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| Was passing on Tatum the biggest draft blunder in the history of the Lakers? |
| yes |
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43% |
[ 14 ] |
| no |
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56% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 32 |
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ThePageDude
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 2619
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 Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| mad55557777 wrote: | The only way we could've drafted Tatum was after Boston trade with magic, we take him without a workout. In any other scenario, Boston would’ve took him at 1.
It would be very irresponsible for magic to use the second pick on a player that never worked out for us |
Disagree. The Lakers could've worked him out and spread FUD that they were still taking Ball, including Magic doing a second workout with Ball and continuing to wax poetic about Ball breaking all his records.
Now the Celtics may still have gotten spooked and taken Tatum at #1, who knows, but at least it would have prevented the Celtics from getting Philly's #1 and history would've acclaimed the Lakers for having tried to do their best. |
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mad55557777
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | The only way we could've drafted Tatum was after Boston trade with magic, we take him without a workout. In any other scenario, Boston would’ve took him at 1.
It would be very irresponsible for magic to use the second pick on a player that never worked out for us |
Disagree. The Lakers could've worked him out and spread FUD that they were still taking Ball, including Magic doing a second workout with Ball and continuing to wax poetic about Ball breaking all his records.
Now the Celtics may still have gotten spooked and taken Tatum at #1, who knows, but at least it would have prevented the Celtics from getting Philly's #1 and history would've acclaimed the Lakers for having tried to do their best. |
lakers were pretty much set on taking Ball, and had very little interest in taking another SF the year after BI. they didn't even pursuit a workout (or Tatum's camp didn't want one). obviously with how they turnout, we can keep talking about how the lakers should've drafted Tatum, but at that point in time, i just don't see how they draft him. you think Phx fans would've loved Luka (i am going to skp mentioning the kings because they are losers) |
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ThePageDude
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 2619
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| mad55557777 wrote: |
<snip>
lakers were pretty much set on taking Ball, and had very little interest in taking another SF the year after BI. they didn't even pursuit a workout (or Tatum's camp didn't want one). obviously with how they turnout, we can keep talking about how the lakers should've drafted Tatum, but at that point in time, i just don't see how they draft him. you think Phx fans would've loved Luka (i am going to skp mentioning the kings because they are losers) |
Well, they shouldn't have been fixated on Ball, that's the whole point - that was p***-poor GM-ship. And I've shown you a scenario where it was *possible* (albeit unlikely) that the Lakers end up with Tatum BUT FOR their own inaction. It's their own inaction that erased even the little chance they actually had. |
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BILBJH
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Joined: 23 Jul 2020
Posts: 5145
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Is it more irresponsible to draft a player after he had a terrible workout
Or more irresponsible to draft a player with no workout.
Seems like six of one, half dozen of another. |
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kobe8One
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Joined: 23 May 2011
Posts: 633
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: |
<snip>
lakers were pretty much set on taking Ball, and had very little interest in taking another SF the year after BI. they didn't even pursuit a workout (or Tatum's camp didn't want one). obviously with how they turnout, we can keep talking about how the lakers should've drafted Tatum, but at that point in time, i just don't see how they draft him. you think Phx fans would've loved Luka (i am going to skp mentioning the kings because they are losers) |
Well, they shouldn't have been fixated on Ball, that's the whole point - that was p***-poor GM-ship. And I've shown you a scenario where it was *possible* (albeit unlikely) that the Lakers end up with Tatum BUT FOR their own inaction. It's their own inaction that erased even the little chance they actually had. |
If Mitch and Jim were still here, they would never drafted Lonzo at No.2 for basketball reasons. They might at late first or second round. 100% not at No. 2. At least WB's UCLA got to Final Four and Ball's UCLA ended in sweet 16. Bigger mistake drafting him at No.2 than not drafting Tatum. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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mad55557777
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 23612
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Seriously, check the date of the articles, “finalizing” doesn’t mean he did. Stop making things up. |
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mad55557777
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 23612
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| kobe8One wrote: | | ThePageDude wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: |
<snip>
