If Myles Turner Wants a Trade, What Are the Lakers Waiting For?
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Hanging from Rafters
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:19 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
I don't understand why people say Turner would space the floor for us. He hasn't shot at least 35% from downtown in four seasons, and he's shot over 36% percent just once in his seven full seasons in the NBA.


They are saying he’d space the floor compared to other centers we’ve had like…Dwight, Harrell, Drummond, DJordan…not that he would solve 3pt shooting needs. So yea, Turner would space the floor.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:51 pm    Post subject:

He's a 35% shooter on his career from three. For a center, that is good.

The notable three point shooting centers:

KAT: Career 39.6%, high 42.1%, takes 4.1 per game
Porzingis: Career 35.3%, high 39.5%, takes 5 per game
Turner: Career 35%, high 38.8%, takes 2.6 per game, but in recent years around 4.2
Jokic: Career 34.4%, high 39.6%, takes 2.9 per game
Lopez: Career 34.2%, high 37.5%, takes 2.3 per game, around 5 in recent years
Embiid: Career 33.7%, high 37.7%, takes 3.5 per game.

If it weren't for injury concerns, it would be a no brainer. The guy is an elite shot blocker (led league twice), a good all around defender, mobile, and can stretch the floor.

Also a note on his injuries. In his rookie year he was a teen and some of his DNPs were related to that. Since then, he has played in a total of 376 out of 483 games (77.8%). So with a normal 82 game season you could expect him to generally play 64 games per season, and miss 18. So it is a concern, but probably not as bad as it looks if you glance at his career stats, because two of those seasons were shortened due to Covid.


Last edited by J.C. Smith on Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:54 pm    Post subject:

Hanging from Rafters wrote:
slavavov wrote:
I don't understand why people say Turner would space the floor for us. He hasn't shot at least 35% from downtown in four seasons, and he's shot over 36% percent just once in his seven full seasons in the NBA.


They are saying he’d space the floor compared to other centers we’ve had like…Dwight, Harrell, Drummond, DJordan…not that he would solve 3pt shooting needs. So yea, Turner would space the floor.


Not advocating for Turner nor against him, but wanted to add that I think a lot of people conflate 3 point % and the real capacity of being an offensive spacer.

Scenario, the center is standing out at the 3 point line:

    Spacing not good especially with certain combos on the floor - Capela, Green, Bam, Gobert, Zubac, Ayton, AD, Sabonis, guys who really cant shoot the 3 even if open and won't even try to shoot it very much = Coach/Strategy says "we'll live with that, go ahead and sag off, mostly go under all perimeter screens, etc"

    Spacing is mostly a factor - Brooke, Turner, Horford, Valanciunas, Siakam, Vucevic, guys who historically are 30+ % from 3, shoot a good amount of them and have and some rep for making them in strings = Coach/Strategy says "Probably won't kill us from 3 as a general rule but don't sag off too into paint too much. If he gets hot we have send multiple defenders"

    Spacing is definitely a factor - Porky, Olynyk+Lauri, Jokic, Embiid, KAT or Zion when playing center, guys with a rep of putting up 20+ points quickly if you don't guard them out to the 3 = Coach/Strategy says "Go over all screens, blitz with multiple players and don't ever leave him open from 3 as a general rule"


So, Lakers could definitely use an upgrade in "spacing ability" at the 4/5 cause with this AD + this LBJ, opponents are just completely ignoring the 3 ball from the Laker bigs which makes everything more difficult and clunky offensively.

That said, and as you can see, there aren't that many decent 3 point shooting bigs and you often trade off that spacing ability for poor defense on the other end... it's really a crapshoot but it seems like the Lakers would be better off record-wise having more of an offensive threat than a mediocre to decent defense. (spoiler: a team with this AD + this LBJ is not going to be elite defensively at all)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:55 pm    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
Do you want to give up our last remaining assets for another injury proned guy? STOP CHASING AFTER STARS!!

No I don’t.

