Would you trade both FRPs (unprotected) to Indy or Utah?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Would you trade both FRPs to Indy or Utah?
Yes to either team
10%
 10%  [ 8 ]
Yes to Indy only
21%
 21%  [ 17 ]
Yes to Utah only
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
No to either team
65%
 65%  [ 52 ]
Total Votes : 79

Author Message
Ksig
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 03 Dec 2016
Posts: 2086

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:34 am    Post subject:

1 unprotected FRP not both, or 2 protected FRP. Hell no to 2 unprotected FRP for these packages.

Our best move at this point is to wait til the trade deadline. Every season disgruntled stars and players always are looking to get out of bad situations.

Russ will look more attractive to teams in rough spots by mid season. Theres no more punting by other teams hoping to fleece us while we get more desperate, some team will pull the trigger at the deadline imo.

If we're out of the playoffs by then, then this team wasnt going to contend this season anyway.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:51 am    Post subject:

I suppose my favorite part about this is, if LAL had the #8 pick this year, they maybe get a borderline starter rookie year depending on who is drafted, but not likely to be a guy that's 20mpg in a playoff setting as a rookie.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

https://lakersdraft.substack.com/

I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
governator
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 24994

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:37 am    Post subject:

Dang Mod, u getting me hype with this championship run talk, almost sold me but we talking about having no more tradable FRPs/ young assets, just expirings after the tradey but if u think we can make a finals run with these trades then the 2 FRPs… man, I don’t know!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
defense
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 39317

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:20 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Yes to either team.

I don't think there's a championship possibility with Westbrook.

I do think there's a championship possibility with the returns of trade by either team.

The worst case scenario is, Westbrook doesn't wake up, and then it costs more than just the 2 picks to make everything work. Anyone else think about that?

I'm not concerned with winning trades. That's what Boston does.

I'm concerned with winning the season. That's what Boston doesn't do.


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
GOODRICH25
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 17 Jun 2017
Posts: 3366

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:15 pm    Post subject:

Im against trading even a single one. Enough wasting assets
_________________
48 49 50 52 53 54 72 80 82
85 87 88 00 01 02 09 10 20

17 99 19 22 44 13 25 Mic.
52 33 32 42 34 8 24 16 23 3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Hanging from Rafters
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 31 Jul 2018
Posts: 4292

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:21 pm    Post subject:

I had been interested in the Indy deal when I thought it was Westbrook and THT plus 2FRPs for Turner and Heild, thinking 1 pic for WB and 1 pic for two useful starters that fit out team…but taking Theis salary back and giving up both pics? No thanks…would rather suck another season with WB and waste another year of LBJ than get bent over backwards like that.

And the Utah deal doesn’t make us good enough imo…voted no but if deal is for Beasley, Vanderbilt, Bogdonovic for Westbrook only without losing Nunn or Gabriel then perhaps it could be considered
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
gng930
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 11475

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:25 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
gng930 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Yes to either team.

I don't think there's a championship possibility with Westbrook.

I do think there's a championship possibility with the returns of trade by either team.

The worst case scenario is, Westbrook doesn't wake up, and then it costs more than just the 2 picks to make everything work. Anyone else think about that?

I'm not concerned with winning trades. That's what Boston does.

I'm concerned with winning the season. That's what Boston doesn't do.


Props to you for being willing to voice an unpopular stance. I think it comes down to everyone's perceived ceiling and fit. If it were a strict numbers game where you add up everyone's 2K rating or ESPN player rankings, the Indy deal gives us a shot. Where it (and Utah's) package falls short to me is the fit, especially during closing time. Our championship roster had at least four 2-way players I trusted to close (KCP, Green, AC, and Kief) and another fringe closer (Rondo) who had vulnerabilities but could make up for it with his basketball IQ. The only player on our current group that comes close to making the first group is Reaves with PatBev falling into the latter group when accounting for his size but also the size of the fight in him. I don't see much potential for that in either the Utah or Indy packages other than maybe Turner against bigger lineups.