lakers were pretty much set on taking Ball, and had very little interest in taking another SF the year after BI. they didn't even pursuit a workout (or Tatum's camp didn't want one). obviously with how they turnout, we can keep talking about how the lakers should've drafted Tatum, but at that point in time, i just don't see how they draft him. you think Phx fans would've loved Luka (i am going to skp mentioning the kings because they are losers) |
Well, they shouldn't have been fixated on Ball, that's the whole point - that was p***-poor GM-ship. And I've shown you a scenario where it was *possible* (albeit unlikely) that the Lakers end up with Tatum BUT FOR their own inaction. It's their own inaction that erased even the little chance they actually had. |
If Mitch and Jim were still here, they would never drafted Lonzo at No.2 for basketball reasons. They might at late first or second round. 100% not at No. 2. At least WB's UCLA got to Final Four and Ball's UCLA ended in sweet 16. Bigger mistake drafting him at No.2 than not drafting Tatum. |
That’s like saying Trump would’ve stopped the school shooting or the Russia invasion. |
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mad55557777
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 23612
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: |
<snip>
lakers were pretty much set on taking Ball, and had very little interest in taking another SF the year after BI. they didn't even pursuit a workout (or Tatum's camp didn't want one). obviously with how they turnout, we can keep talking about how the lakers should've drafted Tatum, but at that point in time, i just don't see how they draft him. you think Phx fans would've loved Luka (i am going to skp mentioning the kings because they are losers) |
Well, they shouldn't have been fixated on Ball, that's the whole point - that was p***-poor GM-ship. And I've shown you a scenario where it was *possible* (albeit unlikely) that the Lakers end up with Tatum BUT FOR their own inaction. It's their own inaction that erased even the little chance they actually had. |
Half of the people here are still obsessed with Ball, a local product, unique skills. I understand why they didn’t because they were going for lebron and drafted BI in the previous year. |
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CamReddish
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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No he didn't
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hydrohead
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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you know who would not have passed on Tatum?
Jerry West
You know who was begging to be part of the franchise when Jeanie took over?
Jerry West
Instead she was conned by Magic who ended up quitting a job he didn’t even work hard at.
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activeverb
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Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| LBJ23 wrote: |
No he didn't |
1. The Lakers negotiated to have Tatum work out for us, but Tatum ultimately declined.
2. By and large, Ball was considered a good pick. Virtually every post-draft analysis gave us an A.
3. Tatum was considered a more questionable pick. Lots of people liked him, but there really wasn't a lot of post-draft criticism of us for taking Ball over him.
4. Obviously in hindsight Tatum was the better player. Of course in hindsight, the 76ers wouldn't have taken Fultz #1. Drafting in hindsight is super easy. |
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ThePageDude
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 2619
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: |
<snip>
1. The Lakers negotiated to have Tatum work out for us, but Tatum ultimately declined.
2. By and large, Ball was considered a good pick. Virtually every post-draft analysis gave us an A.
3. Tatum was considered a more questionable pick. Lots of people liked him, but there really wasn't a lot of post-draft criticism of us for taking Ball over him.
4. Obviously in hindsight Tatum was the better player. Of course in hindsight, the 76ers wouldn't have taken Fultz #1. Drafting in hindsight is super easy. |
Here's another narrative. I've provided supporting evidence in various other posts over the years:
1. Tatum idolized Kobe and dreamed of being a Laker.
2. Going into the draft Fultz was widely considered a lock at #1.
2. As the draft approached and teams started to woo prospects, Tatum got convinced that he was going #4 to Phoenix because:
- Fultz would go #1 and Tatum had had little interest in the Celtics
- Tatum thought Isaac would be in the mix for Top 3 (not sure why)
- The Lakers had showed little interest in him; Magic had instead made very public his infatuation with Ball and his faith in Ingram. The news-report VLF quoted of the Lakers widening their workouts to include Tatum came *after* all the Magic/Ball leaks and barely days before the draft. Meanwhile the following happened.
3. Well before the final week, Ainge did his due diligence and worked out all top prospects including Fultz, Tatum and Isaac. He realized Tatum was the real deal so he went "full court" on Tatum (like Magic on Ball) and wooe'd him, sold him on being a future Celtic star, made him feel wanted, told him the Celtics would take him one way or another.
AT THIS SAME TIME, when Ainge was working out and selling Tatum, Magic was very publicly wooing Ball and letting it be known that their priority was a PG.
4. Now Philly had bought into the Fultz hype and approached Ainge to see if they could trade up to get Fultz. Ainge saw his chance for a double whammy. He knew the Lakers would take Ball, and he knew Philly would take Fultz at #1.
He used this info to further convince Tatum's camp that Tatum was the Lakers/Philly's second choice *at best*, any further workouts would be a waste of time because both Lakers/Philly preferred others over him.
The rest, as they say, is history.