The Lakers have a long term problem and people want to solve it with short term solutions that won’t bring championships. Mgmt won’t admit they can’t construct or win a championship with any of the assets they have and we’ve heard them say “fans expect championships.”

It’s clear that fans here just want to see some good shooting and dunks now and then, instead of rooting for this 2-8 talent level squad. However, as I watch valuable young players the Lakers could have had before trading away picks, it’s clear to me that moving and wasting further assets to chase after something they’ll never get isn’t the answer. The Lakers created a problem that has no solution except the patience they and Lakers fans lack.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:30 am    Post subject:

lakersboy wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
Do you want to give up our last remaining assets for another injury proned guy? STOP CHASING AFTER STARS!!

No I don’t.

The Lakers have a long term problem and people want to solve it with short term solutions that won’t bring championships. Mgmt won’t admit they can’t construct or win a championship with any of the assets they have and we’ve heard them say “fans expect championships.”

It’s clear that fans here just want to see some good shooting and dunks now and then, instead of rooting for this 2-8 talent level squad. However, as I watch valuable young players the Lakers could have had before trading away picks, it’s clear to me that moving and wasting further assets to chase after something they’ll never get isn’t the answer. The Lakers created a problem that has no solution except the patience they and Lakers fans lack.


The problem you outline is correct and even worse than that...the long term problem is the owner and GM. It's likely that as long as they are in control the team wll be an embarrassment...not just lose, or not compete, but perform embarrassingly.

We don't want to just see some good shooting and dunks now and then...we want to see an team that is not an embarrassment.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:23 am    Post subject:

Time for a rebuild.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:14 pm    Post subject:

ElginBaylor wrote:
Time for a rebuild.


I would agree but who's gonna do the rebuilding? If it's the same group that did the current roster construction...resulting in missing the post season even with the expanded 10 team play-in last year and second worst team in the league so far this year then...no thanks.

I can't imagine any reality likely to happen that will keep the Lakers from being an embarrassment to the NBA and fans for the next 8-12 years.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:09 pm    Post subject:

Laker_Jocker wrote:
Hanging from Rafters wrote:
slavavov wrote:
I don't understand why people say Turner would space the floor for us. He hasn't shot at least 35% from downtown in four seasons, and he's shot over 36% percent just once in his seven full seasons in the NBA.


They are saying he’d space the floor compared to other centers we’ve had like…Dwight, Harrell, Drummond, DJordan…not that he would solve 3pt shooting needs. So yea, Turner would space the floor.


Not advocating for Turner nor against him, but wanted to add that I think a lot of people conflate 3 point % and the real capacity of being an offensive spacer.

Scenario, the center is standing out at the 3 point line:

    Spacing not good especially with certain combos on the floor - Capela, Green, Bam, Gobert, Zubac, Ayton, AD, Sabonis, guys who really cant shoot the 3 even if open and won't even try to shoot it very much = Coach/Strategy says "we'll live with that, go ahead and sag off, mostly go under all perimeter screens, etc"

    Spacing is mostly a factor - Brooke, Turner, Horford, Valanciunas, Siakam, Vucevic, guys who historically are 30+ % from 3, shoot a good amount of them and have and some rep for making them in strings = Coach/Strategy says "Probably won't kill us from 3 as a general rule but don't sag off too into paint too much. If he gets hot we have send multiple defenders"

    Spacing is definitely a factor - Porky, Olynyk+Lauri, Jokic, Embiid, KAT or Zion when playing center, guys with a rep of putting up 20+ points quickly if you don't guard them out to the 3 = Coach/Strategy says "Go over all screens, blitz with multiple players and don't ever leave him open from 3 as a general rule"


So, Lakers could definitely use an upgrade in "spacing ability" at the 4/5 cause with this AD + this LBJ, opponents are just completely ignoring the 3 ball from the Laker bigs which makes everything more difficult and clunky offensively.

That said, and as you can see, there aren't that many decent 3 point shooting bigs and you often trade off that spacing ability for poor defense on the other end... it's really a crapshoot but it seems like the Lakers would be better off record-wise having more of an offensive threat than a mediocre to decent defense. (spoiler: a team with this AD + this LBJ is not going to be elite defensively at all)

Turner is not a consistent shooting threat, so why would other teams not want to leave him open when he has shot under 35% from downtown the last three years?

So far this season he's at 37%, but he's played only seven games. He's had a great shooting game followed by one when he went 0-3 or 0-4. He probably wouldn't be of any real help for our outside shooting, and when he's not hitting 3s (which is often), his man can play off him and load up the paint.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:28 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
Laker_Jocker wrote:
Hanging from Rafters wrote:
slavavov wrote:
I don't understand why people say Turner would space the floor for us. He hasn't shot at least 35% from downtown in four seasons, and he's shot over 36% percent just once in his seven full seasons in the NBA.


They are saying he’d space the floor compared to other centers we’ve had like…Dwight, Harrell, Drummond, DJordan…not that he would solve 3pt shooting needs. So yea, Turner would space the floor.


Not advocating for Turner nor against him, but wanted to add that I think a lot of people conflate 3 point % and the real capacity of being an offensive spacer.

Scenario, the center is standing out at the 3 point line:

    Spacing not good especially with certain combos on the floor - Capela, Green, Bam, Gobert, Zubac, Ayton, AD, Sabonis, guys who really cant shoot the 3 even if open and won't even try to shoot it very much = Coach/Strategy says "we'll live with that, go ahead and sag off, mostly go under all perimeter screens, etc"

    Spacing is mostly a factor - Brooke, Turner, Horford, Valanciunas, Siakam, Vucevic, guys who historically are 30+ % from 3, shoot a good amount of them and have and some rep for making them in strings = Coach/Strategy says "Probably won't kill us from 3 as a general rule but don't sag off too into paint too much. If he gets hot we have send multiple defenders"

    Spacing is definitely a factor - Porky, Olynyk+Lauri, Jokic, Embiid, KAT or Zion when playing center, guys with a rep of putting up 20+ points quickly if you don't guard them out to the 3 = Coach/Strategy says "Go over all screens, blitz with multiple players and don't ever leave him open from 3 as a general rule"


So, Lakers could definitely use an upgrade in "spacing ability" at the 4/5 cause with this AD + this LBJ, opponents are just completely ignoring the 3 ball from the Laker bigs which makes everything more difficult and clunky offensively.

That said, and as you can see, there aren't that many decent 3 point shooting bigs and you often trade off that spacing ability for poor defense on the other end... it's really a crapshoot but it seems like the Lakers would be better off record-wise having more of an offensive threat than a mediocre to decent defense. (spoiler: a team with this AD + this LBJ is not going to be elite defensively at all)

Turner is not a consistent shooting threat, so why would other teams not want to leave him open when he has shot under 35% from downtown the last three years?

So far this season he's at 37%, but he's played only seven games. He's had a great shooting game followed by one when he went 0-3 or 0-4. He probably wouldn't be of any real help for our outside shooting, and when he's not hitting 3s (which is often), his man can play off him and load up the paint.


Laker_Jocker answered this exact question in the post and you are doing the first thing outlined in the post - conflating shooting percentage with spacing ability.

Brook Lopez was a great example by Laker_Jocker. 31%, 33%, 34%, etc. from 3pt over the past several seasons.

As you note, Turner is similar in regards to 3pt percentage. So, yes, Turner may not be a threat like Buddy Hield, but teams respect him enough to not leave him absolutely wide open. That spacing ability is what we're talking about. And if a team dares him to shoot, then Turner has shown that he has enough capability to make opponents pay every now and again.

Most importantly, it's how defenses approach the player. And we've seen Turner pull the defenses out to contest his jumper.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 5:29 am    Post subject:

I think that it has chance to work because we also have AD and we can then put AD in the dunker spot in 4-1 setups or post him up which will limit double ups with another capable shooter.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:00 pm    Post subject:

ArminNBA wrote:
As you note, Turner is similar in regards to 3pt percentage. So, yes, Turner may not be a threat like Buddy Hield, but teams respect him enough to not leave him absolutely wide open. That spacing ability is what we're talking about.