I also think it's highly unlikely Russ' value can drop any further. He's already a likely buyout candidate if traded. If anything, it will potentially be less negative as the season wears on with the salary commitment dwindling and teams getting more anxious about losing assets to upcoming free agency without compensation. On the flip side, the deadline always has the potential to be a sellers' market and teams may sense an even greater sense of desperation from us. My feeling though is that you don't make a bad deal now based on a low likelihood that it may become worse later.


NBA 2K is horrible with ratings and I stopped playing because I got better at talent evaluation, to the point of where the details in the actual game don't reflect in the actual player ratings.

People aren't understanding that Russ was a 2-way role player out of UCLA, was a self motivated point guard with average vision, but had unreal motor, which led to his MVPs.

Somebody, tell me why, people think that he's going to change and go away from made him so successful, with declining athleticism, declining motor, and less interest in off-ball defense than he had at UCLA.

And then on top of that, tell me why teams would offer more, for that kind of player?

The Lakers continually make mistakes when they do/don't do certain trades. It costs them picks every single time. Trading for Westbrook was one of several bad moves in a row. Not trading Westbrook just leaves the team stuck, closing LeBron's window with him on the team.

Like that's a better move? HARD pass.

Midseason trades rarely happen, and you leave open the variable of Westbrook's value possibly getting worse.

I'd rather run a team start to finish for a championship run. Last season was garbage top to bottom. LAL even had "scoring LeBron" and it didn't even get them into the playoffs, despite injury to different players.

Playoffs and championships run through LeBron and AD, so why on earth should LAL give the ball to a high USG player when he's not the highest IQ player/decision-making/arguably worst shooter on the team? That's how bad his impact is, and frankly, there's a slim glimmer of hope when all 3 guys are healthy and they've won games. But it's tough to run a high motor offense when your two older/oldest guys are in charge of pushing the tempo.


I agree that dealing Westbrook is at the very least addition by subtraction. I've even advocated for just sitting him altogether although I realize that's not going to happen. It's more about the opportunity cost of dealing our FRPs. I do see your point about the FRPs not being that valuable to us with our ability to find gems later on. It's just that other teams do value them so the opportunity cost to me is more the upgrades they would facilitate as opposed to a player they might draft.

I believe Hield and Turner are obvious upgrades but leaves us with a huge vulnerability, a defensive wing, with no clear assets to address that need later. We definitely lucked out with the matchups 2 years ago in the playoffs. We let a non-3-point-shooting wing run roughshod on our defense in the Finals to the point that we needed AD to shut him down. I don't think AD does that against a reasonable 3-point threat; he was able to shut down the drive but ultimately it only worked because he conceded the 3 to Jimmy.

If we had a third FRP (paging the Pelicans), I'd be more compelled to make either deal although we need to make sure to have enough salary fodder or a TPE for any follow-up deal. In summary, I don't mind the value of the return in either deal. However, I don't love the fit but maybe that can be mitigated as long as we retain the ability to make a follow-up deal.
_________________
Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
governator
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 24994

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:13 am    Post subject:

Hanging from Rafters wrote:
I had been interested in the Indy deal when I thought it was Westbrook and THT plus 2FRPs for Turner and Heild, thinking 1 pic for WB and 1 pic for two useful starters that fit out team…but taking Theis salary back and giving up both pics? No thanks…would rather suck another season with WB and waste another year of LBJ than get bent over backwards like that.

And the Utah deal doesn’t make us good enough imo…voted no but if deal is for Beasley, Vanderbilt, Bogdonovic for Westbrook only without losing Nunn or Gabriel then perhaps it could be considered


I'd do this one,

WB+THT+Stanley+2 FRPs for Hield+Myles+PatBev+Theis

I'm sure owner would frown at the tax but basketball wise, we can resign all of them

Turner-T.Bryant-Jones
AD-Theis-Wenyen
Bron-JTA-LW4-Max
Hield-Reaves-Brown
PatBev-Nunn

Money aside, that's a strong 1st and 2nd unit, that team can contend
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:39 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Dang Mod, u getting me hype with this championship run talk, almost sold me but we talking about having no more tradable FRPs/ young assets, just expirings after the tradey but if u think we can make a finals run with these trades then the 2 FRPs… man, I don’t know!


