|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
LakerSD
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23798
|
 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Pelinka's job is tied to the relationship with Klutch, so how can he be truly criticized if his decisions aren't truly independent? |
Exactly. None of us know how much of these decisions are him vs. doing what Klutch demands.
Anyone pretending to know is lying. Rob and Klutch basically cover each other’s asses. Maybe that’s why he got the extension.
The only one that we know for sure is Lebron and AD took credit for bringing in Westbrook. They went on and on about it last offseason only to have it blow up in their face. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | How many GMs have the cachet (in normal circumstances) to say No to Lebron and AD demanding to have Westbrook on the team - or else. Not many, if any. |
You assume that Lebron and Davis "demanded" that Pelinka trade for Westbrook "or else." How do you know that this is actually true? Yes, Lebron and Davis wanted Westbrook. That seems to be clear. But it is a different matter to say that they forced Pelinka to make the trade and that Pelinka feared for his job if he didn't obey. That's a narrative (specifically, an anti-Lebron narrative), not something that we know to be true.
In fact, the insider reports from the time indicate that Pelinka and Jeanie were on board with the trade. Jeanie actually got on the phone with Ted Leonsis to sell him on the deal. Pelinka was somehow able to say "No" to Lebron when it came to Tyrone Lue and later when it came to moving Westbrook at the deadline. But you think he couldn't have said "No" six months earlier?
So what's the real truth here? We may never know. I agree with AV that trying to apportion blame is a futility. I look at the overall performance of the front office while Pelinka has been the GM. Despite the title, the performance has been poor. We shouldn't assess a GM's performance based on one season that produces a result that is an outlier. GMs should be assessed on a broader basis. From that perspective, Pelinka really needs to up his game.
_________________
Internet Argument Resolved |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oaktown_dimond
Star Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 1364
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| believe me, i'm NO Rob homer... is he the best GM? NO!... he doesn't have the experience. but let's make no mistake, the dude is smart, he's not an idiot. he can learn on the fly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vasashi17+
Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2019
Posts: 5651
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| oaktown_dimond wrote: | | believe me, i'm NO Rob homer... is he the best GM? NO!... he doesn't have the experience. but let's make no mistake, the dude is smart, he's not an idiot. he can learn on the fly. |
So fake it till you make it?
I think it’s appropriate this Rob thread has a “con” in the title, cause that’s what he is. There has been precedence where sports agents have gone into the executive game and sustained success. Sustained being the key word here. Every team has different goals, but Jeanie has made no secret that ours is to win titles. In that regard, Rob’s been Won&done with a largely stained records thereafter as he learns on the job.
Meanwhile guys like Myers became assistant GMs first and once the apprentice has proven he can take the reigns over the operation, they usually make a splash in whatever their owners goals are.
Just go down the line of successful executives and they normally start off as scouts, assistants, etc before they take the lead over bball ops.
Co-sign on what @AH and @AV have said…Rob may get there one day, but dude ain’t it right now and certainly hasn’t shown it during his tenure. 10 years is what he is. essentially signed for, coming on in 2017 and his extension lasting till 2026. So maybe he gets there one day, but so far all we can make out if it, is dude is a fake.
_________________
Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
#GetFamiliar by CLICKING HERE! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| oaktown_dimond wrote: | | believe me, i'm NO Rob homer... is he the best GM? NO!... he doesn't have the experience. but let's make no mistake, the dude is smart, he's not an idiot. he can learn on the fly. |
There are a lot of really smart people who couldn't cut it as a GM in the NBA. We shall see whether Pelinka turns it around. However, if you think he can learn on the fly . . . well, let's just say that he has an awful lot of frequent flyer miles at this point. Learning on the fly made more sense in 2017 than 2022.
_________________
Internet Argument Resolved |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | oaktown_dimond wrote: | | believe me, i'm NO Rob homer... is he the best GM? NO!... he doesn't have the experience. but let's make no mistake, the dude is smart, he's not an idiot. he can learn on the fly. |
There are a lot of really smart people who couldn't cut it as a GM in the NBA. We shall see whether Pelinka turns it around. However, if you think he can learn on the fly . . . well, let's just say that he has an awful lot of frequent flyer miles at this point. Learning on the fly made more sense in 2017 than 2022. |
Exactly. If being "smart" was the only criteria for being a good GM, we should hire someone from Caltech.
