|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ProjectAB
Star Player
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 1729
|
 Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | Jefferson didn't show any aggressiveness when he came into the league. |
I disagree. He was a bulldozer in the paint. Unfortunately, he got away with that in HS. In the NBA, everyone else was his size, so he had to compensate with actual post skills. |
Only the part after "in the NBA" is relevant, which proves my point. You can put up numbers even without showing aggressiveness. Now all Jefferson has to do is get his stamina to 40 min and he's an 18 and 13 guy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Sorry, but playing against each other for a couple of games doesn't mean that you're playing at that position. Even if they did view him as a center, you really think he'd be picked ahead of Howard, if they picked him as a center? And I would say that it's a little more embarrasing to be a 19-year old and still get picked behind an 18-year old one. Bynum has an excuse because he was at the same age as Oden. Just because Bynum was smarter, or you could say, the rest were stupider(which include not just Jefferson, but also Oden and Howard), and jumped a grade doesn't mean he should be penalized. And last I checked, being younger allows you more room for growth. So why should he be embarrassed?
Yes, I do remember you predicting Bynum as an 15 and 11 player, but if Bynum put up 15 and 11 next year(unless you somehow convenient think that Jefferson has peaked, in which case, I'll bet next year if he doesn't, you'll say that you knew he was going to do this all along), you'd really think he's going to max out there? |
You think it's just a couple of teams. I'm talking about elite comp all year. That's better than not playing any elite comp like Bynum.
Howard would've hung right up there with Oden and Durant if he was out of HS in this draft.
You're assuming now that these kids are stupid? What a poor assumption. Dwight Howard averaged over a 3.0 GPA in HS (Unless you think Kobe Bryant is dumb because he averaged the same thing), with a highly religious family, and a hell of a teammates on and off the floor. Think anyone questioned his work ethic like Bynum? No.
I don't care if the kids are 17 or 19 out of HS. I do care how much skill level and experience they do have as senior players. Bynum barely had any. The rest of the elite HS players had plenty. Regardless of age. Behind the curve.
Are you going to knock Stoudemire for being 19 out of HS because he went to at least 10 different high schools as a transfer student and went through plenty of problems at home (which actually made him slip to #9 in the draft)? Nothing about him says that he's a bad person outside of a slight ego (I hate that he's #1 instead of #32). He's still a better player than Bynum and work ethic alone from year 1 to year 2 AND from his recovery from surgery, let alone dominating an All NBA player Tim Duncan on both ends of the floor by year 3? Boy, talk about your poor comparisons.
| Quote: | | And last I checked, being younger allows you more room for growth. |
Well sure. The rest of the elite HS kids arguably started from at least age 13. Kobe? 4. Bynum barely came onto the scene as a 16 year old. Literally no one heard of him, while other elite HS kids were dominating their competition as 15/16/17 year old HS players BEFORE graduating at 19.
That's the part you're forgetting. Nevermind the fact that the elite HS players tend to transfer to Oak Hill Academy or another basketball oriented school to increase their chances of being scene in the NBA and learn basketball life on and off the court.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ProjectAB wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | Jefferson didn't show any aggressiveness when he came into the league. |
I disagree. He was a bulldozer in the paint. Unfortunately, he got away with that in HS. In the NBA, everyone else was his size, so he had to compensate with actual post skills. |
Only the part after "in the NBA" is relevant, which proves my point. You can put up numbers even without showing aggressiveness. Now all Jefferson has to do is get his stamina to 40 min and he's an 18 and 13 guy. |
But he's not there yet. Still waiting. It took forever for Curry to finally show his potential as an offensive center. Chandler? Well I've always liked his game. He never lacks in intensity, especially defensively or rebounding.
My biggest gripe? I'm not going to wait 4 more years, while Kobe turns 32/33 just for Bynum to finally show up and the Lakers to start competing for championships.
Bynum has had plenty of chances to explode this season over Kwame Brown. He did in the first 2-1/2 months. Fallen since. Can't get back up.
