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defense
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 Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Russell and Reaves are bargains
Vando, Rui and Gabe are over pays
Prince is a decent signing
The rest are meh guys, but cheap
They have not meshed well. It happens. |
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pio2u
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | Russell and Reaves are bargains
Vando, Rui and Gabe are over pays
Prince is a decent signing
The rest are meh guys, but cheap
They have not meshed well. It happens. |
That's true but Ham has to take some of the blame for that. He's been awful of late with his quirky line ups. |
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Dominic1981
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | Pelinka's moves were fine, precisely what the team needed.
Darvin Ham made the decision to go "Hey you know everything we were working on last season that worked and we could build upon? Let's not do that and pretend we're starting fresh and I have no clue what works and doesn't."
That's on the coach.
If you got a starting center that can average 17-20 a game coming off the bench and the best plays you can draw up for him are nothing that maximizes what he can do and he averages 3 PPG under your watch... the problem is the coach.
Willing to bet if Ham was fired, and a Coach came in, realized we have Christian Wood coming off the bench, would actually start running plays for him and suddenly people would be wondering "Well where was this!?!?!" Held back by an idiotic coach that has no clue the weapons the team has, nor how to maximize them. The kind that gets in the way the moment he sees consistency and a team that's figured it out and is in a rush to disband it the moment he sees it falter slightly.. but will stick with HIS own ideas far past failure. |
If Wood was a difference maker, he’d have had far more offers in the off-season. He was signed for the minimum and is giving minimum production |
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defense
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| pio2u wrote: | | defense wrote: | Russell and Reaves are bargains
Vando, Rui and Gabe are over pays
Prince is a decent signing
The rest are meh guys, but cheap
They have not meshed well. It happens. |
That's true but Ham has to take some of the blame for that. He's been awful of late with his quirky line ups. |
Agreed |
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troy
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Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Got to agree. I think the Laker players are good enough, especially with a healthy AD and Lebron leading the say. The problem is the Lakers are not built to be a regular season team. Their goal seems to be to win enough to stay relevant come post season, and then hope that AD and Lebron can carry the team with that one Laker, per game, posing as the main 3rd guy. I can understand what Mr. Ham is doing. It's still relatively early in the season, and he's trying to determine what the end-of-year lineup will be. It's frustrating to witness the lineup fluctuations, but there is a method to the madness. And the true blame for all of this lies squarely at the feet of players like AR, Rui, and DLo, the "others" as Shaq would say. These guys, especially AR, have failed to step up and be that 3rd star the lakers need. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Pelinka did build an unbalanced roster but it has happned before as well. So long as there is depth around AD/Bron, you have enough to compete. The issue this year was the guards, usually it has been the wings. This time around, Pelinka didn't build a roster with enough talented guards. However in his defence, he was probably expecating way more from Christie and Gabe.
The talent is there though. AD, Lebron, DLO - that's 3 players who has an all-star caliber or higher skillset. Just if DLO was used and trusted the way he was last year, you'd have a top 3. Instead we've seen a murky situation with DLO.
AD/Lebron have superstar skillset. DLO has an all-star caliber skillset (yes he does even if he's not consistent enough). Austin is an elite bench player (if you view him as such and not a starter) and Rui is a starting caliber big wing. We have also Prince a 3nD wing, and Vanderbilt is a 1-way impact defender (who should be playing the 5 but Ham doesn't put him there). If from the get go we trusted DLO, Prince, Rui around AD/Bron, we'd be good. Bring in Austin as a 6th man. We just don't have that consistent game plan from the coaches. They've been all over the place (and in love with non-impact offense players like Reddish, Vando etc).
A roster with the top 7 being AD, Bron, DLO, Rui. Austin, Prince, Vanderbilt should be a 21-13 at the very least and in the top 5 of the West, based on AD/Bron having played almost all the games. They even have the potential to be better than that seeing that Bron is playing better this year than last year at this time.
I understand if we were 3rd, 4th, 5th and people were asking to be #1 or 2, and we couldn't get there. That's a talent thing, possibly. We're not that good that we should seperate ourselves from the elite. But if you look at our talent level vs what we've had in the AD/Bron era, this is as talented a squad as you've had on offense. I understand there's some players who lack the talent to score on offense (Reddish, Vando etc) but that's not on Pelinka. I doubt when Pelinka put this squad together he thought he'd see Austin, Rui and DLO rot on the bench. He paid them to be core players. The fact that we have this much talent on offense and we're 24-25 in the league, that alone should be enough to tell you the biggest problem.