The issue is NOT that the Lakers could have picked Tatum in that draft, Boston had pole position. The issue is that the Lakers' draft process was ABYSMAL - at the minimum they could have forced Boston's hand and made them pick Tatum at #1. They broke every rule of smart drafting (especially when contrasted with what Ainge did - which makes me puke because I detest Ainge):
- rampant leaks of information
- public sales pitch directed at ONE player that demotivated other prospects
- open kimonos while other GM's played poker
- complete lack of awareness of how other teams were strategizing |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| In a vacuum, yes. It might have been a historically bad blunder but you have to look at team construction also. Lakers don't have the genius of Brad Stevens when it comes to constructing a good roster. More likely than not, Tatum is stuck carrying a heavy offensive load without guys like Brown, Horford, White, etc. You can't just blindly say they'd be a championship team with Tatum without factoring in all the other pieces. |
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BirdMagicLegend
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Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | In a vacuum, yes. It might have been a historically bad blunder but you have to look at team construction also. Lakers don't have the genius of Brad Stevens when it comes to constructing a good roster. More likely than not, Tatum is stuck carrying a heavy offensive load without guys like Brown, Horford, White, etc. You can't just blindly say they'd be a championship team with Tatum without factoring in all the other pieces. |
Genius of Brad Stevens? Don't forget Danny Ainge.
This team was mostly Ainge's genius when it comes to team construction like 80%. He got Tatum, Brown, Smart, Timelord, Pritchard.
Stevens filled in the gaps with Horford and Theis back again and White while getting rid of Kemba a weak link.
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mad55557777
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 23612
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| hydrohead wrote: | you know who would not have passed on Tatum?
Jerry West
You know who was begging to be part of the franchise when Jeanie took over?
Jerry West
Instead she was conned by Magic who ended up quitting a job he didn’t even work hard at. |
while Jerry west was great and all, his record of drafting was pretty bad. |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| BirdMagicLegend wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | In a vacuum, yes. It might have been a historically bad blunder but you have to look at team construction also. Lakers don't have the genius of Brad Stevens when it comes to constructing a good roster. More likely than not, Tatum is stuck carrying a heavy offensive load without guys like Brown, Horford, White, etc. You can't just blindly say they'd be a championship team with Tatum without factoring in all the other pieces. |
Genius of Brad Stevens? Don't forget Danny Ainge.
This team was mostly Ainge's genius when it comes to team construction like 80%. He got Tatum, Brown, Smart, Timelord, Pritchard.
Stevens filled in the gaps with Horford and Theis back again and White while getting rid of Kemba a weak link. |
I agree with you to a certain extent. I can certainly give Ainge credit for past acquisitions, but I'd say the current team has more of Brad Stevens' DNA and imprint all over it. Ainge went for the bigger names (Kyrie, Hayward, Kemba, etc) and it didn't quite work out. Brad was willing to stick with building around Tatum and Brown, while surrounding them with nice complementary pieces and an unproven head coach. Al Horford saved their butts vs the Bucks, and Derrick White balled out vs the Warriors in game 1. When it comes to team building philosophy, I've always felt it's the "little guys" who end up helping playoff teams the most (Alvarado, White, Horford, etc). Lakers have routinely gone for the big names when keeping Caruso and/or BroLo would have sufficed. It's hard to believe this same Celtics team was .500 at one point (29-29) I think. |
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mad55557777
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 23612
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
<snip>
1. The Lakers negotiated to have Tatum work out for us, but Tatum ultimately declined.
2. By and large, Ball was considered a good pick. Virtually every post-draft analysis gave us an A.
3. Tatum was considered a more questionable pick. Lots of people liked him, but there really wasn't a lot of post-draft criticism of us for taking Ball over him.
4. Obviously in hindsight Tatum was the better player. Of course in hindsight, the 76ers wouldn't have taken Fultz #1. Drafting in hindsight is super easy. |
Here's another narrative. I've provided supporting evidence in various other posts over the years:
1. Tatum idolized Kobe and dreamed of being a Laker.
2. Going into the draft Fultz was widely considered a lock at #1.
2. As the draft approached and teams started to woo prospects, Tatum got convinced that he was going #4 to Phoenix because:
- Fultz would go #1 and Tatum had had little interest in the Celtics
- Tatum thought Isaac would be in the mix for Top 3 (not sure why)
- The Lakers had showed little interest in him; Magic had instead made very public his infatuation with Ball and his faith in Ingram. The news-report VLF quoted of the Lakers widening their workouts to include Tatum came *after* all the Magic/Ball leaks and barely days before the draft. Meanwhile the following happened.
3. Well before the final week, Ainge did his due diligence and worked out all top prospects including Fultz, Tatum and Isaac. He realized Tatum was the real deal so he went "full court" on Tatum (like Magic on Ball) and wooe'd him, sold him on being a future Celtic star, made him feel wanted, told him the Celtics would take him one way or another.
AT THIS SAME TIME, when Ainge was working out and selling Tatum, Magic was very publicly wooing Ball and letting it be known that their priority was a PG.
4. Now Philly had bought into the Fultz hype and approached Ainge to see if they could trade up to get Fultz. Ainge saw his chance for a double whammy. He knew the Lakers would take Ball, and he knew Philly would take Fultz at #1.
He used this info to further convince Tatum's camp that Tatum was the Lakers/Philly's second choice *at best*, any further workouts would be a waste of time because both Lakers/Philly preferred others over him.
The rest, as they say, is history.
The issue is NOT that the Lakers could have picked Tatum in that draft, Boston had pole position. The issue is that the Lakers' draft process was ABYSMAL - at the minimum they could have forced Boston's hand and made them pick Tatum at #1. They broke every rule of smart drafting (especially when contrasted with what Ainge did - which makes me puke because I detest Ainge):
- rampant leaks of information
- public sales pitch directed at ONE player that demotivated other prospects
- open kimonos while other GM's played poker
- complete lack of awareness of how other teams were strategizing |
Magic's big mouth was not the right choice. at least Pelinka works stealth. |
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BirdMagicLegend
Starting Rotation
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | BirdMagicLegend wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | In a vacuum, yes. It might have been a historically bad blunder but you have to look at team construction also. Lakers don't have the genius of Brad Stevens when it comes to constructing a good roster. More likely than not, Tatum is stuck carrying a heavy offensive load without guys like Brown, Horford, White, etc. You can't just blindly say they'd be a championship team with Tatum without factoring in all the other pieces. |
Genius of Brad Stevens? Don't forget Danny Ainge.
This team was mostly Ainge's genius when it comes to team construction like 80%. He got Tatum, Brown, Smart, Timelord, Pritchard.
Stevens filled in the gaps with Horford and Theis back again and White while getting rid of Kemba a weak link. |
I agree with you to a certain extent. I can certainly give Ainge credit for past acquisitions, but I'd say the current team has more of Brad Stevens' DNA and imprint all over it. Ainge went for the bigger names (Kyrie, Hayward, Kemba, etc) and it didn't quite work out. Brad was willing to stick with building around Tatum and Brown, while surrounding them with nice complementary pieces and an unproven head coach. Al Horford saved their butts vs the Bucks, and Derrick White balled out vs the Warriors in game 1. When it comes to team building philosophy, I've always felt it's the "little guys" who end up helping playoff teams the most (Alvarado, White, Horford, etc). Lakers have routinely gone for the big names when keeping Caruso and/or BroLo would have sufficed. It's hard to believe this same Celtics team was .500 at one point (29-29) I think. |
Wait what?
Ainge went for the bigger names? You realize Ainge drafted Tatum, Brown, Smart, Timelord, Pritchard right? Of course Stevens also had input as the coach but Ainge was a big part of drafting these players who are now the foundation of this team.
You are crazy if you believe that Brad Stevens came in just this year as GM and built the team in one season from scratch.
The Kyrie trade was a no brainer at the time because he traded a hobbled IT, a bench player and a late pick for Kyrie who was unhappy in Cleveland. Ainge added Hayward and they might have won a championship that year if Hayward doesn't have that freak accident where he's out for the season. You could also say Hayward was a Stevens pickup because he coached Hayward in college and they both talked about unfinished business.
Horford was a Celtic before so they just brought him back while shedding Kemba Walker. I'll give Stevens credit for this sure but Ainge actually gets most of the credit for this team. Stevens just came in this year and put on some finishing touches and found a great replacement coach in Ime Udoka.
I should know. I'm a Celtics fan and have been following the team for years.
_________________
"Larry, you only told me one lie. You said there will be another Larry Bird. Larry, there will never, ever be another Larry Bird." — Magic Johnson |
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Runway8
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 22882
Location: La Jolla, San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| BI and Tatum could be doing for the Lakers what Brown and Tatum are for the Celtics. But Magic and Pelinka were motivated with D'Lo hate, you know Byron was in Magic's ears. So they were very very very eager to take Lonzo Ball. Celtics didn't even have a lotto pick in 2015. That's our D'Lo year. But the Maginka regime was hell bent on trading everyone, so this Tatum thing is moot. |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
<snip>
1. The Lakers negotiated to have Tatum work out for us, but Tatum ultimately declined.
2. By and large, Ball was considered a good pick. Virtually every post-draft analysis gave us an A.
3. Tatum was considered a more questionable pick. Lots of people liked him, but there really wasn't a lot of post-draft criticism of us for taking Ball over him.