Rob is beginning his 5th year in the job. Just as with a player, you can only ride on "potential" for so long. His actions haven't demonstrated to me that he is learning or improving. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A Mad Chinaman
Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6173
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | oaktown_dimond wrote: | | believe me, i'm NO Rob homer... is he the best GM? NO!... he doesn't have the experience. but let's make no mistake, the dude is smart, he's not an idiot. he can learn on the fly. |
There are a lot of really smart people who couldn't cut it as a GM in the NBA. We shall see whether Pelinka turns it around. However, if you think he can learn on the fly . . . well, let's just say that he has an awful lot of frequent flyer miles at this point. Learning on the fly made more sense in 2017 than 2022. |
Exactly. If being "smart" was the only criteria for being a good GM, we should hire someone from Caltech.
Rob is beginning his 5th year in the job. Just as with a player, you can only ride on "potential" for so long. His actions haven't demonstrated to me that he is learning or improving. |
Four former agents serving/served in high front office positions: Bob Myers (President of Basketball Operations, Golden State Warriors), Rob Pelinka (General Manager, Los Angeles Lakers), Arn Tellem (Vice Chairman, Detroit Pistons) and Justin Zanik of the Utah Jazz
Before the above-listed people - Jason Levien had a short stint as the Sacramento Kings’ assistant general manager in 2013 while Lon Babby had a six year run in Phoenix Suns
Myers was hired as the Warriors Assistant GM, but was quickly elevated to GM after only one year
In 2017, Jeanie Buss tapped Pelinka to succeed Mitch Kupchak and Jim Buss in the front office. Since then, he has drafted Lonzo Ball, Kyle Kuzma and Josh Hart as well as trading away Timofey Mozgov’s monstrous contract and signing LeBron James (with AD). Traded everybody for a Home Run Trade for Westbrook and this year he's had to compensate
Tellem’s day-to-day duties are murky, but it’s clear he wields a great deal of power in the organization, which states on their website that Tellem is a, “representative of ownership, and has broad responsibility for business strategy, planning and development, and strengthening the connection between PS&E and the community.” Troy Weaver is now the Piston's GM. He most recently served as vice president of basketball operations during the 2019–20 season. On June 18, 2020, Weaver was named the general manager for the Detroit Pistons
Zanik was hired by the Jazz in 2013 as Assistant GM. In 2016, Zanik left to the Bucks to fill the same position. Zanik eventually went back to Utah. Just last week, he was finally promoted to general manager, and while he obviously hasn’t had time to make franchise altering decisions, he is very well-regarded within the league. President of Basketball Operations is Zanik's boss.
-
NBA General Manager Profiles
With only 29 general managers in the NBA, the chances of becoming one are quite slim, and there is no single, verifiable path that ends in NBA GM positions, as seen in NBA general managers in 2019. For example, Milt Newton, assistant general manager of the Milwaukee Bucks started his athletic career as a college basketball standout in Kansas. By contrast, the general manager of the Houston Rockets, Daryl Morey didn't excel in athletics but earned an MBA from the MIT Sloan School of Management.
The only consistent common denominator between general managers is their love of the game. To become a general manager, you must be passionate about the job and willing to work crazy hours. The rewards, however, are startling. NBA general managers enjoy some of the highest salaries in professional sports. Rookie Road estimates that the average NBA GM salary is between $1-3 million.
https://work.chron.com/job-experience-required-general-manager-nba-25602.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A Mad Chinaman
Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6173
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | How many GMs have the cachet (in normal circumstances) to say No to Lebron and AD demanding to have Westbrook on the team - or else. Not many, if any. |
You assume that Lebron and Davis "demanded" that Pelinka trade for Westbrook "or else." How do you know that this is actually true? Yes, Lebron and Davis wanted Westbrook. That seems to be clear. But it is a different matter to say that they forced Pelinka to make the trade and that Pelinka feared for his job if he didn't obey. That's a narrative (specifically, an anti-Lebron narrative), not something that we know to be true.