If you're not banking on finding franchise players through picks, and LAL is set on doing cap space plans to get franchise players, then the picks are to basically get solid role players, right?

So, why are we arguing over roughly 10 spots in the draft when LAL buys 2nd round picks?

Do people really think the #8 player in this past draft is going to help get LAL into contention that much? That #8 guy is attractive in trades, but you're not getting a star back in return either.

1. Identify the problem.

The problem is the belief that the current roster isn't a championship contending one. Why am I worried about what happens in the draft... 7 years from now? Chances are, the Lakers will cap cycle once or twice by then, fill the roster with newly signed franchise players, fill the rest of the team with MLE/vet min signings. Where on earth does a late 1st round pick fit in all this?

I want a contending roster while the Lakers still have 2 franchise players.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

https://lakersdraft.substack.com/

I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58318

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:22 am    Post subject:

The issue with Mike AT LG's argument is that it is under the assumption that Lebron and AD have healthy/peak level seasons in them. In 3 years together, they have only had 1, and that too was under very unique circumstances. There was a 3 month time off between the RS and playoffs. I fully believe in 2019 AD and 2019 Lebron. That was a championship level duo. Give them Pat Bev, trade WB+2 picks for 2 starting level players, still have Reaves/Jones/Walker etc left over, you're a contender.

Here's the real issue - the deeper issue with the last 2 years that is overlooked. Vogel never had a healthy roster. Not a single significant time. He always was dealing with the same type of stuff that has held the Clippers back with Kawhi/PG. Westbrooks get the blame, as did Vogel, but our issues went deeper than that.

I know the chemistry and impact of AD/Bron is elite, you can rival it to Pau/Kobe or Shaq/Kobe in terms of when they are at their best, but who really believes both guys will be at their best all season and go into 2023 playoffs healthy and ready to win 4 playoff series? Lebron will be in year 20, age 38, and AD will be in 30 in 2023. The odds of them having a fully healthy year, where they are able to peak in the playoffs are not very high.

Heck, with AD, you can start a playoff series like we did with the Suns, be up 2-1 and look like you will take the series, and then AD gets hurt. You just can't build a team around AD/Lebron and expect health, and continuity from them. It hasn't happened in a single proper season + playoffs format, and to invest future picks (that could be lottery picks) for them to go from a 43 win team to a 49-51 win team makes little sense to me, personally. This isn't like Shaq and Kobe, where you knew you could count on Kobe and Shaq to be there each season and stay healthy and be ready for the playoffs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:30 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
The issue with Mike ( a t ) LG's argument is that it is under the assumption that Lebron and AD have healthy/peak level seasons in them. In 3 years together, they have only had 1, and that too was under very unique circumstances. There was a 3 month time off between the RS and playoffs. I fully believe in 2019 AD and 2019 Lebron. That was a championship level duo. Give them Pat Bev, trade WB+2 picks for 2 starting level players, still have Reaves/Jones/Walker etc left over, you're a contender.

Here's the real issue - the deeper issue with the last 2 years that is overlooked. Vogel never had a healthy roster. Not a single significant time. He always was dealing with the same type of stuff that has held the Clippers back with Kawhi/PG. Westbrooks get the blame, as did Vogel, but our issues went deeper than that.

I know the chemistry and impact of AD/Bron is elite, you can rival it to Pau/Kobe or Shaq/Kobe in terms of when they are at their best, but who really believes both guys will be at their best all season and go into 2023 playoffs healthy and ready to win 4 playoff series? Lebron will be in year 20, age 38, and AD will be in 30 in 2023. The odds of them having a fully healthy year, where they are able to peak in the playoffs are not very high.