4. Obviously in hindsight Tatum was the better player. Of course in hindsight, the 76ers wouldn't have taken Fultz #1. Drafting in hindsight is super easy. |
Here's another narrative. I've provided supporting evidence in various other posts over the years:
1. Tatum idolized Kobe and dreamed of being a Laker.
2. Going into the draft Fultz was widely considered a lock at #1.
2. As the draft approached and teams started to woo prospects, Tatum got convinced that he was going #4 to Phoenix because:
- Fultz would go #1 and Tatum had had little interest in the Celtics
- Tatum thought Isaac would be in the mix for Top 3 (not sure why)
- The Lakers had showed little interest in him; Magic had instead made very public his infatuation with Ball and his faith in Ingram. The news-report VLF quoted of the Lakers widening their workouts to include Tatum came *after* all the Magic/Ball leaks and barely days before the draft. Meanwhile the following happened.
3. Well before the final week, Ainge did his due diligence and worked out all top prospects including Fultz, Tatum and Isaac. He realized Tatum was the real deal so he went "full court" on Tatum (like Magic on Ball) and wooe'd him, sold him on being a future Celtic star, made him feel wanted, told him the Celtics would take him one way or another.
AT THIS SAME TIME, when Ainge was working out and selling Tatum, Magic was very publicly wooing Ball and letting it be known that their priority was a PG.
4. Now Philly had bought into the Fultz hype and approached Ainge to see if they could trade up to get Fultz. Ainge saw his chance for a double whammy. He knew the Lakers would take Ball, and he knew Philly would take Fultz at #1.
He used this info to further convince Tatum's camp that Tatum was the Lakers/Philly's second choice *at best*, any further workouts would be a waste of time because both Lakers/Philly preferred others over him.
The rest, as they say, is history.
The issue is NOT that the Lakers could have picked Tatum in that draft, Boston had pole position. The issue is that the Lakers' draft process was ABYSMAL - at the minimum they could have forced Boston's hand and made them pick Tatum at #1. They broke every rule of smart drafting (especially when contrasted with what Ainge did - which makes me puke because I detest Ainge):
- rampant leaks of information
- public sales pitch directed at ONE player that demotivated other prospects
- open kimonos while other GM's played poker
- complete lack of awareness of how other teams were strategizing |
That's what you get with Magic. He's a motor mouth and an attention slut. He can't keep anything close to the vest.
But look at the plus side. If Boston had kept the #1 pick and taken Tatum, we might have taken Fultz instead of Ball. |
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activeverb
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Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| mad55557777 wrote: | | hydrohead wrote: | you know who would not have passed on Tatum?
Jerry West
You know who was begging to be part of the franchise when Jeanie took over?
Jerry West
Instead she was conned by Magic who ended up quitting a job he didn’t even work hard at. |
while Jerry west was great and all, his record of drafting was pretty bad. |
Huh?
West had a great drafting record. He constantly found gems late in the draft. |
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epic_
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Joined: 23 Jan 2020
Posts: 11310
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Hope Tatum feels the pressure and keeps missing shots. Just need his teammate to miss shots too to keep his assists down.
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Runway8
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Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 22882
Location: La Jolla, San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | hydrohead wrote: | you know who would not have passed on Tatum?
Jerry West
You know who was begging to be part of the franchise when Jeanie took over?
Jerry West
Instead she was conned by Magic who ended up quitting a job he didn’t even work hard at. |
while Jerry west was great and all, his record of drafting was pretty bad. |
Huh?
West had a great drafting record. He constantly found gems late in the draft. |
The Buss children are finding gems late in the draft. I don't put a lot of stock in this. These are no pressure picks. People don't remember the misses. But I do. I was excited about the Sam Jacobsen and the Frankie Kings. LOL! I'm pretty sure JW draft record wouldn't look that different from most GM's. He wanted Sidney Moncrief over Magic. In Memphis, he admitted to making a mistake in Drew Gooden at #4 over Amare. JW benefitted from Magic Johnson's elevator up. But the Shaq/Kobe summer cemented his legend. You need to be good, but as Chick used to say, "If you're both good and lucky, watch out!" |
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Vancouver Fan
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Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 17740
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Again, it's a No because we would've traded him.
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