at the time.
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RG73
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Car 54 can't keep it civil, what a suprise :roll: |
He said stop the nonsense. That is civil. Your claims, especially the claim about sending out 70% of the roster, were, in fact, nonsense.
| Quote: | So why was his FG% low for a bigman when he had Artest, Reggie Miller, Stephen Jackson etc?
Compare Tim Duncan's FG% and shot selection with JO's. That should explain everything. |
Who cares really? He could shoot 30% for all I care, so long as he's capable of making up for Fish's utter inability to play the P n' R. There is also this nice historical trend of guys increasing their FG% playing with Kobe and/or in the tri. He shoots 46% for his career. If he sees a modest 2-3% increase with Kobe, he's shooting a reasonable 48-49%. Conicidentally, KG, who you feel would be a reasonable guy to trade 70% of your roster for, shoots 49% for his career. But yeah, worry about FG%.
| Quote: | | JO out played Boozer while being tripple teamed and held Boozer to 38% fg% and 16ppg |
For starters nor you or I watched this game and know if they were matched up. [/quote]
Do you know that he didn't watch it? There is this thing called League Pass.
| Quote: | | Boozer often takes the low post guy |
On the Pacers that would be O'neal.
| Quote: | | Secondly one game does not make a playoff series. |
One season doesn't make a career, but you want to focus on last season for JO.
| Quote: | | I have seen actual playoff series where JO is given fits by guys like Brian Grant. |
That's funny Wolf seeing as the only playoff series they faced off in JO's team won, and JO averaged 19 and 9 during those playoffs. I do believe JO dropped 37 in one of those games.
| Quote: | | JO would make up for the Bad defense Fisher will play here |
You expect to be taken seriously with this?[/quote]
Yes. Fish cannot play defense, JO is a defensive anchor. What's not serious there? |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Unless Mitch offers a decent package its more likely JO ends up a Net. |
But the Nets won't give up much more than Jefferson, anyway.
Didn't the Pacers get an affirmative NO from the Nets on dealing Jefferson + Kristic for JO?
For a guy you say Mitch is lowballing, it seems many other GM's are too.
Boston didn't deal for him.
New Jersey is balking on Jefferson + Kristic.
Denver didn't want to deal Nene.
Lakers don't want to trade Bynum + Odom or Bynum in any deal for him.
Again for a guy you say the Lakers are not offering enough for, seems to me they are offering right about the same most teams are right now. Odom's value is right around Jefferson's - which is what Thorn is offering. Odom + fillers is about the most Mitch should offer. |
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KobeDunk
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: |
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I dont expect the retards in the Laker front office to make such a bold move. They will hold on to Bynum until their heads turn BLUE and Kobe is in a different uniform... With that said JO will be a great fit in NJ if they don't give up too much!
Kidd
Jefferson
Carter
Moore
JO
That is an eastern conference contender!
If this actually happens expect Kobe to demand his trade again ! |
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | Compare Tim's team mates with JO's teammates that should explain everything. |
Ron Artest + Stephen Jackson (who won a ring with TD) + Reggie Miller + Jamal Tinsley. |
LMAO so your saying Stephen was Duncans 2nd option?
| Quote: | | Call me silly, but I would say that JO has had a 61 win team in the past. Yet his FG% has still not been comparable to TD. He is not in that class and certainly isn't as effecient. |
You know how they won 50+ games? DEFENSE with him as the Anchor.
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Rick12322
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| indy_dave00 wrote: | Nothing has changed basicly everything in those stories is a rehash we already knew- only difference is JO said it to L.A. media .
IF JO ends up there Laker fan will love JO's openess, he says what he is thinking.
The reason no Laker trade has happened so far is Mitch has been totally lowballing the Pacers. As I've said Bynum has never been offered. Crittenton has not been offered.
Unless Mitch offers a decent package its more likely JO ends up a Net. |
Thank You Indy_Dave, I am so glad to hear that and I believe you are the real deal. I'd love to have JO for some first round draft picks, Kwame. If JO really wants to come here he should re-negotiate his contract down to 11m, then sign and trade with Kwame. That will give him a shot at a championship(there not cheap), and Indiana will have a nice expiring contract and some draft picks. I can dream, right? |
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Tanlentueux
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Car 54 can't keep it civil, what a suprise :roll: |
He said stop the nonsense. That is civil. Your claims, especially the claim about sending out 70% of the roster, were, in fact, nonsense.
| Quote: | So why was his FG% low for a bigman when he had Artest, Reggie Miller, Stephen Jackson etc?
Compare Tim Duncan's FG% and shot selection with JO's. That should explain everything. |
Who cares really? He could shoot 30% for all I care, so long as he's capable of making up for Fish's utter inability to play the P n' R. There is also this nice historical trend of guys increasing their FG% playing with Kobe and/or in the tri. He shoots 46% for his career. If he sees a modest 2-3% increase with Kobe, he's shooting a reasonable 48-49%. Conicidentally, KG, who you feel would be a reasonable guy to trade 70% of your roster for, shoots 49% for his career. But yeah, worry about FG%.
| Quote: | | JO out played Boozer while being tripple teamed and held Boozer to 38% fg% and 16ppg |
For starters nor you or I watched this game and know if they were matched up. |
Do you know that he didn't watch it? There is this thing called League Pass.
| Quote: | | Boozer often takes the low post guy |
On the Pacers that would be O'neal.
| Quote: | | Secondly one game does not make a playoff series. |
One season doesn't make a career, but you want to focus on last season for JO.
| Quote: | | I have seen actual playoff series where JO is given fits by guys like Brian Grant. |
That's funny Wolf seeing as the only playoff series they faced off in JO's team won, and JO averaged 19 and 9 during those playoffs. I do believe JO dropped 37 in one of those games.
| Quote: | | JO would make up for the Bad defense Fisher will play here |
You expect to be taken seriously with this?[/quote]
Yes. Fish cannot play defense, JO is a defensive anchor. What's not serious there?[/quote]
RG don't waste anymore time with this guy. He'll continue to root for LO & Bynum while blaming Kobe for this team sucking.
*edit* this post came out wacky but I agree with RG
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: |
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RJ & Krystic >>>> Bynum & LO we lose again, but the good thing is NJ may not part with both plus they may want to see how Magloire works out for them.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He said stop the nonsense. That is civil. Your claims, especially the claim about sending out 70% of the roster, were, in fact, nonsense |
This is civil?
| Quote: | | Just an example of how much (bleep) your full of |
Only in RG73 world I guess.
| Quote: | | Who cares really? He could shoot 30% for all I care, so long as he's capable of making up for Fish's utter inability to play the P n' R. There is also this nice historical trend of guys increasing their FG% playing with Kobe and/or in the tri. He shoots 46% for his career. If he sees a modest 2-3% increase with Kobe, he's shooting a reasonable 48-49%. Conicidentally, KG, who you feel would be a reasonable guy to trade 70% of your roster for, shoots 49% for his career. But yeah, worry about FG% |
I'm not saying his FG% will never increase. I am not even saying that we should expect 43%. I am saying that for a bigman, his FG% is low and it will remain low regardless of who he plays with. It will not be above 50 .. somewhere around 45-47 is a reasonable expectation.
And the issue is that Bryant is also not a highly effecient scorer. Meaning your top 2 options score below 50%.
Compare that to the last few title teams.
Spurs: TD + Parker over 50%
Heat: Wade + Shaq over 50%
Almost every championship team has atleast one very effecient leading scorer. The Lakers wouldn't have that, post - JO trade.
Bash Bynum all you want, but he is a damn right effecient scorer. If he gets a team only 15 points a night, he will get them effeciently. Why? Simply because he is a true Center who takes very high percentage shots.
| Quote: | | One season doesn't make a career, but you want to focus on last season for JO |
The guy is 11 years into the NBA. It is entirely possible he is on a downward curve in his career. Not everyone can play all-star ball for 10 straight years. JO's last season could point to a player that is going to decline, allbeit slowly. Factor in his injuries, yes trading that much for JO is a risk.
You need to admit that trading for JO is a risk. Just like I and most others atleast admit that Bynum is a risk.
Biggest difference is as Sanity said, the potential that Bynum may fulfill is going to put the Lakers in a contending window for 10 years. The JO trade if made would not do that for the Lakers next season. They are still behind SA + Phx (Ofcourse you'll spin the Laker roster into new levels now)
| Quote: | | That's funny Wolf seeing as the only playoff series they faced off in JO's team won, and JO averaged 19 and 9 during those playoffs. I do believe JO dropped 37 in one of those games. |
Odom averaged 18-19 and 13, dropped 33 points + 10 boards in one game in the playoffs. He makes 6 million less than JO. Is he worth all these packages?
No.
There are some players that raise their level in the playoffs and others that lower it. You know which one JO has shown to be.
| Quote: | | Yes. Fish cannot play defense, JO is a defensive anchor. What's not serious there? |
Shotblocking alone does not make you an impact defender. Defense would improve, but not the way Car54 was implying. |
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Rick12322
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Jermaine O'Neal Not Interested in Rebuilding - Laker related |
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| Car54 wrote: |
WTF has Bynum done in this league? Bynum hasn't done Jack and potential doesn't warrant all of this hype. |
You really can't see the possibilities? |
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re4ee
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Here we go again, same posters over and understating the same obvious and stale points and counter points. Over valuing and under valuing players depending on personal points of view. Hyperbolic statemants all around. Can't we just be honest?
Jermaine is a fine player, he's lost a few steps but probably has 3 productive seasons left in the tank. If you trade for him, and for some reason the team can't win enough, he could use his opt out NEXT off season to move elsewhere. You have to weigh ALL the risk vs. reward factors, not just the one's that support your position! So basically to make a trade for JO a worthwhile goal, winning a title, within 3 seasons HAS to be realistic, and without question more than just possible.
IS IT?!?
I don't see it, do you give IND, possibly, a defensive anchor to build around for what quite possibly be 10-12 seasons, for a 3, maybe 4 year rental, with only a slim possibility that it would bring a championship?
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Jermaine O'Neal Not Interested in Rebuilding - Laker related |
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| Rick12322 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: |
WTF has Bynum done in this league? Bynum hasn't done Jack and potential doesn't warrant all of this hype. |
You really can't see the possibilities? |
I see a lot of possibilities like us losing Kobe is one them. [/i]
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Rick12322
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: |
I doubt that. JO will put up another 20 & 10 season what will Bynum avg? |
20 pts. at 43-46% from a PF/Center as a first option on Offense is not good. |
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TNLakersFanInLA
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Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: Chattanooga, TN
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | TN here's a trade demand
"I just told them I can't be in a rebuilding mode right now - I just can't go through that because physically it's going to wear on me too much to do that." |
That is not a trade demand. That is just complaining.
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Rick12322 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: |
I doubt that. JO will put up another 20 & 10 season what will Bynum avg? |
20 pts. at 43-46% from a PF/Center as a first option on Offense is not good. |
Really? How many teams have a big like that with an allstar guard that's stuck being mediocre?
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Coach Vogel, Kidd, Hollins
Max slot : Kawhi
Last edited by Car54 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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