Heck, with AD, you can start a playoff series like we did with the Suns, be up 2-1 and look like you will take the series, and then AD gets hurt. You just can't build a team around AD/Lebron and expect health, and continuity from them. It hasn't happened in a single proper season + playoffs format, and to invest future picks (that could be lottery picks) for them to go from a 43 win team to a 49-51 win team makes little sense to me, personally. This isn't like Shaq and Kobe, where you knew you could count on Kobe and Shaq to be there each season and stay healthy and be ready for the playoffs.


If LeBron or AD aren't healthy, there's no championship anyway, but it's not like either package from Utah or Indy becomes valueless.

I'd even argue that the players in return from trade are actually *easier* to trade again, because it's one giant contract broken down into smaller ones, and those players are productive players.

If you're not expecting health, Westbrook isn't going to save the season, and you're still arguing over 1 first round pick.

So, no, I wouldn't call it a "flaw." Every move is a risk. Keeping Westbrook on the team over a 1st round pick, I'd argue, is riskier.

You want to keep attracting superstars? Show the league that when the team acquires franchise players, they're willing to make moves to compete every year and not just sit around over a pick.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

https://lakersdraft.substack.com/

I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58318

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:44 am    Post subject:

^
I think we showed our commitment to superstars by how we paid off Kobe and now Lebron late in their careers. The stars tend to care more about that, than they do the other stuff. Lebron got AD who cost the Lakers almost all their young draft picks and players. I mean AD was Garland, Ingram, Ball and then some. That's a lot of payment for Lebron to get a title now. Stars will see that.

But now that Lebron is heading into year 20 and you can see it in his games played and how he has to rest for long portions of the season, how he's becoming far more 3 ball reliant, it's not the same Lebron that led the Cavs to a title or Lakers in 2019. We certainly don't have the same AD.

We've given up enough picks - such as the Garland pick. I mean if we traded for AD before the lottery, we would have likely have been able to keep that pick. Because we moved up so high, we ended up giving up 2 all-stars in Ingram and Garland. I still think the title is worth it and so was AD's 2019 season. But that was 3 years ago. Looking at the next 2 years, I don't see the same incentives. A title is just not happening. What we're paying draft compensation for is to go from a mediocre play in/6th seed team to a team that is a playoff lock. We're not going to be better than the 2011-12 Lakers, that went out to the younger OKC team.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
ocho
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53712

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:49 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
The issue with Mike AT LG's argument is that it is under the assumption that Lebron and AD have healthy/peak level seasons in them. In 3 years together, they have only had 1, and that too was under very unique circumstances. There was a 3 month time off between the RS and playoffs. I fully believe in 2019 AD and 2019 Lebron. That was a championship level duo. Give them Pat Bev, trade WB+2 picks for 2 starting level players, still have Reaves/Jones/Walker etc left over, you're a contender.

Here's the real issue - the deeper issue with the last 2 years that is overlooked. Vogel never had a healthy roster. Not a single significant time. He always was dealing with the same type of stuff that has held the Clippers back with Kawhi/PG. Westbrooks get the blame, as did Vogel, but our issues went deeper than that.

I know the chemistry and impact of AD/Bron is elite, you can rival it to Pau/Kobe or Shaq/Kobe in terms of when they are at their best, but who really believes both guys will be at their best all season and go into 2023 playoffs healthy and ready to win 4 playoff series? Lebron will be in year 20, age 38, and AD will be in 30 in 2023. The odds of them having a fully healthy year, where they are able to peak in the playoffs are not very high.

Heck, with AD, you can start a playoff series like we did with the Suns, be up 2-1 and look like you will take the series, and then AD gets hurt. You just can't build a team around AD/Lebron and expect health, and continuity from them. It hasn't happened in a single proper season + playoffs format, and to invest future picks (that could be lottery picks) for them to go from a 43 win team to a 49-51 win team makes little sense to me, personally. This isn't like Shaq and Kobe, where you knew you could count on Kobe and Shaq to be there each season and stay healthy and be ready for the playoffs.


If LeBron or AD aren't healthy, there's no championship anyway, but it's not like either package from Utah or Indy becomes valueless.