One step can make a big difference.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:51 pm    Post subject:

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The Clippers have discussed the possibility of trading for Myles Turner, per B/R’s
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:31 pm    Post subject:

ArminNBA wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Laker_Jocker wrote:
Hanging from Rafters wrote:
slavavov wrote:
I don't understand why people say Turner would space the floor for us. He hasn't shot at least 35% from downtown in four seasons, and he's shot over 36% percent just once in his seven full seasons in the NBA.


They are saying he’d space the floor compared to other centers we’ve had like…Dwight, Harrell, Drummond, DJordan…not that he would solve 3pt shooting needs. So yea, Turner would space the floor.


Not advocating for Turner nor against him, but wanted to add that I think a lot of people conflate 3 point % and the real capacity of being an offensive spacer.

Scenario, the center is standing out at the 3 point line:

    Spacing not good especially with certain combos on the floor - Capela, Green, Bam, Gobert, Zubac, Ayton, AD, Sabonis, guys who really cant shoot the 3 even if open and won't even try to shoot it very much = Coach/Strategy says "we'll live with that, go ahead and sag off, mostly go under all perimeter screens, etc"

    Spacing is mostly a factor - Brooke, Turner, Horford, Valanciunas, Siakam, Vucevic, guys who historically are 30+ % from 3, shoot a good amount of them and have and some rep for making them in strings = Coach/Strategy says "Probably won't kill us from 3 as a general rule but don't sag off too into paint too much. If he gets hot we have send multiple defenders"

    Spacing is definitely a factor - Porky, Olynyk+Lauri, Jokic, Embiid, KAT or Zion when playing center, guys with a rep of putting up 20+ points quickly if you don't guard them out to the 3 = Coach/Strategy says "Go over all screens, blitz with multiple players and don't ever leave him open from 3 as a general rule"


So, Lakers could definitely use an upgrade in "spacing ability" at the 4/5 cause with this AD + this LBJ, opponents are just completely ignoring the 3 ball from the Laker bigs which makes everything more difficult and clunky offensively.

That said, and as you can see, there aren't that many decent 3 point shooting bigs and you often trade off that spacing ability for poor defense on the other end... it's really a crapshoot but it seems like the Lakers would be better off record-wise having more of an offensive threat than a mediocre to decent defense. (spoiler: a team with this AD + this LBJ is not going to be elite defensively at all)

Turner is not a consistent shooting threat, so why would other teams not want to leave him open when he has shot under 35% from downtown the last three years?

So far this season he's at 37%, but he's played only seven games. He's had a great shooting game followed by one when he went 0-3 or 0-4. He probably wouldn't be of any real help for our outside shooting, and when he's not hitting 3s (which is often), his man can play off him and load up the paint.


Laker_Jocker answered this exact question in the post and you are doing the first thing outlined in the post - conflating shooting percentage with spacing ability.

Brook Lopez was a great example by Laker_Jocker. 31%, 33%, 34%, etc. from 3pt over the past several seasons.

As you note, Turner is similar in regards to 3pt percentage. So, yes, Turner may not be a threat like Buddy Hield, but teams respect him enough to not leave him absolutely wide open. That spacing ability is what we're talking about. And if a team dares him to shoot, then Turner has shown that he has enough capability to make opponents pay every now and again.

Most importantly, it's how defenses approach the player. And we've seen Turner pull the defenses out to contest his jumper.

Of course shooting percentage is different from spacing ability. But even if defenses will stick to Turner like glue, he won't do a thing to improve our 3-point shooting percentage. In fact, he may even hurt us since he shoots a below average percentage and takes about four a game. Hield would absolutely help there, but adding a great shooter like him and a mediocre/lackluster shooter like Turner wouldn't be nearly enough.

The other thing is that a Hield/Turner trade does absolutely nothing to address our lack of depth at the forward position, but it would likely eliminate our only real trade chip in Russ and future first-round draft picks. If we made that trade, how would we get our hands on that 6-8, 6-9 3-and-D power forward we need so much?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:44 pm    Post subject:

^ sticking like glue or simply forcing the D to move toward a respectable 3 point shooting big necessarily improves passing lanes/flow and opens the lane for 2 point attempts for slashing wings which improves the overall offense (and ability to score more points than the opponent in order to win).

Again, I am not saying a trade for this particular guy (Turner) is the answer but if you watch the end of game half court offense, it is clunky and inefficient based on the fact that they can’t space the floor with LBJ at 4 and AD at 5.

Hield probably would help with spacing but a forward or center (like either of the Morris twins) is huge because it spreads the floor and clears the lane much more than that of a guard covered by other guards.

I personally think they should not try to solve this problem for any of what has been reported to be available. Gotta get past WB/LBJ without any further long term damage. The unsavory fact is that they probably should eat this season, hold on to all picks, sell as high as possible on AD (maybe get a pick back if possible) and start planning for a real rebuild in 2023-2024 or at most 2024-2025. AD is a really good player but as he sits today he is a fragile 5 or a 4 that can’t shoot well enough to not bog down the offense when it really counts - thus my comment on spacing with this roster.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:29 am    Post subject:

lakersboy wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
Do you want to give up our last remaining assets for another injury proned guy? STOP CHASING AFTER STARS!!

No I don’t.

The Lakers have a long term problem and people want to solve it with short term solutions that won’t bring championships. Mgmt won’t admit they can’t construct or win a championship with any of the assets they have and we’ve heard them say “fans expect championships.”

It’s clear that fans here just want to see some good shooting and dunks now and then, instead of rooting for this 2-8 talent level squad. However, as I watch valuable young players the Lakers could have had before trading away picks, it’s clear to me that moving and wasting further assets to chase after something they’ll never get isn’t the answer. The Lakers created a problem that has no solution except the patience they and Lakers fans lack.


Yup! No FRP should be traded for Turner unless top 15 protected. It would be pretty dumb to trade some of our few remaining assets for an oft injured rental that Indy hasn’t been able to move for a few seasons. Especially when we’re talking the difference between us winning 20 vs 25 games lol.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:19 pm    Post subject:

ElginBaylor wrote:
Time for a rebuild.
Yup with youth and a long term vision. Not this focus on instant gratification FA's. Too bad we got rid of so many draft picks. Shame.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:10 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
ElginBaylor wrote:
Time for a rebuild.
Yup with youth and a long term vision. Not this focus on instant gratification FA's. Too bad we got rid of so many draft picks. Shame.
Laker fans have no patience for a rebuild - period, as history has shown/confirmed many times
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:01 am    Post subject:

League has tilted the leverage towards small owners such that the guys entering their prime we would historically target are so far financially incentivized to stay with their draft team that it’s uphill.

Once upon a time ago, we get a Shaq after 4 years with his draft team. In todays era, we wouldn’t be able to acquire Shaq without an insane number of picks young talent at the same time in his career.

Fans expectations have not adjusted to these CBA changes. Most fans don’t even know the basics of the CBA. Laker Nation will have to adjust to the fact that we simply don’t have the same competitive advantages as a business we once did.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:46 am    Post subject:

ahaider wrote:
League has tilted the leverage towards small owners such that the guys entering their prime we would historically target are so far financially incentivized to stay with their draft team that it’s uphill.

Once upon a time ago, we get a Shaq after 4 years with his draft team. In todays era, we wouldn’t be able to acquire Shaq without an insane number of picks young talent at the same time in his career.

Fans expectations have not adjusted to these CBA changes. Most fans don’t even know the basics of the CBA. Laker Nation will have to adjust to the fact that we simply don’t have the same competitive advantages as a business we once did.