In fact, the insider reports from the time indicate that Pelinka and Jeanie were on board with the trade. Jeanie actually got on the phone with Ted Leonsis to sell him on the deal. Pelinka was somehow able to say "No" to Lebron when it came to Tyrone Lue and later when it came to moving Westbrook at the deadline. But you think he couldn't have said "No" six months earlier?
So what's the real truth here? We may never know. I agree with AV that trying to apportion blame is a futility. I look at the overall performance of the front office while Pelinka has been the GM. Despite the title, the performance has been poor. We shouldn't assess a GM's performance based on one season that produces a result that is an outlier. GMs should be assessed on a broader basis. From that perspective, Pelinka really needs to up his game. |
Many truisms have been expressed
LBJ carries the "Biggest Stick/Influence" of any NBA player.
Jeanie's mission is to have LBJ be a Laker till the end of his career that provides even greater influence in what decisions are made.
The Lue decision could have been based on the size of the contract Jeanie was willing to pay for an upcoming coach at that time. Obviously Jeanie has seen the error of her ways or have a much greater confidence in Ham with his longer contract.
Sean Marks, a good to very good GM - depending on who one talks to - obviously had major issues/problems during the past off-season that makes the upcoming season a fascinating soap opera to watch.
Every GM has to always "Up Their Game."
Meyer will be facing many critical decisions in the upcoming months and off-season with three major decisions, while figuring out how Draymond is part of their future plans.
Interesting that the predictions from countless NBA pundits had already penciled in the Nets vs Lakers in The Finals, so many thought that the right decisions was made by both GMs.
If any other team had their top two stars out for much of the season, it would be hard for any team to be competitive - especially a new team. Only the Clippers had/have a deep enough team to lose multiple players to long-term injuries. Clips have many other problems to be discussed elsewhere.
Rob made the best available decision(s) to reinforce Ham's priority on having players that play Good D and with high energy befitting hungry players - hence PatDev, Schroeder, Reeves, Walker Jr. JTA and others were brought in to support LBJ/AD.
We will see if Rob's formula will work |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A Mad Chinaman
Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6173
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | And why would you hire someone without prior experience for such an important position in one of the most prestigious sports franchises? |
Because his experience is tied to maintaining a relationship with Klutch while trying to lead a team to championships.
And he did get 1 ring. I'm not mad. But I also think he clearly can't be compared to other GMs, because he's not a traditional one. |
My philosophy is all you can do is judge a GM by the totality of the decisions of the FO during his tenure. The GM gets credit for the good stuff, demerits for the bad stuff.
You are going down pointless rabbit holes if you try to guess how much those decisions were influenced by other people -- in our case, be it Magic, Jeanie, Lebron, whoever. |
I disagree. No other GM outside of NYK has direct ties to an agency and how that affects roster moves.
People are looking at this through a "traditional GM" lens when Pelinka is not that, so of course it's not going to look good. What was his job? Landing LBJ and AD and keeping Klutch happy. That's where his experience is as an agent is more beneficial than any talent evaluation/other roster moves that other GMs get evaluated on. In the end, the other GMs didn't land LBJ and AD. Pelinka helped with that so that's what he gets evaluated on. |
I don't think he had much to do, if anything, with LeBron coming here. I really don't think he had much to do with AD coming here either. AD wanted to come here. We basically gave the pelicans everything we could give them. I could have closed that deal as easily as Pelinka. All you needed to do was say yes to anything the pelicans asked for.
So if you think his only real job is to keep Klutch happy then all he is is a powerless, ass kissing toady.
If that's the standard by which you want to evaluate him, that's your business. To me, he is the GM of the Los Angeles lakers, and I will evaluate him by the same standard of any other GM.
I'm not going to cut him slack because he is a powerless toady. The fact that he accepted the job only to be a powerless toady shows me that he is incompetent at the job. A good GM wouldn't have taken the job under those conditions |
One might think/believe that Jeanie personally asked Rob to stay when Magic abruptly/suddenly resigned. If Rob would have left at the same time, after giving up his agency, Lakers would be in much worse shape - not that Magic didn't much GM work in straigthening out the mess that Jimmy Buss/Mitch Kupchak created with their many bad trades
How many GMs have the cachet (in normal circumstances) to say No to Lebron and AD demanding to have Westbrook on the team - or else. Not many, if any.