I'd even argue that the players in return from trade are actually *easier* to trade again, because it's one giant contract broken down into smaller ones, and those players are productive players.

If you're not expecting health, Westbrook isn't going to save the season, and you're still arguing over 1 first round pick.

So, no, I wouldn't call it a "flaw." Every move is a risk. Keeping Westbrook on the team over a 1st round pick, I'd argue, is riskier.

You want to keep attracting superstars? Show the league that when the team acquires franchise players, they're willing to make moves to compete every year and not just sit around over a pick.


Yeah the choice is really in what we value more: the two future picks or having LeBron/AD together. If we stand pat we shut the window closed and concede that we are done competing with those guys. It means overpaying for something because we made a huge mistake, but there aren’t always great options on the table (especially for teams that routinely do dumb stuff). Given what a typical first rounder actually is, it’s hard for me to value them more than having two superstars on the team.
_________________
14-5-3-12
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:00 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
^
I think we showed our commitment to superstars by how we paid off Kobe and now Lebron late in their careers. The stars tend to care more about that, than they do the other stuff. Lebron got AD who cost the Lakers almost all their young draft picks and players. I mean AD was Garland, Ingram, Ball and then some. That's a lot of payment for Lebron to get a title now. Stars will see that.

But now that Lebron is heading into year 20 and you can see it in his games played and how he has to rest for long portions of the season, how he's becoming far more 3 ball reliant, it's not the same Lebron that led the Cavs to a title or Lakers in 2019. We certainly don't have the same AD.

We've given up enough picks - such as the Garland pick. I mean if we traded for AD before the lottery, we would have likely have been able to keep that pick. Because we moved up so high, we ended up giving up 2 all-stars in Ingram and Garland. I still think the title is worth it and so was AD's 2019 season. But that was 3 years ago. Looking at the next 2 years, I don't see the same incentives. A title is just not happening. What we're paying draft compensation for is to go from a mediocre play in/6th seed team to a team that is a playoff lock. We're not going to be better than the 2011-12 Lakers, that went out to the younger OKC team.


Kobe didn't have an agency.

LeBron has Klutch.

As much as I'm a draft guy, keeping Ingram and Garland isn't enough to compete for a championship, and it actually costs you more roster-wise to construct a championship team around them.

This is why you need the absolute top players in the NBA. Those Top 5 guys? They play more than their contract value.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

https://lakersdraft.substack.com/

I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:01 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Given what a typical first rounder actually is, it’s hard for me to value them more than having two superstars on the team.


Agreed. The opportunity presents itself now, not 7 years from now.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

https://lakersdraft.substack.com/

I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
22
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 17063

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:20 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Given what a typical first rounder actually is, it’s hard for me to value them more than having two superstars on the team.


Agreed. The opportunity presents itself now, not 7 years from now.


Except we don’t have two superstars on the team other than in name form. Their age and health make the odds extremely low they perform up to their capability.

IMO this season is a punt. They’ll advertise Bron chasing Kareem as a distraction. If dumping Westbrook costs too much (seems like it does) then let it ride and get out of Lux tax territory. We’re likely losing this year no matter what. Might as well keep the picks for the players or future deals
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:02 am    Post subject:

22 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Given what a typical first rounder actually is, it’s hard for me to value them more than having two superstars on the team.


Agreed. The opportunity presents itself now, not 7 years from now.


Except we don’t have two superstars on the team other than in name form. Their age and health make the odds extremely low they perform up to their capability.


This is an assumption.

You know, AD and LeBron don't even think that, right?

If the season is a punt, then really, just trade everyone for future assets and cap room as soon as possible.

But that doesn't work with LeBron or Klutch. You don't want your superstar to lose his way out of the league with lottery picks going to other teams.

That's why this idea of "hanging onto the 1st rounder" doesn't work.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

https://lakersdraft.substack.com/

I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ocho
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53712

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:20 am    Post subject:

22 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Given what a typical first rounder actually is, it’s hard for me to value them more than having two superstars on the team.