Pelinka is not the reason this team is underacheiving. Where I fault Pelinka is when he had some tradable assets in the offseason, instead of trying to get over the top he tried to run it back. That may have been due to ownership not wanting to go into lux tax. Letting Dennis go, for Gabe. Possible mistake. That happens. But the squad he put together, is still very good. AD, Bron, DLO top 3 on offense. Rui, Austin, form a top 5. Vandy, Prince, Reddish, Gabe. That's a much better roster than we had a year ago from today. |
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pio2u
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pelinka did build an unbalanced roster but it has happned before as well. So long as there is depth around AD/Bron, you have enough to compete. The issue this year was the guards, usually it has been the wings. This time around, Pelinka didn't build a roster with enough talented guards. However in his defence, he was probably expecating way more from Christie and Gabe.
The talent is there though. AD, Lebron, DLO - that's 3 players who has an all-star caliber or higher skillset. Just if DLO was used and trusted the way he was last year, you'd have a top 3. Instead we've seen a murky situation with DLO.
AD/Lebron have superstar skillset. DLO has an all-star caliber skillset (yes he does even if he's not consistent enough). Austin is an elite bench player (if you view him as such and not a starter) and Rui is a starting caliber big wing. We have also Prince a 3nD wing, and Vanderbilt is a 1-way impact defender (who should be playing the 5 but Ham doesn't put him there). If from the get go we trusted DLO, Prince, Rui around AD/Bron, we'd be good. Bring in Austin as a 6th man. We just don't have that consistent game plan from the coaches. They've been all over the place (and in love with non-impact offense players like Reddish, Vando etc).
A roster with the top 7 being AD, Bron, DLO, Rui. Austin, Prince, Vanderbilt should be a 21-13 at the very least and in the top 5 of the West, based on AD/Bron having played almost all the games. They even have the potential to be better than that seeing that Bron is playing better this year than last year at this time.
I understand if we were 3rd, 4th, 5th and people were asking to be #1 or 2, and we couldn't get there. That's a talent thing, possibly. We're not that good that we should seperate ourselves from the elite. But if you look at our talent level vs what we've had in the AD/Bron era, this is as talented a squad as you've had on offense. I understand there's some players who lack the talent to score on offense (Reddish, Vando etc) but that's not on Pelinka. I doubt when Pelinka put this squad together he thought he'd see Austin, Rui and DLO rot on the bench. He paid them to be core players. The fact that we have this much talent on offense and we're 24-25 in the league, that alone should be enough to tell you the biggest problem.
Pelinka is not the reason this team is underacheiving. Where I fault Pelinka is when he had some tradable assets in the offseason, instead of trying to get over the top he tried to run it back. That may have been due to ownership not wanting to go into lux tax. Letting Dennis go, for Gabe. Possible mistake. That happens. But the squad he put together, is still very good. AD, Bron, DLO top 3 on offense. Rui, Austin, form a top 5. Vandy, Prince, Reddish, Gabe. That's a much better roster than we had a year ago from today. |
well said |
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Hanging from Rafters
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Joined: 31 Jul 2018
Posts: 4574
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Turns out Pelinka's offseason was a bust (so far) |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
<snip>
I thought it was an OK offseason but not a great offseason, |
Even at that time I looked at his moves as the price to pay to get out of the Westbrook fiasco. People forget how bleak things looked at that time.
I wasn't a Pelinka fan then, and I still am not, but these moves are only bad with the benefit of hindsight. |
Nah man, many of us called the moves bad at the time they were made with foresight. An “Eat Crow Thread” was even made early to document that position ahead of time so that it couldn’t be denied that we felt that way from the beginning. So many, even in the media, was giving Pelinka an “A” when some of us saw it as a “C” at best.
Specifically, getting Vincent instead of Shroeder was commented on as a mistake. We mentioned CamRed was a good gamble due to size but perhaps the 2ndRd pick could have been sold to make room to have both CamRed and LonnieWalker as passing on LWalker was said to be a mistake also. Wood was said to likely be an upgrade over MoBamba but having both instead of Hayes was said to be the best move rounding out the no-brainers:
Shro over Vincent
Walker over MaxLewis
MoBamba over Hayes
Of all the new additions Prince was the only legitimate surprise as a positive with all the rest being just about what we expected.. and predicted from the beginning…without the benefit of hindsight.
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“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.” |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Pelinka's moves were fine, precisely what the team needed. |
No they weren’t. Signing Prince was a good decision, bringing in Wood and Hayes wasn’t. Overpaying Rui and Vincent were bad decisions. The team is built with one dimensional players, the defense is adequate but the offense is suspect. You constantly complain about the coaching, who the hell do you think hired Ham?