As has been stated in the media, Jeanie has both Rob and Ham's contract expiring at the same time. Ham is Rob's hire and we will see how it fares |
Ding ding.
Tell me, why would any experienced, successful GM go to the Lakers when they won't have as much team control?
Also, I highly disagree that any GM could have pulled off that AD trade. That whole thing was grossly complex in terms of handling salary and still being able to pick up Danny Green for less money, when he had a better offer with the Mavs, etc.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A Mad Chinaman
Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6173
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 6:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | And why would you hire someone without prior experience for such an important position in one of the most prestigious sports franchises? |
Because his experience is tied to maintaining a relationship with Klutch while trying to lead a team to championships.
And he did get 1 ring. I'm not mad. But I also think he clearly can't be compared to other GMs, because he's not a traditional one. |
My philosophy is all you can do is judge a GM by the totality of the decisions of the FO during his tenure. The GM gets credit for the good stuff, demerits for the bad stuff.
You are going down pointless rabbit holes if you try to guess how much those decisions were influenced by other people -- in our case, be it Magic, Jeanie, Lebron, whoever. |
I disagree. No other GM outside of NYK has direct ties to an agency and how that affects roster moves.
People are looking at this through a "traditional GM" lens when Pelinka is not that, so of course it's not going to look good. What was his job? Landing LBJ and AD and keeping Klutch happy. That's where his experience is as an agent is more beneficial than any talent evaluation/other roster moves that other GMs get evaluated on. In the end, the other GMs didn't land LBJ and AD. Pelinka helped with that so that's what he gets evaluated on. |
I don't think he had much to do, if anything, with LeBron coming here. I really don't think he had much to do with AD coming here either. AD wanted to come here. We basically gave the pelicans everything we could give them. I could have closed that deal as easily as Pelinka. All you needed to do was say yes to anything the pelicans asked for.
So if you think his only real job is to keep Klutch happy then all he is is a powerless, ass kissing toady.
If that's the standard by which you want to evaluate him, that's your business. To me, he is the GM of the Los Angeles lakers, and I will evaluate him by the same standard of any other GM.
I'm not going to cut him slack because he is a powerless toady. The fact that he accepted the job only to be a powerless toady shows me that he is incompetent at the job. A good GM wouldn't have taken the job under those conditions |
One might think/believe that Jeanie personally asked Rob to stay when Magic abruptly/suddenly resigned. If Rob would have left at the same time, after giving up his agency, Lakers would be in much worse shape - not that Magic didn't much GM work in straigthening out the mess that Jimmy Buss/Mitch Kupchak created with their many bad trades
How many GMs have the cachet (in normal circumstances) to say No to Lebron and AD demanding to have Westbrook on the team - or else. Not many, if any.
As has been stated in the media, Jeanie has both Rob and Ham's contract expiring at the same time. Ham is Rob's hire and we will see how it fares |
Ding ding.
Tell me, why would any experienced, successful GM go to the Lakers when they won't have as much team control?
Also, I highly disagree that any GM could have pulled off that AD trade. That whole thing was grossly complex in terms of handling salary and still being able to pick up Danny Green for less money, when he had a better offer with the Mavs, etc. |
When Rob took over, stability was the top priority because of Magic’s immediate and unexpected resignation.
Rob, like any other GM (even Meyers at GS) has to work within the financial structure given by the Owner. Rob definitely has comparable power to the vast majority of other GM, except Lakers only play for rings - not “The Process.”
Do you think that Meyers can ever trade Draymond with Steph and Klay firmly against the trade - nope
You are giving Rob credit for negotiating a complex trade for AD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JamaalWilkes
Star Player
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1177
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Failure. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A Mad Chinaman
Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6173
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
One can believe that Lebron/AD didn’t demand or expressed a very strong desire to have Westbrook on the Lakers
~ remembering the axiom that if one believes that it is true, then it is true
Will Meyers trade Draymond, if that is the financial and basketball-wise decision to make, despite Curry and Klay’s decision that they will not be “very happy”
https://global.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/34810368/andrew-wiggins-deal-another-extension-means-warriors-draymond-green-future
Hmmmm |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