True. More importantly certain Front Officers/Ownerships haven't adjusted to this new reality and updated their strategies/tactics.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:44 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
ElginBaylor wrote:
Time for a rebuild.
Yup with youth and a long term vision. Not this focus on instant gratification FA's. Too bad we got rid of so many draft picks. Shame.


It is NOT time for a rebuild. The Lakers don't control their next two FRPs. Even if the team finished dead last in the league and won the lottery ping pong balls to get the #1 pick both years...2023 and 2024...they would lose BOTH of the #1 picks in those drafts.

Even if the rebuild started this year it would likely be delayed at least until 2024 so the team might as well continue to try to win until then.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:50 am    Post subject:

Reviving this,

Miles had 31 last night and he and Buddy are the top two scorers (typically) every game (for the Pacers)..

On the season Miles is averaging just under 19ppg and 8rpg and Buddy is just under 18ppg and is at 37.6% for 3 point shots (which is HIGHER than all big-minutes players on the Lakers, except Reeves).

The only down side would be losing Westbrook, who is playing fine coming off the bench, but with LeBron back his minutes may go down some..

STARTERS:
C = Miles
PF = Davis
SF = LeBron
SG = Walker
PG = Schroder/Reeves

BENCH:
C = Bryant
PF = Gabriel
SF = Brown
SG = Hield/Reeves
PG = Beverly

Gets the Lakers at least to .500 and maybe nto the Playoffs......
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:52 am    Post subject:

Too late for Myles. They'd have better luck trading for Miles Morales at this point.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:40 am    Post subject:

Myles is focused because it’s a contract year and he wants to gtfo of Indiana.

Once he goes elsewhere, mediocre Myles will return.

First time I see him dunk in like 2 years
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:55 am    Post subject:

Hanging from Rafters wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
ElginBaylor wrote:
Time for a rebuild.
Yup with youth and a long term vision. Not this focus on instant gratification FA's. Too bad we got rid of so many draft picks. Shame.


It is NOT time for a rebuild. The Lakers don't control their next two FRPs. Even if the team finished dead last in the league and won the lottery ping pong balls to get the #1 pick both years...2023 and 2024...they would lose BOTH of the #1 picks in those drafts.

Even if the rebuild started this year it would likely be delayed at least until 2024 so the team might as well continue to try to win until then.


Makes complete sense.
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J.C. Smith
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12169

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:02 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Myles is focused because it’s a contract year and he wants to gtfo of Indiana.

Once he goes elsewhere, mediocre Myles will return.


We certainly have seen that a lot in the NBA. Where guys have career years in contract years, and then return to the earth the next season. That having been said, it's not just that.

The most obvious reason for his surge this year is that they traded Sabonis last season, after Turner was injured. Sabonis was a 19/12 big man, who was a more polished offensive player than Turner, and a better rebounder. Moving Sabonis automatically would equate to more touches for Turner (a career high 11 FGA this season, vs a 9.8 average) which equates to more points.

He's also shooting a higher percentage of his shots near the rim, than in seasons past where he was primarily spacing the floor. This season he's shooting a scorching 45.2% from three, but only taking 3.5 threes out of 11 shot attempts. Last year it was 4.4 threes on 9.4 attempts, the season before it was 4.4 threes on 9.2 attempts. This drives up his shooting percentage. Being the teams primary rebounder, drives up his rebound numbers.

It's not just Sabonis' departure though, they also lost Brogdon, Oladipo, and LaVert in the last season, replacing them with Buddy and Haliburton. Those guys were all 20 point scorers with the Pacers. Moving them has moved Turner up in the pecking order.

Quote:
First time I see him dunk in like 2 years


He's dunking on 11.4% of his attempts this season, which is a career high. A lot of that has to do with him playing closer to the basket. His career average is a dunk per 7.7% of attempts. That isn't anything out of the ordinary though, Embiid dunks on every 7.1% of his attempts. Sabonis dunked every 6.7% of his. Towns is at 8.1%. For fun, AD dunks on 14.6% of his attempts, and a whopping 17.5% over the past two seasons.
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