And once again, you're ignoring Sasha as a 19/20 year old with great work ethic, or Jordan Farmar drafted as a 19 year old kid with far more experience than Bynum, yet you project so highly of Bynum and not of Farmar? When Farmar has played basketball most of his life? When Farmar took his team to the Finals as a sophomore PG at UCLA?
Does that make you sound biased towards Bynum?
What are you really upset about? This doesn't seem like a conversation about Bynum. Just, more about my opinion of him. I already told you you can agree or disagree on that, but apparently, you can't let that go.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ProjectAB wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | Jefferson didn't show any aggressiveness when he came into the league. |
I disagree. He was a bulldozer in the paint. Unfortunately, he got away with that in HS. In the NBA, everyone else was his size, so he had to compensate with actual post skills. |
Only the part after "in the NBA" is relevant, which proves my point. You can put up numbers even without showing aggressiveness. Now all Jefferson has to do is get his stamina to 40 min and he's an 18 and 13 guy. |
No. You don't get my point. He started his NBA career injured, partially because he was such an aggressive paint player, which proves my point that he's getting numbers out of aggression, not from "without showing aggressiveness" as you speak.
| Quote: | He played primarily as a power forward and averaged 6.7 points and 4.4 rebounds in 14.8 minutes per game during his rookie season. Jefferson's 2005-2006 season was widely considered a disappointment, mostly due to a series of ankle injuries which limited him to playing in 59 games. He averaged 7.9 points and 5.1 rebounds in 18.0 minutes per game during his sophomore season.
In the offseason prior to the 2006-2007 season, Jefferson hired a personal chef and lost about 30 pounds. After experiencing lingering pain after participating in the Las Vegas Summer League, a CAT scan revealed bone spurs. On August 2, 2006, he underwent ankle surgery to remove these bone spurs. On November 8, 2006 prior to the fourth game of the season, Al Jefferson had appendectomy surgery at New England Baptist Hospital. The surgery was performed by Dr. Steven Camer and Dr. Farhat Homsy and assisted by Celtics Team Physician Dr. Brian McKeon. He missed seven games and returned to the lineup on November 23, 2006. |
Any other parts of history you wish to change?
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans.
Last edited by Mike@LG on Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fan0Bynum17
Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 15436
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| If Bynum can provide Daugherty like numbers with good shot blocking, I'll be happy. However since he doesn't have elite athleticism, he has a lot to improve on with his footwork, fundamentals, and post moves. He also needs a go to move. Sky hook? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | If Bynum can provide Daugherty like numbers with good shot blocking, I'll be happy. However since he doesn't have elite athleticism, he has a lot to improve on with his footwork, fundamentals, and post moves. He also needs a go to move. Sky hook? |
I'm not even asking for a skyhook.
All I want to see is this repeatedly.
Good box position on the floor to actually maintain triangle spacing.
Taking the correct shot pending on what the defensive gives him. 3 bloody moves. Jumphook. Dropstep. Short 7' jumpshot.
Yet, I see one or the other but not both every time he gets the ball. It's frustrating to watch.
Ask yourself. How hard is it to get deep position every time? When you've got the greatest post scorer of all time teaching you, how difficult is it to learn 3 moves on both sides of the block?
Simple moves. Nothing complicated.
But outside of offense, I just want to see Chandler-ish intensity defensively and on the backboard. I don't really care if it's 10ppg or 20ppg. I do care if it's 8rpg or 13rpg and 3 swats per game...
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ProjectAB
Star Player
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 1729
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
Sorry, but playing against each other for a couple of games doesn't mean that you're playing at that position. Even if they did view him as a center, you really think he'd be picked ahead of Howard, if they picked him as a center? And I would say that it's a little more embarrasing to be a 19-year old and still get picked behind an 18-year old one. Bynum has an excuse because he was at the same age as Oden. Just because Bynum was smarter, or you could say, the rest were stupider(which include not just Jefferson, but also Oden and Howard), and jumped a grade doesn't mean he should be penalized. And last I checked, being younger allows you more room for growth. So why should he be embarrassed?
Yes, I do remember you predicting Bynum as an 15 and 11 player, but if Bynum put up 15 and 11 next year(unless you somehow convenient think that Jefferson has peaked, in which case, I'll bet next year if he doesn't, you'll say that you knew he was going to do this all along), you'd really think he's going to max out there? |
You think it's just a couple of teams. I'm talking about elite comp all year. That's better than not playing any elite comp like Bynum.
Howard would've hung right up there with Oden and Durant if he was out of HS in this draft.
You're assuming now that these kids are stupid? What a poor assumption. Dwight Howard averaged over a 3.0 GPA in HS (Unless you think Kobe Bryant is dumb because he averaged the same thing), with a highly religious family, and a hell of a teammates on and off the floor. Think anyone questioned his work ethic like Bynum? No.
I don't care if the kids are 17 or 19 out of HS. I do care how much skill level and experience they do have as senior players. Bynum barely had any. The rest of the elite HS players had plenty. Regardless of age. Behind the curve.
Are you going to knock Stoudemire for being 19 out of HS because he went to at least 10 different high schools as a transfer student and went through plenty of problems at home (which actually made him slip to #9 in the draft)? Nothing about him says that he's a bad person outside of a slight ego (I hate that he's #1 instead of #32). He's still a better player than Bynum and work ethic alone from year 1 to year 2 AND from his recovery from surgery, let alone dominating an All NBA player Tim Duncan on both ends of the floor by year 3? Boy, talk about your poor comparisons.
| Quote: | | And last I checked, being younger allows you more room for growth. |
Well sure. The rest of the elite HS kids arguably started from at least age 13. Kobe? 4. Bynum barely came onto the scene as a 16 year old. Literally no one heard of him, while other elite HS kids were dominating their competition as 15/16/17 year old HS players BEFORE graduating at 19.
That's the part you're forgetting. Nevermind the fact that the elite HS players tend to transfer to Oak Hill Academy or another basketball oriented school to increase their chances of being scene in the NBA and learn basketball life on and off the court. |
I'm not sure what your point is here, you say age is irrelevant, yet you keep knocking Bynum for starting basketball so late, which implies that age is a factor, which is it?
As far as the grades issue, you say it's embarrassing that a senior is outplayed by a junior, I say not at all, if you're a senior and is still at the same age as a junior. You look at it as a negative that a senior is outplayed by a junior, I say it's a positive that you're a senior and is the same age as the junior, it just means that you have equal room for growth as the junior, not to mention that it implies that you're smarter. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ProjectAB
Star Player
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 1729
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | ProjectAB wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | Jefferson didn't show any aggressiveness when he came into the league. |
I disagree. He was a bulldozer in the paint. Unfortunately, he got away with that in HS. In the NBA, everyone else was his size, so he had to compensate with actual post skills. |
Only the part after "in the NBA" is relevant, which proves my point. You can put up numbers even without showing aggressiveness. Now all Jefferson has to do is get his stamina to 40 min and he's an 18 and 13 guy. |
No. You don't get my point. He started his NBA career injured, partially because he was such an aggressive paint player, which proves my point that he's getting numbers out of aggression, not from "without showing aggressiveness" as you speak.
| Quote: | He played primarily as a power forward and averaged 6.7 points and 4.4 rebounds in 14.8 minutes per game during his rookie season. Jefferson's 2005-2006 season was widely considered a disappointment, mostly due to a series of ankle injuries which limited him to playing in 59 games. He averaged 7.9 points and 5.1 rebounds in 18.0 minutes per game during his sophomore season.
In the offseason prior to the 2006-2007 season, Jefferson hired a personal chef and lost about 30 pounds. After experiencing lingering pain after participating in the Las Vegas Summer League, a CAT scan revealed bone spurs. On August 2, 2006, he underwent ankle surgery to remove these bone spurs. On November 8, 2006 prior to the fourth game of the season, Al Jefferson had appendectomy surgery at New England Baptist Hospital. The surgery was performed by Dr. Steven Camer and Dr. Farhat Homsy and assisted by Celtics Team Physician Dr. Brian McKeon. He missed seven games and returned to the lineup on November 23, 2006. |
Any other parts of history you wish to change? |
He still averaged a measely 6 and 4 his rookie season, which he was NOT injured. If he was so aggressive, why was he averaging 6 and 4? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well sure. The rest of the elite HS kids arguably started from at least age 13. Kobe? 4. Bynum barely came onto the scene as a 16 year old. Literally no one heard of him, while other elite HS kids were dominating their competition as 15/16/17 year old HS players BEFORE graduating at 19.
Age is relevant in comparison to levels of skills and experience.
Bynum only really on the scene for 2 years at age 17?
Or, Kobe, LeBron, Oden on the scene for at least 4 years, winning HS championships as sophomores or seniors, at the same age?
Even Kobe at 17 absolutely dominated his competition at 17. Elite high school comp. HS championships. Loads of basketball experience.
Andrew Bynum did not. That's why Bynum is behind the curve at age 17.
Even Jermaine O'Neal had more basketball experience at age 17.
| Quote: | Attended Eau Claire HS.
Selected by the Portland Trail Blazers as 17th overall pick in the 1996 NBA Draft.
Played in Portland till 1999-00.
Traded to the Indiana Pacers in 2000-01. Has been playing there ever since.
Named to the USA Today All-USA 1st Team in 1996.
Named South Carolina Mr. Basketball in 1996.
Led Eau Claire HS to three South Carolina state titles
Played in the Nike Hoop Summit in 1996.
Played in the McDonald's All-American Game in 1996. |
http://hoopshype.com/players/jermaine_oneal.htm
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans.
Last edited by Mike@LG on Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | He still averaged a measely 6 and 4 his rookie season, which he was NOT injured. If he was so aggressive, why was he averaging 6 and 4? |
Antoine Walker 24 24 34.5 .442 .342 .557 2.30 5.90 8.30 3.0 1.04 1.08 2.92 2.90 16.3
Raef LaFrentz 80 80 27.5 .496 .364 .811 1.90 5.00 6.90 1.2 .53 1.24 .88 3.30 11.1
Mark Blount 82 57 26.0 .529 .000 .713 1.70 3.10 4.80 1.6 .40 .78 1.93 2.80 9.4
Unlike Bynum, he had some competition ahead of him. Bynum doesn't even have Chris Mihm to challenge him, and Kwame doesn't put much of a challenge.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dvdrdiscs
Star Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 6274
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The only way I can see Andrew making a significant jump next year is if he busts his ass this summer working out. The guy gets punked by the likes of small guards. His footwork is excellent, and he has a soft touch BUT his strength is severely lacking. If he puts on some weight and muscle, I think he'll average a handful more boards and will dunk with more authority. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dvdrdiscs wrote: | | The only way I can see Andrew making a significant jump next year is if he busts his ass this summer working out. The guy gets punked by the likes of small guards. His footwork is excellent, and he has a soft touch BUT his strength is severely lacking. If he puts on some weight and muscle, I think he'll average a handful more boards and will dunk with more authority. |
I don't question that he won't work his tail off either.
But just because Eddy Curry averages 19+ppg doesn't mean I think he's a franchise center either.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dvdrdiscs
Star Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 6274
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | dvdrdiscs wrote: | | The only way I can see Andrew making a significant jump next year is if he busts his ass this summer working out. The guy gets punked by the likes of small guards. His footwork is excellent, and he has a soft touch BUT his strength is severely lacking. If he puts on some weight and muscle, I think he'll average a handful more boards and will dunk with more authority. |
I don't question that he won't work his tail off either.
But just because Eddy Curry averages 19+ppg doesn't mean I think he's a franchise center either. |
and you're right. there's just so many IFs that i don't understand how someone can guarantee his dominance or impact. andrew getting stronger is a first step though and to re-iterate, i'm more than willing to ship him for some help now. much safer gamble in my opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bynum will top off at 15 and 11. He may put those numbers up next year in the all important "Year 3" of big man development. Doesn't mean he'll get better than that just because it's only year 3.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