Agreed. The opportunity presents itself now, not 7 years from now.


Except we don’t have two superstars on the team other than in name form. Their age and health make the odds extremely low they perform up to their capability.

IMO this season is a punt. They’ll advertise Bron chasing Kareem as a distraction. If dumping Westbrook costs too much (seems like it does) then let it ride and get out of Lux tax territory. We’re likely losing this year no matter what. Might as well keep the picks for the players or future deals


We don’t have a guarantee that anyone will be healthy next season. Nobody does and nobody ever will. But these two won a championship together two years ago. By your logic, since both had been injured before (in fact I think both had injuries the year before), we shouldn’t have even bothered. When you have two superstars like this you take the risks and go for it.
_________________
14-5-3-12
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
22
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 17063

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:24 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
22 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Given what a typical first rounder actually is, it’s hard for me to value them more than having two superstars on the team.


Agreed. The opportunity presents itself now, not 7 years from now.


Except we don’t have two superstars on the team other than in name form. Their age and health make the odds extremely low they perform up to their capability.


This is an assumption.

You know, AD and LeBron don't even think that, right?

If the season is a punt, then really, just trade everyone for future assets and cap room as soon as possible.

But that doesn't work with LeBron or Klutch. You don't want your superstar to lose his way out of the league with lottery picks going to other teams.

That's why this idea of "hanging onto the 1st rounder" doesn't work.


Honestly there’s a good possibility that’s the best option. Jeanie would never do it though
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
22
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 17063

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:28 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
22 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Given what a typical first rounder actually is, it’s hard for me to value them more than having two superstars on the team.


Agreed. The opportunity presents itself now, not 7 years from now.


Except we don’t have two superstars on the team other than in name form. Their age and health make the odds extremely low they perform up to their capability.

IMO this season is a punt. They’ll advertise Bron chasing Kareem as a distraction. If dumping Westbrook costs too much (seems like it does) then let it ride and get out of Lux tax territory. We’re likely losing this year no matter what. Might as well keep the picks for the players or future deals


We don’t have a guarantee that anyone will be healthy next season. Nobody does and nobody ever will. But these two won a championship together two years ago. By your logic, since both had been injured before (in fact I think both had injuries the year before), we shouldn’t have even bothered. When you have two superstars like this you take the risks and go for it.


Of course no team ever has a guarantee of health. But our guys are a lot more of a risk in that area than others. Just check yinoma’s signature lol.

We earned that last title fair and square. But a 3 month rest before the playoffs is unprecedented. Our guys have not made it to the finish line healthy in their time as Lakers without it. Not enough for me to give up 2 unprotected firsts for
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
ocho
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53712

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:46 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
ocho wrote:
22 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Given what a typical first rounder actually is, it’s hard for me to value them more than having two superstars on the team.


Agreed. The opportunity presents itself now, not 7 years from now.


Except we don’t have two superstars on the team other than in name form. Their age and health make the odds extremely low they perform up to their capability.

IMO this season is a punt. They’ll advertise Bron chasing Kareem as a distraction. If dumping Westbrook costs too much (seems like it does) then let it ride and get out of Lux tax territory. We’re likely losing this year no matter what. Might as well keep the picks for the players or future deals


We don’t have a guarantee that anyone will be healthy next season. Nobody does and nobody ever will. But these two won a championship together two years ago. By your logic, since both had been injured before (in fact I think both had injuries the year before), we shouldn’t have even bothered. When you have two superstars like this you take the risks and go for it.


Of course no team ever has a guarantee of health. But our guys are a lot more of a risk in that area than others. Just check yinoma’s signature lol.

We earned that last title fair and square. But a 3 month rest before the playoffs is unprecedented. Our guys have not made it to the finish line healthy in their time as Lakers without it. Not enough for me to give up 2 unprotected firsts for


Our guys have only played 3 seasons together and they won a championship in one of them. I know people like to credit the break, but when the break happened we were in first place and had just beaten our two biggest rivals in the same weekend. These guys are really, really good together. They deserve to be given the best chance to compete. Otherwise you might as well just dump all your assets for picks and join the league of teams that lose professionally.
_________________
14-5-3-12
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
22
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 17063

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:02 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
22 wrote:
ocho wrote:
22 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Given what a typical first rounder actually is, it’s hard for me to value them more than having two superstars on the team.