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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governator
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:12 am Post subject: |
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How do they players, AR and Rui specifically, DLo and Vando reg season too, how they regress so much this season? Can’t be cause no Schroeder as lone answer, Ham? I mean Bron has maintain, AD has looked better than last season
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“The main goal for the Lakers is to win a championship. All I care about, all we care about, is to raise another banner in the rafters.“ |
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Lakeshow23_
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pelinka did build an unbalanced roster but it has happned before as well. So long as there is depth around AD/Bron, you have enough to compete. The issue this year was the guards, usually it has been the wings. This time around, Pelinka didn't build a roster with enough talented guards. However in his defence, he was probably expecating way more from Christie and Gabe.
The talent is there though. AD, Lebron, DLO - that's 3 players who has an all-star caliber or higher skillset. Just if DLO was used and trusted the way he was last year, you'd have a top 3. Instead we've seen a murky situation with DLO.
AD/Lebron have superstar skillset. DLO has an all-star caliber skillset (yes he does even if he's not consistent enough). Austin is an elite bench player (if you view him as such and not a starter) and Rui is a starting caliber big wing. We have also Prince a 3nD wing, and Vanderbilt is a 1-way impact defender (who should be playing the 5 but Ham doesn't put him there). If from the get go we trusted DLO, Prince, Rui around AD/Bron, we'd be good. Bring in Austin as a 6th man. We just don't have that consistent game plan from the coaches. They've been all over the place (and in love with non-impact offense players like Reddish, Vando etc).
A roster with the top 7 being AD, Bron, DLO, Rui. Austin, Prince, Vanderbilt should be a 21-13 at the very least and in the top 5 of the West, based on AD/Bron having played almost all the games. They even have the potential to be better than that seeing that Bron is playing better this year than last year at this time.
I understand if we were 3rd, 4th, 5th and people were asking to be #1 or 2, and we couldn't get there. That's a talent thing, possibly. We're not that good that we should seperate ourselves from the elite. But if you look at our talent level vs what we've had in the AD/Bron era, this is as talented a squad as you've had on offense. I understand there's some players who lack the talent to score on offense (Reddish, Vando etc) but that's not on Pelinka. I doubt when Pelinka put this squad together he thought he'd see Austin, Rui and DLO rot on the bench. He paid them to be core players. The fact that we have this much talent on offense and we're 24-25 in the league, that alone should be enough to tell you the biggest problem.
Pelinka is not the reason this team is underacheiving. Where I fault Pelinka is when he had some tradable assets in the offseason, instead of trying to get over the top he tried to run it back. That may have been due to ownership not wanting to go into lux tax. Letting Dennis go, for Gabe. Possible mistake. That happens. But the squad he put together, is still very good. AD, Bron, DLO top 3 on offense. Rui, Austin, form a top 5. Vandy, Prince, Reddish, Gabe. That's a much better roster than we had a year ago from today. |
DLO does not have an all-star skillset. He's slotted as a slightly below average starting PG by most pundits/publications. His streaky shooting doesn't make up for his lack of athleticism and ability to get downhill and pressure the rim |
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Lakeshow23_
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Btw Beasley is shooting 47% from 3 on the season  We really might be cursed. |
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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The regression is expected, other teams have scouting departments.
I think the moves are fine
6’3” G Vincent
6’5” G Reaves, #14 SG
6’8” G Reddish, #56 SF
6’6” F Prince, #44 SF
6’8” F Hachimura, #38 PF
6’9” F Vanderbilt, #61 PF
6’10” C Wood, #49 C
7’0” C Hayes, #76 C
The only move that looks like a bust is Gabe, they really miss Dennis. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | How do they players, AR and Rui specifically, DLo and Vando reg season too, how they regress so much this season? Can’t be cause no Schroeder as lone answer, Ham? I mean Bron has maintain, AD has looked better than last season |
I'd say the disappointment isn't that they've regressed, but that they haven't taken the big leap a lot of fans were hoping for.
Rui isn't performing much differently than last year, so I wouldn't say he has regressed.
AR started the season slow, but he seems back on track now. That said, it wouldn't be surprising for his shooting percentages to get lower with added attention and scouting.
Vanderbilt's a different case. He's recovering from a heel injury. |
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Nonamehero
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | governator wrote: | | How do they players, AR and Rui specifically, DLo and Vando reg season too, how they regress so much this season? Can’t be cause no Schroeder as lone answer, Ham? I mean Bron has maintain, AD has looked better than last season |
I'd say the disappointment isn't that they've regressed, but that they haven't taken the big leap a lot of fans were hoping for.
Rui isn't performing much differently than last year, so I wouldn't say he has regressed.
AR started the season slow, but he seems back on track now. That said, it wouldn't be surprising for his shooting percentages to get lower with added attention and scouting.
Vanderbilt's a different case. He's recovering from a heel injury. |
Do you watch basketball games at all?
Rui gets yank out of the game when he is hot, his minutes are unpredictable.
It is amazing he is able to produce at all given the situation.
AR defense has been exposed since Denver and Olympic, we just can’t have him play with Russell. But he is great off the bench.
There are a bunch of idiots talking with blindfolds in this thread.
Saying these players are not producing.
Are they even given any minutes? Is there even an offensive system that maximize players strength?
You guys sound like Ham |
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Polarbear
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| nomoreshaq wrote: | | miggz23 wrote: | Pelinka’s move was fine…
But coaching is killing this team. No excuse for Ham not to go back to the line-ups that got him to WCF when everyone was healthy. Now look like they losing some key guys again. Probably lost 3-5 close games because of stupid line-up experiment rotations and looking like a deer staring at a headlight out there on certain game situations. His inconsistency also on giving guys minutes reason some of this guys are up and down.
Then players like DLO, at some night Reaves/Rui/Vando not living up to last year play but that might be more due to whats going on with Ham above. |
i'd sure rather have had walker, beasley and dennis over reddish, max and gabe. |
Prince is giving you all of the outside shooting that we should’ve gotten last year with Beasley I’m not understanding acting like he was like this great Laker flare he sucked for the Lakers. The only guy that we didn’t bring back that we are missing right now is Schroeder and boy are we missing him |
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samnizam
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Honestly to me some of the move were okay especially after the stupid move acquiring RW something had to happen. People neglect to remember that other teams they are not stupid to give assets with no returns. No magic wand you do a trade and hope for the best we have signed many 3 point shooters that for some reason or another they don’t produce for this team.
Reality you need winner’s, players who value lakers brands (Kobe, AR,Magic)
Not value pay check .
Every team in the nba will be gunning for the lakers every night every day one of the reasons some team's if not all shoot like crazy against us . It’s the lakers after all.
Finally it laughable some people on this form think they love the lakers more than Jenny Buss or they call her cheap. Give me a break the team has on of the most highest payroll in the league.
Rob will do the right thing he did before and everyone applauds him when he did now they are calling for his head. Chill out |
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ThePageDude
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Posts: 2622
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Turns out Pelinka's offseason was a bust (so far) |
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| Hanging from Rafters wrote: |
Specifically, getting Vincent instead of Shroeder was commented on as a mistake. We mentioned CamRed was a good gamble due to size but perhaps the 2ndRd pick could have been sold to make room to have both CamRed and LonnieWalker as passing on LWalker was said to be a mistake also. Wood was said to likely be an upgrade over MoBamba but having both instead of Hayes was said to be the best move rounding out the no-brainers:
Shro over Vincent
Walker over MaxLewis
MoBamba over Hayes
. |
Shro over Vincent: Vincent's injured, how can you definitively say that if he was healthy he wouldn't have produced? (For the record I prefer Schro, but no one knew at the time of the trade that Vincent would get injured, therefore this is 'hindsight' ).
Walker over MaxLewis: I have no idea if LW4 even would've stayed given that his priority is minutes and he would not have gotten minutes ahead of DLo/AR/Vincent/TP, not to mention Christie. If you have info that he would've come back as the 5th guard on the team, sure, I will accept your argument, but not otherwise.
MoBamba over Hayes: It's really Wood over MoBamba (they waited for Wood to spring free) and that was absolutely the right call, as a stretch-5 Wood is a better choice.
But since they got Hayes first it appears to be a Hayes for Bamba decision, so fine let's even compare these two:
First, would Bamba have come back for the vet-min? I'm not at all sure, but let's say he would have. OK then ..
Hayes is a much better rim-runner/lob-target, while Bamba has a 3-point shot. The problem is neither has plays run for them nor is featured on offense (and for whatever reason Ham hardly played Bamba with AD), so the offensive numbers are pretty meaningless, the far more important numbers are block-rate, rebounding, put-backs, P&R defensive ratings.
Here's where it gets interesting: they both performed pretty similarly in 2022 - see for yourself at basketball-reference.com. The objective evidence at the time of the decision showed them to be pretty similar players on the categories that define their role. So I have absolutely 0 issues with their decision. It has not panned out, Hayes hasn't (yet) proven to be of value, but as stated, that's 'hindsight' |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144578
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| samnizam wrote: | Honestly to me some of the move were okay especially after the stupid move acquiring RW something had to happen. People neglect to remember that other teams they are not stupid to give assets with no returns. No magic wand you do a trade and hope for the best we have signed many 3 point shooters that for some reason or another they don’t produce for this team.
Reality you need winner’s, players who value lakers brands (Kobe, AR,Magic)
Not value pay check .
Every team in the nba will be gunning for the lakers every night every day one of the reasons some team's if not all shoot like crazy against us . It’s the lakers after all.
Finally it laughable some people on this form think they love the lakers more than Jenny Buss or they call her cheap. Give me a break the team has on of the most highest payroll in the league.
Rob will do the right thing he did before and everyone applauds him when he did now they are calling for his head. Chill out |
The Lakers are tenth in player payroll.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
DLO does not have an all-star skillset. He's slotted as a slightly below average starting PG by most pundits/publications. His streaky shooting doesn't make up for his lack of athleticism and ability to get downhill and pressure the rim |
This is tough for me. I'll tell you why. Years ago, DLO was overrated here on this board. I always felt we were better of drafting Porzingis. As he's showing in Boston, when healthy he is one of the most valuable bigs in the league. Many people thought that DLO would be Harden 2.0, but now it's gone the opposite route. He's vastly underrated.
Let me tell you why I rate DLO higher now than ever. I just went through a year and half of watching an older Westbrook play the game. He in his prime, did all the things that people want in an "all-star". But I loathed the Westbrook Lakers.
DLO came in, and he did all the things Westbrook didn't.
1) Make a high IQ pass without being TO prone.
2) Shoot the open 3 well enough to make defenses pay
3) Not force the penetration.
When we had some shooters and speed around DLO, AD and Bron, we were one of the better teams in the West.
Here's what happened.
1) Ham changed the offense.
2) Ham messed with rotations and minutes for Austin, DLO, Rui.
3) Pelinka let too many quality rotation players go, guys that gave good minutes to the team, replacing them with players that only bring situational defense.
1, 2 and 3 is the reason the Lakers went from a .650 ballclub to .500.
They still will make the playoffs/play ins, but they are not underacheiving due to DLO. He's been a great change to what Westbrook brought. I have little problem with DLO at 18.5M a year. If anything, in today's league, that's a bargain for a player that has made an all-star team and still is capable to give you 15-20 points, 6-7 assists, 3 pointers, good A/TO ratio. |
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zambia
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Posts: 1227
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Jesse Buss is the assistant GM, and co-owner. How come he gets a free pass with all the BS FA signings. I thought he had Marty Blake skills, with a special eye for talent. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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I mean we just got our butts handed to us without DLO. DLO has been off the bench for a few games now, missing the most recent one. We've been playing far worse without DLO, than with.
I really think people forget how bad it is pairing an attacking athletic PG and Lebron together. What people can call "wow all-star" I don't appreciate. I think one of Pelinka's best moves was replacing Westbrook with DLO. Unfortunately Pelinka being Pelinka and always craving change, he moved on from Dennis and Beasley, 2 guys he could have easily kept.
I would have liked to have seen Rui/AD/Bron/DLO/Austin/Vanderbilt/Bamba/Bealsey top 8 with a coach like Vogel (or a better coach like Nurse) and run this, but alas Pelinka is Pelinka.
Don't get me wrong, we're not Boston/Denver level. But we are close if we used the players the right way and made some good moves in the offseason. Most of the offseason moves were duds and the coaching staff is completly mishandling DLO, Austin, Rui. Changing the offense seems like a big mistake as well. |
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Bron2AD
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Posts: 9464
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Prince was ok but ham is over using him
Vincent was garbage signing
Hayes was trash
Wood was really trash
Cam was ok |
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Bron2AD wrote: | Prince was ok but ham is over using him
Vincent was garbage signing
Hayes was trash
Wood was really trash
Cam was ok |
Wood was a high upside move imo. He still possesses a skill set offensively that we need, but don't use enough. |
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Bron2AD
Star Player
Joined: 01 Jun 2021
Posts: 9464
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| panamaniac wrote: | | Bron2AD wrote: | Prince was ok but ham is over using him
Vincent was garbage signing
Hayes was trash
Wood was really trash
Cam was ok |
Wood was a high upside move imo. He still possesses a skill set offensively that we need, but don't use enough. |
Eh there was a reason he wasn’t signed till mid August or whenever he was signed |
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