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re4ee
Franchise Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 12237
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 Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| 21_Blessings wrote: | | re4ee wrote: | | KG didn't waive his opt out, he aggreed to a contract extention, commiting to stay in BOS. |
Key word bolded. Lakers would not make a trade for JO unless they were absolutely sure he was staying. That would be handled in the orignal trade.
| re4ee wrote: | | I didn't say he'd be DONE in 3 seasons, but starting in that 2nd or 3rd year, we'd be witnessing the phenomenon known as "diminishing returns". It's like what is happening to a whole lot of recent home buyers in CA, they commited more of their future, but couldn't get their homes without the sub-prime adjustable rate loans, which is now capping them out, so to speak, with larger payments than they can afford. They OVER PAID for an asset that is now worth LESS THAN THEY PAID for it. |
Did you not read what I wrote? I used your EXACT SAME WORDS 'left in the tank'.
Opting out would make ZERO sense for him if he is in the city where he wants to play and is making MAX money that he isn't even worth. Zero chance of him opting out in a situation like that.
| re4ee wrote: | | I am not stating that JO isn't worth going after, just that we need to acknowledge that overpaying for him carries RISKS! What some here are doing is focusing ONLY on the potential for POSITIVE while ignoring ALL RISK! |
Yet you're ignoring that exact same risk from the other point of view. |
Kobe's opting out would also make ZERO sense, if you're going to apply that logic. Where am I ignoring risk? The risk that Kobe may opt out? Avoiding THAT risk isn't an option, and it doesn't cost most of the young Lakers to accept that risk. The risk that Andrew doesn't .........? I really don't know what we'd be risking, hanging onto him. It's not like he's due for a MAX extension any time soon, so what's the risk? Is he going to fall on someone and end their career?
So what is the actual RISK of refusing to give in to IND's demand that Bynum be included in any deal? And if they also make ureasonable demnands from NJN, as well? JO can opt out and come here for nothing? It IS a possibility, in fact I'd place it a little higher on the probability scale than Kobe opting out when he can.
I understand that you may believe that Kobe's likely gone if the Lakers don't do something drastic, I don't believe that for a second. I see that as a remote risk at best, you may see it as being highly likely, but I do not. Maybe if I really believed that I could read a person's thoughts from a 2 day rant, I could see JO as worth those risks, but in all honesty, I just don't see Kobe leaving LA. BUT, IF I AM WRONG on Kobe's intent, I doubt that JO playing along side is going to make that much of a difference, and IF he's intent on leaving, he'd leave anyhow, with or without JO.
So you see, even IF I accept that the risk of losing Kobe without making a deal such as this, I STILL don't give IND Bynum for JO, because JO alone is not likely to change Kobe's mind anyhow.
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mirak
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 5238
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
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I will say this about JO: at least he wants to come to LA.
But that doesn't change the fact that Indy is asking for wayyyy too much for an oft-injured Eastern Conference PF who may be expected to play some center in the West.
And if JO is asking to come to LA or NJ, just how much leverage do Walsh and Bird really have? |
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Car54
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Joined: 10 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| mirak wrote: | I will say this about JO: at least he wants to come to LA.
But that doesn't change the fact that Indy is asking for wayyyy too much for an oft-injured Eastern Conference PF who may be expected to play some center in the West.
And if JO is asking to come to LA or NJ, just how much leverage do Walsh and Bird really have? |
Enough to send him to NJ for one consistent player in RJ.
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Capt.Skyhook
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Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 3991
Location: Louisville, Ky.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Jermaine O'Neal Not Interested in Rebuilding - Laker related |
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| Rick12322 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Rick12322 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: |
WTF has Bynum done in this league? Bynum hasn't done Jack and potential doesn't warrant all of this hype. |
You really can't see the possibilities? |
I see a lot of possibilities like us losing Kobe is one them. [/i] |
I would like to keep Kobe. But, I do not believe in catering to him just because he doesn't like what the organization is doing. I believe this organization wants to win and has very carefully chosen the path they believe will yield the best chance for success. And I agree with what they are doing right now.
Let's just try to keep in mind we both want the Lakers to be successful. Maybe it's more important for you to have Kobe as the hero here? That's not important to me. It's not my goal to worship star athletes. I want the team to come together and play good team ball. I want them to have good comraderie. Yes, I want Kobe to use his God given skills to be a part of that. But if he wants to leave because he doesn't like the approach the FO is taking then that's just too bad, he'll have to wait two years. As a matter of principle you just can't give into those childish demands, 'cause if you do you'll only create a breeding ground for more of the same. The buck has to stop here. |
So could you please tell me what careful path the organization has taken and what you agree with.
If it is to go young and totally rebuild, then they have failed. If they want to go that way. Trade Kobe for young talent and picks and get rid of the 10 million dollar coach and stop talking about acquiring guys like Kidd and KG.
If it is to win now, then they have failed again. You can't have Kobe playing with one of the youngest, least-talented rosters in the league and expect success. You also have to take risks to acquire bonafide talent. The FO hasn't done that.
Now if their goal is to be mediocre, have Kobe keep the arena packed and squeak into the playoffs, then the FO is doing a great job. |
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Bol
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| These articles are making me like Jermaine more. The problem is that the Lakers don't have any way to make a fair offer for him. They either have to give up way too much or way too little. I just don't see any way a trade can get done. |
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Car54
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Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 14424
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Jermaine O'Neal Not Interested in Rebuilding - Laker related |
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| Capt.Skyhook wrote: | | Rick12322 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Rick12322 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: |
WTF has Bynum done in this league? Bynum hasn't done Jack and potential doesn't warrant all of this hype. |
You really can't see the possibilities? |
I see a lot of possibilities like us losing Kobe is one them. [/i] |
I would like to keep Kobe. But, I do not believe in catering to him just because he doesn't like what the organization is doing. I believe this organization wants to win and has very carefully chosen the path they believe will yield the best chance for success. And I agree with what they are doing right now.
Let's just try to keep in mind we both want the Lakers to be successful. Maybe it's more important for you to have Kobe as the hero here? That's not important to me. It's not my goal to worship star athletes. I want the team to come together and play good team ball. I want them to have good comraderie. Yes, I want Kobe to use his God given skills to be a part of that. But if he wants to leave because he doesn't like the approach the FO is taking then that's just too bad, he'll have to wait two years. As a matter of principle you just can't give into those childish demands, 'cause if you do you'll only create a breeding ground for more of the same. The buck has to stop here. |
So could you please tell me what careful path the organization has taken and what you agree with.
If it is to go young and totally rebuild, then they have failed. If they want to go that way. Trade Kobe for young talent and picks and get rid of the 10 million dollar coach and stop talking about acquiring guys like Kidd and KG.
If it is to win now, then they have failed again. You can't have Kobe playing with one of the youngest, least-talented rosters in the league and expect success. You also have to take risks to acquire bonafide talent. The FO hasn't done that.
Now if their goal is to be mediocre, have Kobe keep the arena packed and squeak into the playoffs, then the FO is doing a great job. |
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LakersMD
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Joined: 27 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | mirak wrote: | I will say this about JO: at least he wants to come to LA.
But that doesn't change the fact that Indy is asking for wayyyy too much for an oft-injured Eastern Conference PF who may be expected to play some center in the West.
And if JO is asking to come to LA or NJ, just how much leverage do Walsh and Bird really have? |
Enough to send him to NJ for one consistent player in RJ. |
All-star players rarely are traded within their conference. |
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21_Blessings
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Joined: 13 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| re4ee wrote: | | Kobe's opting out would also make ZERO sense, if you're going to apply that logic. |
Different situations where that logic doesn't apply. JO would have to agree to stay in LA and not opt out if he was traded here. Cut and dry.
| re4ee wrote: | | Where am I ignoring risk? The risk that Kobe may opt out? Avoiding THAT risk isn't an option, and it doesn't cost most of the young Lakers to accept that risk. The risk that Andrew doesn't .........? I really don't know what we'd be risking, hanging onto him. It's not like he's due for a MAX extension any time soon, so what's the risk? Is he going to fall on someone and end their career? |
The risk of passing up a legit 20/10, all-star power forward for potential that may or may not develop.
| re4ee wrote: | | So what is the actual RISK of refusing to give in to IND's demand that Bynum be included in any deal? And if they also make ureasonable demnands from NJN, as well? JO can opt out and come here for nothing? It IS a possibility, in fact I'd place it a little higher on the probability scale than Kobe opting out when he can. |
Yeah, I'm sure JO is going to opt out of 70 million dollars and play for 500,000k. Makes whole lot of sense.
| re4ee wrote: | | I understand |
No, you don't understand since you keep putting words in my mouth. I'm just pointing out the obvious flaws/hypocrisy in your argument.
| re4ee wrote: | | So you see, even IF I accept that the risk of losing Kobe without making a deal such as this, I STILL don't give IND Bynum for JO, because JO alone is not likely to change Kobe's mind anyhow. |
Except Kobe stated he wants achange and him and JO have been friends since they were 15. Also, he makes the Lakers a better team. |
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gng930
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Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 11484
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| re4ee wrote: | | 21_Blessings wrote: | | re4ee wrote: | | KG didn't waive his opt out, he aggreed to a contract extention, commiting to stay in BOS. |
Key word bolded. Lakers would not make a trade for JO unless they were absolutely sure he was staying. That would be handled in the orignal trade.
| re4ee wrote: | | I didn't say he'd be DONE in 3 seasons, but starting in that 2nd or 3rd year, we'd be witnessing the phenomenon known as "diminishing returns". It's like what is happening to a whole lot of recent home buyers in CA, they commited more of their future, but couldn't get their homes without the sub-prime adjustable rate loans, which is now capping them out, so to speak, with larger payments than they can afford. They OVER PAID for an asset that is now worth LESS THAN THEY PAID for it. |
Did you not read what I wrote? I used your EXACT SAME WORDS 'left in the tank'.
Opting out would make ZERO sense for him if he is in the city where he wants to play and is making MAX money that he isn't even worth. Zero chance of him opting out in a situation like that.
| re4ee wrote: | | I am not stating that JO isn't worth going after, just that we need to acknowledge that overpaying for him carries RISKS! What some here are doing is focusing ONLY on the potential for POSITIVE while ignoring ALL RISK! |
Yet you're ignoring that exact same risk from the other point of view. |
Kobe's opting out would also make ZERO sense, if you're going to apply that logic. Where am I ignoring risk? The risk that Kobe may opt out? Avoiding THAT risk isn't an option, and it doesn't cost most of the young Lakers to accept that risk. The risk that Andrew doesn't .........? I really don't know what we'd be risking, hanging onto him. It's not like he's due for a MAX extension any time soon, so what's the risk? Is he going to fall on someone and end their career?
So what is the actual RISK of refusing to give in to IND's demand that Bynum be included in any deal? And if they also make ureasonable demnands from NJN, as well? JO can opt out and come here for nothing? It IS a possibility, in fact I'd place it a little higher on the probability scale than Kobe opting out when he can.
I understand that you may believe that Kobe's likely gone if the Lakers don't do something drastic, I don't believe that for a second. I see that as a remote risk at best, you may see it as being highly likely, but I do not. Maybe if I really believed that I could read a person's thoughts from a 2 day rant, I could see JO as worth those risks, but in all honesty, I just don't see Kobe leaving LA. BUT, IF I AM WRONG on Kobe's intent, I doubt that JO playing along side is going to make that much of a difference, and IF he's intent on leaving, he'd leave anyhow, with or without JO.
So you see, even IF I accept that the risk of losing Kobe without making a deal such as this, I STILL don't give IND Bynum for JO, because JO alone is not likely to change Kobe's mind anyhow. |
I think what he meant to say is that you're ignoring the risk that Bynum will amount to nothing but average.
As for opting out, depending on your rationale, either BOTH with opt out or NEITHER will opt out. In that case, either you trade Kobe now to preserve the future or trade Bynum now to maximize the present. Where I find fault is the continued philosophy of half-assing it. |
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mirak
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 5238
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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I love the logic of some of our posters.
JO wants to come to LA, he's now gone public with his wishes, he's narrowed his list of preferred destinations to two teams (one of which happens to be LA), so the solution is...to overpay!!! Let's ship out LO + Bynum and anything else Indy wants, heck, let's throw in a couple of 1st round draft picks!
And people think Mitch is a bad businessman... |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| mirak wrote: | | And if JO is asking to come to LA or NJ, just how much leverage do Walsh and Bird really have? |
As long as they're willing to say, "This is what we want," and turn down anything less. |
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Car54
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Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 14424
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| mirak wrote: | I love the logic of some of our posters.
JO wants to come to LA, he's now gone public with his wishes, he's narrowed his list of preferred destinations to two teams (one of which happens to be LA), so the solution is...to overpay!!! Let's ship out LO + Bynum and anything else Indy wants, heck, let's throw in a couple of 1st round draft picks!
And people think Mitch is a bad businessman... |
LO & Bynum isn't over paying. Just incase you haven't noticed we only won 42 games last year and one playoff game last year. What purpose would you have to hold on to guys that hasn't gotten you anywhere? You trade what you DON'T NEED for what this team DOES NEED.(2nd opt, defensive anchor, Inside presence) losing Kobe could mean over paying for Bynum being that he cost us The best player in the game.