Agreed. The opportunity presents itself now, not 7 years from now.


Except we don’t have two superstars on the team other than in name form. Their age and health make the odds extremely low they perform up to their capability.

IMO this season is a punt. They’ll advertise Bron chasing Kareem as a distraction. If dumping Westbrook costs too much (seems like it does) then let it ride and get out of Lux tax territory. We’re likely losing this year no matter what. Might as well keep the picks for the players or future deals


We don’t have a guarantee that anyone will be healthy next season. Nobody does and nobody ever will. But these two won a championship together two years ago. By your logic, since both had been injured before (in fact I think both had injuries the year before), we shouldn’t have even bothered. When you have two superstars like this you take the risks and go for it.


Of course no team ever has a guarantee of health. But our guys are a lot more of a risk in that area than others. Just check yinoma’s signature lol.

We earned that last title fair and square. But a 3 month rest before the playoffs is unprecedented. Our guys have not made it to the finish line healthy in their time as Lakers without it. Not enough for me to give up 2 unprotected firsts for


Our guys have only played 3 seasons together and they won a championship in one of them. I know people like to credit the break, but when the break happened we were in first place and had just beaten our two biggest rivals in the same weekend. These guys are really, really good together. They deserve to be given the best chance to compete. Otherwise you might as well just dump all your assets for picks and join the league of teams that lose professionally.


People credit the break because it’s not a matter of skill or fit with those two. It’s health. Lebron is not getting younger. AD’s lower body injuries are adding up.

Eventually the train falls off the tracks and the bill comes due. Smarter to hold on to our assets than to go for broke hoping they can stay healthy which they haven’t done aside from a 3 month break. Especially when all we’d be giving them is Bojan or Heild and Turner. Not enough. For protected firsts sure, try it. Unprotected? Too big of a gamble
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
gng930
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 11475

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:45 pm    Post subject:

^^^ It sounds like you're in favor of just blowing it up altogether if you don't place enough faith in any ability to stay healthy. It's not an unreasonable stance. I think that is discordant with Lebron's extension though.

For the right deal, I give up both unprotected picks. I just don't equate either team's offering to that right deal.
_________________
Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit)


Last edited by gng930 on Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
2019
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 10786

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:47 pm    Post subject:

Kinda funny to contextualize this debate with the fact that had we not been treating 1st round picks like they grow on trees, we'd have most our problems solved. Yet, we now having to consider moving future firsts to *try to* solve our problems. Undo the Dennis and Russ deals, draft Bane (rumored) (hopefully Herb Jones following year), and look where we end up.

IMO, that's what makes this such a dicey situation. On one hand, we should learn from our mistakes and not give up valuable pieces/picks for guys who don't put us over the top. On the other, we have Lebron and AD right now and it might be our last chance so we might as well use the picks to clean up the mess. To waste a year versus risk the future for maybe we can be a top 4 seed with a deal... that is the question.

This is where having an experienced voice in a FO helps. Joey and Jesse are kids. Pelinka is a n00b. Jeanie has no basketball sense and relies on failed basketball ops people. What a disaster.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
22
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 17063

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:02 pm    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:
^^^ It sounds like you're in favor of just blowing it up altogether if you don't place enough faith in any ability to stay healthy. It's not an unreasonable stance. I think that is discordant with Lebron's extension though.

For the right deal, I give up both unprotected picks. I just don't equate either team's offering to that right deal.


Agreed on all fronts. Jeanie would never blow it up we’re sticking with this core for the foreseeable future.

If there were better deals available I wouldn’t mind dealing the picks either. I just don’t seen anything bout there worth it currently. Since we won’t blow it up then we’ll just have to roll with what we got
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 3 of 7
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB