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mad55557777
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 23445
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 Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 9:09 am Post subject: |
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he didn't break any laws(it is a red state, duh).
however, he is an employee of a private company so he will be punished by the company. Adam Silver will come down hard on him given he literally got slapped on the face by going easy on JA the first time. he will probably make an example of him anyways. |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16176
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | It seems like Tennessee law prohibits it’s individuals from brandishing a weapon in public view while traveling in a vehicle. He is holding the gun near his face, so that is public view, by law. |
I think you're reading that wrong. I don't think he was in a parking area. |
So if you’re driving on an open road you can brandish a weapon in open view? I don’t think it matters if you are in a parking area or not. |
Yeah, you're right, it doesn't matter.
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The Tennessee law quoted can be broken down into 2 parts:
| Quote: | 1) "concealed carry or openly carry a handgun" - which means the gun is on your body or in close proximity to your body.
2) "transported and stored in a vehicle" - which means, not on your body, but somewhere in the car |
1) The first part of the law states:
| Quote: | | Yes, anyone who is not otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm and is in lawful possession of the motor vehicle may concealed carry or openly carry a handgun. |
So, this part is not limited to only parking lots. This is anywhere, on roads, anywhere. Openly carry is what Morant did.
2) The second part of the law deals with the "transported and stored in a vehicle" part (which means the gun is no longer on your body. It's somewhere "stored" in the car):
| Quote: | | In addition, unless expressly prohibited by federal law, firearms may be transported and stored in a vehicle while on or utilizing any public or private parking area if: |
Notice the words "in addition"...
And this part only deals with parking lots. I guess what this law is saying is, while driving, you can transport the guns/ammo anyway you want to. But, once you get to a parking lot, you have to store the guns/ammo in a certain way.
And here are the guidelines for transporting/storing guns/ammo in your car while in a parking lot:
| Quote: | A) The motor vehicle is parked in a location where the motor vehicle is permitted to be;
AND
B) The firearm or ammunition being transported or stored in the motor vehicle:
1) Is kept from ordinary observation if the person is in the motor vehicle; or
2) Is kept from ordinary observation and locked within the trunk, glove box or interior of the person's motor vehicle or a container securely affixed to the motor vehicle if the person is not in the motor vehicle.
[Tennessee Code Annotated § 39-17-1307(g) and § 39-17-1313(a)] |
Since Morant had the gun on his body, he falls under the "open carry" category, which is only part 1 of the law. And so you're right, open carry in a vehicle has no restrictions on whether it's on the road or in a parking lot.
Basically, according to this law, if Morant was sitting in the parking lot of Walmart holding the gun, he's ok (open carry).
But, if the gun (or even ammo) was in the backseat of the car where people can see, he'd be in violation of the law (NOT kept from ordinary observation if the person is in the motor vehicle)
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Now, we have to analyze if Morant broke any laws with the way he "openly carried" the gun, in other words, brandishing:
| Quote: | Does Tennessee state law define brandishing?
No definition of brandishing was found in Tennessee law.
However, a person commits an offense who, in a public place and with intent to cause public annoyance or alarm, engages in fighting or in violent or threatening behavior.
[Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-305] |
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/tn-gun-laws/
So yeah, Morant could be in violation if he was pointing the gun in a threatening way in public, but he wasn't. So he won't fall under this law either.
So putting these 2 laws together, Tennessee allows you to openly carry (brandish) a gun while in a moving vehicle on a public road, as long as you're not brandishing it in a threatening, violent, menacing way. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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Joined: 29 Mar 2012
Posts: 21510
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | ^^^^
I was referring to what you quoted:
| Quote: | Yes, anyone who is not otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm and is in lawful possession of the motor vehicle may concealed carry or openly carry a handgun. In addition, unless expressly prohibited by federal law, firearms may be transported and stored in a vehicle while on or utilizing any public or private parking area if:
The motor vehicle is parked in a location where the motor vehicle is permitted to be; and
The firearm or ammunition being transported or stored in the motor vehicle:
Is kept from ordinary observation if the person is in the motor vehicle; or
Is kept from ordinary observation and locked within the trunk, glove box or interior of the person's motor vehicle or a container securely affixed to the motor vehicle if the person is not in the motor vehicle. |
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Okay, I see that now. Yeah its worded unusually because it says a gun being transported in a parking area.
I looked at the video again, and it looks like the car is parked in front a of a residential home. A pretty nice looking one as well. It looks very similar to Ja's house, from the little bit you can see. There is a garage door and exterior sconces visible. So it's likely he is parked in front of his own house, and you can only see him holding the gun if you freeze frame the video at a specific spot. If you watch it in real time, or even slow motion, you can't really see it. Silver has a tough decision to make, I can see the argument either way. I'm glad it's not a decision I have to make.
Still Shot
Still Shot |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16799
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | ^^^^
I was referring to what you quoted:
| Quote: | Yes, anyone who is not otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm and is in lawful possession of the motor vehicle may concealed carry or openly carry a handgun. In addition, unless expressly prohibited by federal law, firearms may be transported and stored in a vehicle while on or utilizing any public or private parking area if:
The motor vehicle is parked in a location where the motor vehicle is permitted to be; and
The firearm or ammunition being transported or stored in the motor vehicle:
Is kept from ordinary observation if the person is in the motor vehicle; or
Is kept from ordinary observation and locked within the trunk, glove box or interior of the person's motor vehicle or a container securely affixed to the motor vehicle if the person is not in the motor vehicle. |
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Okay, I see that now. Yeah its worded unusually because it says a gun being transported in a parking area.
I looked at the video again, and it looks like the car is parked in front a of a residential home. A pretty nice looking one as well. It looks very similar to Ja's house, from the little bit you can see. There is a garage door and exterior sconces visible. So it's likely he is parked in front of his own house, and you can only see him holding the gun if you freeze frame the video at a specific spot. If you watch it in real time, or even slow motion, you can't really see it. Silver has a tough decision to make, I can see the argument either way. I'm glad it's not a decision I have to make.
Still Shot
Still Shot |
Nothing should happen to him from league perspective. Team? Sure. Pay him not to be there but this is the culture. Trade him or figure out how to tolerate him.
_________________
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16176
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | Nothing should happen to him from league perspective. Team? Sure. Pay him not to be there but this is the culture. Trade him or figure out how to tolerate him. |
I think the discussion is more about what WILL happen to him rather than what SHOULD happen to him.
And I think he WILL get a long suspension. |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16799
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Nothing should happen to him from league perspective. Team? Sure. Pay him not to be there but this is the culture. Trade him or figure out how to tolerate him. |
I think the discussion is more about what WILL happen to him rather than what SHOULD happen to him.
And I think he WILL get a long suspension. |
I personally think that’s wrong. Too bad the players association isn’t as strong as the nfls.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144475
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Yes, when you are given a second chance and you thumb your nose at it, the league won’t appreciate it.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16799
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Yes, when you are given a second chance and you thumb your nose at it, the league won’t appreciate it. |
Barely showing a gun in a parked car seemingly in front of his house is a far cry from pulling it out in another state in a gentleman’s club.
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16176
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Nothing should happen to him from league perspective. Team? Sure. Pay him not to be there but this is the culture. Trade him or figure out how to tolerate him. |
I think the discussion is more about what WILL happen to him rather than what SHOULD happen to him.
And I think he WILL get a long suspension. |
I personally think that’s wrong. Too bad the players association isn’t as strong as the nfls. |
NFL probably has the weakest PA.
I think it goes:
| Quote: | 1) MLBPA
2) NBAPA
3) NFLPA |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16799
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Nothing should happen to him from league perspective. Team? Sure. Pay him not to be there but this is the culture. Trade him or figure out how to tolerate him. |
I think the discussion is more about what WILL happen to him rather than what SHOULD happen to him.
And I think he WILL get a long suspension. |
I personally think that’s wrong. Too bad the players association isn’t as strong as the nfls. |
NFL probably has the weakest PA.
I think it goes:
| Quote: | 1) MLBPA
2) NBAPA
3) NFLPA |
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Maybe I’m bias since I work with all 3.
_________________
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | ^^^^
I was referring to what you quoted:
| Quote: | Yes, anyone who is not otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm and is in lawful possession of the motor vehicle may concealed carry or openly carry a handgun. In addition, unless expressly prohibited by federal law, firearms may be transported and stored in a vehicle while on or utilizing any public or private parking area if:
The motor vehicle is parked in a location where the motor vehicle is permitted to be; and
The firearm or ammunition being transported or stored in the motor vehicle:
Is kept from ordinary observation if the person is in the motor vehicle; or
Is kept from ordinary observation and locked within the trunk, glove box or interior of the person's motor vehicle or a container securely affixed to the motor vehicle if the person is not in the motor vehicle. |
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Okay, I see that now. Yeah its worded unusually because it says a gun being transported in a parking area.
I looked at the video again, and it looks like the car is parked in front a of a residential home. A pretty nice looking one as well. It looks very similar to Ja's house, from the little bit you can see. There is a garage door and exterior sconces visible. So it's likely he is parked in front of his own house, and you can only see him holding the gun if you freeze frame the video at a specific spot. If you watch it in real time, or even slow motion, you can't really see it. Silver has a tough decision to make, I can see the argument either way. I'm glad it's not a decision I have to make.
Still Shot
Still Shot |
I ran down the actual statute.
https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-39/chapter-17/part-13/section-39-17-1313/
It's a little bit odd, because it doesn't actually make anything illegal. Instead, it overrides local ordinances and other laws. Then it has a convoluted definition of "parking area." I'm not sure how to interpret that statute.
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16176
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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This article explains how Tennessee makes the distinction between "carry" vs. "transporting and storing" gun laws (in motor vehicles):
1) Carry: openly or concealed
| Quote: | Tennessee does not require a permit to carry an openly or concealed handgun in public.
Tennessee also expressly allows a person to carry any firearm, loaded or unloaded, in a lawfully possessed motor vehicle or boat if he or she is not prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm. |
2) Transporting and storing:
| Quote: | Tennessee expressly forbids any law or any ordinance or resolution adopted by the governing body of a city, county, or metropolitan government that prohibits or regulates the possession, transportation, or storage of a firearm or firearm ammunition while on or utilizing any public or private parking area.
The person’s motor vehicle must be parked in a location where it is permitted to be; and the firearm or ammunition being transported or stored in the motor vehicle must be kept from ordinary observation if the person is in the motor vehicle; or kept from ordinary observation and locked within the trunk, glove box, or interior of the person’s motor vehicle or a container securely affixed to the motor vehicle if the person is not in the motor vehicle.
Tennessee law prohibits public post-secondary institutions from taking any adverse or disciplinary action against an employee or student of that institution solely for such person’s transportation and storage of a firearm or firearm ammunition in compliance with state law while on or using a parking area located on property owned, used, or operated by the post-secondary institution.
Tennessee law also restricts employers from prohibiting their employees from transporting or storing a firearm or firearm ammunition in an employer parking area if the firearm or ammunition is otherwise lawfully stored in compliance with the section above.
LINK |
So yeah, Morant with a gun in his hand is considered an open carry. Doesn't matter if he was in a parking area or on the road.
The parking lot only factors in if he was transporting or storing the gun.
So him being parked in front of his house, or moving on a highway isn't relevant. |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16799
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | This article explains how Tennessee makes the distinction between "carry" vs. "transporting and storing" gun laws (in motor vehicles):
1) Carry: openly or concealed
| Quote: | Tennessee does not require a permit to carry an openly or concealed handgun in public.
Tennessee also expressly allows a person to carry any firearm, loaded or unloaded, in a lawfully possessed motor vehicle or boat if he or she is not prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm. |
2) Transporting and storing:
| Quote: | Tennessee expressly forbids any law or any ordinance or resolution adopted by the governing body of a city, county, or metropolitan government that prohibits or regulates the possession, transportation, or storage of a firearm or firearm ammunition while on or utilizing any public or private parking area.
The person’s motor vehicle must be parked in a location where it is permitted to be; and the firearm or ammunition being transported or stored in the motor vehicle must be kept from ordinary observation if the person is in the motor vehicle; or kept from ordinary observation and locked within the trunk, glove box, or interior of the person’s motor vehicle or a container securely affixed to the motor vehicle if the person is not in the motor vehicle.
Tennessee law prohibits public post-secondary institutions from taking any adverse or disciplinary action against an employee or student of that institution solely for such person’s transportation and storage of a firearm or firearm ammunition in compliance with state law while on or using a parking area located on property owned, used, or operated by the post-secondary institution.
Tennessee law also restricts employers from prohibiting their employees from transporting or storing a firearm or firearm ammunition in an employer parking area if the firearm or ammunition is otherwise lawfully stored in compliance with the section above.
LINK |
So yeah, Morant with a gun in his hand is considered an open carry. Doesn't matter if he was in a parking area or on the road.
The parking lot only factors in if he was transporting or storing the gun.
So him being parked in front of his house, or moving on a highway isn't relevant. |
So he did nothing wrong other than make people uncomfortable with his culture.
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16176
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | So he did nothing wrong other than make people uncomfortable with his culture. |
He did nothing illegal, that's correct. |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16799
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | So he did nothing wrong other than make people uncomfortable with his culture. |
He did nothing illegal, that's correct. |
Or wrong. Again that’s his culture. His apology sounds like he’s just as shocked as the people fake outraging over it.
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | So he did nothing wrong other than make people uncomfortable with his culture. |
He did nothing illegal, that's correct. |
Or wrong. Again that’s his culture. His apology sounds like he’s just as shocked as the people fake outraging over it. |
Well, for sure he did nothing illegal |
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nevitt_smrek
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 2803
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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The usual loud mouths like Popovich and Kerr are interestingly silent of this behavior. The criticism only goes so far. Once it start hitting their pocket books, zip their lips.
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16176
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2023 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I don't want to dive too deeply into this, but there are legitimate questions as to whether the NBA can do anything when there is no connection to team activities. |
Seems like these "legitimate questions" have been answered for us. The NBA has suspended Ja Morant for 25 games eventhough there's NO CONNECTION to team activities....
......................................
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | This is a unionized workforce, so there are constraints on what the NBA can do. The Grizzlies may have a better argument for taking disciplinary action. But again, I don't want to get too deep into this issue, because it would require an analysis of the CBA (the old one), the NBA Constitution and By-Laws, and federal labor law. That's just too much effort to be worth it. |
This analysis is no longer needed. The NBA did dive deeply for us, analyzed the CBA, the NBA Consitutiion and By-Laws, and federal labor laws and came out with a 25 game suspension, as was predicted by most people in here....
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | The NBA suspended him last time for 8 games for "conduct detrimental to the league."
There's already a precedent.
I'm assuming they at least looked into an "analysis of the CBA (the old one), the NBA Constitution and By-Laws, and federal labor law."
Either that or they too thought it was "just too much effort to be worth it."
What would be the difference this time that is not "conduct detrimental to the league" but it was last time? |
Let's start with the fact that an eight-game suspension is not subject to a grievance under the CBA. The threshold is twelve games or $50,000. Once a disciplinary action crosses that threshold, we're in a whole different world.
Edit: I wrote that from memory. I would need to pull up the CBA and check the exact threshold. That's more trouble than it's worth. The important point is that, if there is some sort of lengthy suspension, there will be a grievance, and the league will need to convince an arbitrator to let it stand. |
Let's see how this prediction plays out. I'd say there will be no grievance filed by Morant.
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | ^^^^
No, I just gave you part of the answer. That's why I said "Let's start with." I am not going to take the time to find answers to all of the questions raised by this situation. What I'm telling you is that anything over 12 games or $50,000 (or something like that), is subject to a union grievance. Whether the league has the power to do anything at all is a different question, and I'm not going to take the time to figure it out. |
Yup, and again, they suspended him for 25 games. Let's see if Morant files a grievance as you predicted WILL happen.
......................................
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | You are talking about two separate things. Ja can have his rights but he also signed an employment contract with the NBA. His employment might subject him to punishment if his behavior violates the terms of his contract. |
It's a little more nuanced than that. I can explain the general structure. There's a standard player contract, which I've read in the past. It does not contain anything that covers this sort of situation, but it requires a player to follow team rules and it incorporates the section of the NBA Constitution that allows the Commissioner to impose discipline for things like gambling and conduct detrimental to the league.
There are complicated grievance rules for player discipline. My recollection is that there is a 12 game/$50,000 threshold (or whatever the exact numbers are) for a full blown union grievance. I think that there are some other provisions for cases below the threshold, but I'd need to go read the CBA. There may be limits on what the Commissioner can deem to be conduct detrimental to the league, and there may be limits on the scope and effectiveness of team rules.
From time to time over the years, I've had occasion to examine some of these issues outside of the context of sports. Suffice it to say that there are few, if any, "one size fits all" answers to these questions. |
Looks like it wasn't as "nuanced" as was predicted. All this "'splaining" was needless.......
Bottom line:
| Quote: | Gun incident #1: 8 game suspension for conduct detrimental to the league
Gun incident #2: 25 game suspension for conduct detrimental to the league |
Pretty easy to predict.... |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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Joined: 29 Mar 2012
Posts: 21510
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| This seems to be on the lower end of what people were predicting. I saw a lot of people predicting 40 games. |
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LongBeachPoly
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Posts: 16176
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | This seems to be on the lower end of what people were predicting. I saw a lot of people predicting 40 games. |
Yup
But most said at least 25.
I think the NBA settled with him at 25 with a promise he won’t fight/appeal it. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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Posts: 21510
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Ja Morants salary is listed at $33.5M. 25/82 is a $10.2M hit. I wonder how much he pays the guy who started the IG live. |
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jodeke
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Posts: 67764
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Dec 19th is the return date for Ja. He's been practicing with the second unit on a daily basis. Will Jenkins start him or bring him off the bench?
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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jodeke
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Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Ja returns to the 94x50 hardwood tonight. I'm anxious to see how much of his game is on point. He's a special talent. I hope he has his head in the right place and has learned a lesson. He didn't break any civil law he broke the NBA law. I wish him well.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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jodeke
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Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Ja's return was storybook. It didn't look like he lost a step. He played 35MIN 34PT 12-24FG He hit the game winner. Ja's back.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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waterman40
Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 6287
Location: Central Coast
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:25 am Post subject: |
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It's what he does when he is off the court is the problem, can he keep from handling firearms and being filmed?
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