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Max slot : Kawhi
Last edited by Car54 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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gng930
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Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 11484
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| Bol wrote: | | These articles are making me like Jermaine more. The problem is that the Lakers don't have any way to make a fair offer for him. They either have to give up way too much or way too little. I just don't see any way a trade can get done. |
The most logical answer to that would be to trade LO for multiple pieces and divide them among LA and Indy. The trade I've been pimping is:
Lakers send: Bynum, Odom, Crit, #1
Lakers receive: JO, Battier
Houston sends: Battier, Head
Houston receives: Odom
Indy sends: JO
Indy receives: Bynum, Crit, Head, #1
Filler's will be needed from all sides but that's the gist of it.
Kwame, Mihm
JO, Turiaf, Cook
Battier, Luke, Vlad
Kobe, Evans
Fish, Farmar |
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Car54
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 14424
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| gng930 wrote: | | Bol wrote: | | These articles are making me like Jermaine more. The problem is that the Lakers don't have any way to make a fair offer for him. They either have to give up way too much or way too little. I just don't see any way a trade can get done. |
The most logical answer to that would be to trade LO for multiple pieces and divide them among LA and Indy. The trade I've been pimping is:
Lakers send: Bynum, Odom, Crit, #1
Lakers receive: JO, Battier
Houston sends: Battier, Head
Houston receives: Odom
Indy sends: JO
Indy receives: Bynum, Crit, Head, #1
Filler's will be needed from all sides but that's the gist of it.
Kwame, Mihm
JO, Turiaf, Cook
Battier, Luke, Vlad
Kobe, Evans
Fish, Farmar |
I like that trade but Hou with LO Yao T-mac & Francis sounds scary. Then again let LO vacation there(when they need him) instead of here.
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Coach Vogel, Kidd, Hollins
Max slot : Kawhi
Last edited by Car54 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fan0Bynum17
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Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 15436
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | TNLakersFan wrote: | | you beat me too it. I wish he would demand a trade, make this alot easier. |
He already has in the past, but i'll give Pacers FO some credit they managed to tell JO their plans. Meanwhile Lakers lied to their star which lead to a public demand. |
Actually their lie led to them re-signing him. |
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fakethefunk
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 1124
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| mirak wrote: | I love the logic of some of our posters.
JO wants to come to LA, he's now gone public with his wishes, he's narrowed his list of preferred destinations to two teams (one of which happens to be LA), so the solution is...to overpay!!! Let's ship out LO + Bynum and anything else Indy wants, heck, let's throw in a couple of 1st round draft picks!
And people think Mitch is a bad businessman... |
Bro if you want a team with Kobe Bryant on it. You have to make a move... Kobe was recruiting the guy.... We have to take a chance or loose Byrant.
I don't mind gambling on a legitmate 20/10 power forward.
all that said if we can Keep Lo we do it of not send him packing with Bynum.
Time is unfortunately of the essence.
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" I have nothing in common with lazy people who blame others for their lack of success. Great things come from hard work and perseverance. No excuses."
KOBE BRYANT |
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JUST-MING
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 44149
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Jermaine specifically said Indiana would be interested in younger pieces. In which case, a deal has to be centered around Andrew Bynum. An offer of Bynum, with Brown's expiring contracts, Crittenton or Farmar with draft picks is likely the best deal for both parties.
Last edited by JUST-MING on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Car54
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Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 14424
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | TNLakersFan wrote: | | you beat me too it. I wish he would demand a trade, make this alot easier. |
He already has in the past, but i'll give Pacers FO some credit they managed to tell JO their plans. Meanwhile Lakers lied to their star which lead to a public demand. |
Actually their lie led to them re-signing him. |
He was ready to sign with the spurs but they held him off while they chased J kidd.
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Max slot : Kawhi |
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Car54
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 14424
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| fakethefunk wrote: | | mirak wrote: | I love the logic of some of our posters.
JO wants to come to LA, he's now gone public with his wishes, he's narrowed his list of preferred destinations to two teams (one of which happens to be LA), so the solution is...to overpay!!! Let's ship out LO + Bynum and anything else Indy wants, heck, let's throw in a couple of 1st round draft picks!
And people think Mitch is a bad businessman... |
Bro if you want a team with Kobe Bryant on it. You have to make a move... Kobe was recruiting the guy.... We have to take a chance or loose Byrant.
I don't mind gambling on a legitmate 20/10 power forward.
all that said if we can Keep Lo we do it of not send him packing with Bynum.
Time is unfortunately of the essence. |
BINGO! but I hope we can keep him
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Coach Vogel, Kidd, Hollins
Max slot : Kawhi |
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gng930
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 11484
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | gng930 wrote: | | Bol wrote: | | These articles are making me like Jermaine more. The problem is that the Lakers don't have any way to make a fair offer for him. They either have to give up way too much or way too little. I just don't see any way a trade can get done. |
The most logical answer to that would be to trade LO for multiple pieces and divide them among LA and Indy. The trade I've been pimping is:
Lakers send: Bynum, Odom, Crit, #1
Lakers receive: JO, Battier
Houston sends: Battier, Head
Houston receives: Odom
Indy sends: JO
Indy receives: Bynum, Crit, Head, #1
Filler's will be needed from all sides but that's the gist of it.
Kwame, Mihm
JO, Turiaf, Cook
Battier, Luke, Vlad
Kobe, Evans
Fish, Farmar |
I like that trade but Hou with LO Yao T-mac & Francis sounds scary. Then again let LO vacation there(when they need him) instead of here. |
We'll be fine. Kwame manning up on Yao and JO providing weakside help. Battier can handle T-Mac. I don't mind seeing LO continue to brick mid-range Js or do his best impression of Brian Cook and seeing Francis, James, and Bonzi shoot the team out of a contest. |
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Car54
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 14424
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| gng930 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | gng930 wrote: | | Bol wrote: | | These articles are making me like Jermaine more. The problem is that the Lakers don't have any way to make a fair offer for him. They either have to give up way too much or way too little. I just don't see any way a trade can get done. |
The most logical answer to that would be to trade LO for multiple pieces and divide them among LA and Indy. The trade I've been pimping is:
Lakers send: Bynum, Odom, Crit, #1
Lakers receive: JO, Battier
Houston sends: Battier, Head
Houston receives: Odom
Indy sends: JO
Indy receives: Bynum, Crit, Head, #1
Filler's will be needed from all sides but that's the gist of it.
Kwame, Mihm
JO, Turiaf, Cook
Battier, Luke, Vlad
Kobe, Evans
Fish, Farmar |
I like that trade but Hou with LO Yao T-mac & Francis sounds scary. Then again let LO vacation there(when they need him) instead of here. |
We'll be fine. Kwame manning up on Yao and JO providing weakside help. Battier can handle T-Mac. I don't mind seeing LO continue to brick mid-range Js or do his best impression of Brian Cook and seeing Francis, James, and Bonzi shoot the team out of a contest. |
Francis is gonna kill Fish though
_________________
Coach Vogel, Kidd, Hollins
Max slot : Kawhi |
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Lakers Dynasty 2000
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 5350
Location: So Cal
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nomoreshaq
Star Player
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 5179
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
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is
kwame/mihm
jo/turiaf/cook
walton/vlad
kobe/evans
fisher/farmar/crittenton
such a bad lineup? |
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Mr. EiGhTy-OnE
Star Player
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 8272
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Lakers Dynasty 2000 wrote: | Please get this guy.
Damnit. |
getjermaine.com?
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"When (Kobe) gets you on life support, he won't give you mouth to mouth. HE PULLS THE PLUG." -stu |
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gng930
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 11484
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | gng930 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | gng930 wrote: | | Bol wrote: | | These articles are making me like Jermaine more. The problem is that the Lakers don't have any way to make a fair offer for him. They either have to give up way too much or way too little. I just don't see any way a trade can get done. |
The most logical answer to that would be to trade LO for multiple pieces and divide them among LA and Indy. The trade I've been pimping is:
Lakers send: Bynum, Odom, Crit, #1
Lakers receive: JO, Battier
Houston sends: Battier, Head
Houston receives: Odom
Indy sends: JO
Indy receives: Bynum, Crit, Head, #1
Filler's will be needed from all sides but that's the gist of it.
Kwame, Mihm
JO, Turiaf, Cook
Battier, Luke, Vlad
Kobe, Evans
Fish, Farmar |
I like that trade but Hou with LO Yao T-mac & Francis sounds scary. Then again let LO vacation there(when they need him) instead of here. |
We'll be fine. Kwame manning up on Yao and JO providing weakside help. Battier can handle T-Mac. I don't mind seeing LO continue to brick mid-range Js or do his best impression of Brian Cook and seeing Francis, James, and Bonzi shoot the team out of a contest. |
Francis is gonna kill Fish though |
The difference is that JO has his back. Francis isn't the same player, Kobe can guard him for stretches. Bonzi is primarily a post-up player, Fish is strong enough to guard him for those stretches as well. |
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