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| Was passing on Tatum the biggest draft blunder in the history of the Lakers? |
| yes |
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43% |
[ 14 ] |
| no |
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56% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 32 |
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Aeneas Hunter
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 Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| CandyCanes wrote: | How do you guys rank Tatum, Jaylen Brown, and Ingram?
Jaylen Brown was taken #3 in the same draft as Ingram. We could have had the Tatum/Brown duo. |
Ingram is coming along, but he sometimes gets overrated because he plays in New Orleans and puts up a lot of counting numbers. That's what Ming's numbers show you. He uses the old NBA Efficiency stat, which literally adds up all of the counting numbers. So you see the "putting up numbers on a bad team" effect with Ingram.
Here are some modern single-number metrics. RAPTOR: Tatum +5.8, Brown +2.5, Ingram +0.8. RAPM: Tatum +4.29, Brown +2.27, Ingram +1.66. DPM: Tatum +5.6, Brown +4, Ingram +2.5. That looks about right to me. Tatum is operating at an MVP candidate level. Ingram is doing well, but he needs to make another leap to get in the discussion with Tatum. Brown is somewhere in the middle.
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deal
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | IF we had Tatum, BI, Kuz, and Hart the year LeBron signed + another max amount worth of cap space, no way in hell they would've traded them for AD. I understand why people say that but Tatum was taking to LeBron just weeks before that and presumably he would have shown out the same way as a Laker. LeBron/BI/Tatum would've been great enough for an WCF push if healthy and at that point, LeBron and Lakers more than likely go one more contracts til AD became unrestricted FA.
I could be dead wrong but I just think JT showed enough to be either untouchable or enough of a building block by himself to go for AD. Hindsight is 20/20 but imagine had they waited til AD was a FA and then added him to that core.
Anyway, Tatum is quickly becoming my favorite player and wish we had seen that he and BI could've flourished into together. Good lord. |
Yeah the entire, they would have traded him is
speculation. We would have been in a different
position with Tatum.
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MJST
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | | IF we had Tatum, BI, Kuz, and Hart the year LeBron signed + another max amount worth of cap space, no way in hell they would've traded them for AD. |
That doesn't matter. Because the Lakers would have.
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King Kleazy
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Tatum played well enough early that he would’ve been viewed differently but us and NOP, so at that point the foolish front office would’ve had to decide whether to make him untouchable….or Lebron for that matter.
Whether we’re winning at a better rate would’ve been a factor as well. DLO acting out right around that time hurt, as were technically didn’t need a point guard, but most here feel for the hometown guy. I hated that decision, but admittedly saw Tatum’s time in college as more of a fit to my play style preference.
The younger players were all playing selfish amongst each other to be the next LA top option, and Boston had less talent in that regard, where their three picks had a clear pecking order.
Maybe they trade him, maybe they hold him out and wait on AD, who knows BUT kobe saw it in him and our front office situation was so terrible to make the correct decision |
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| King Kleazy wrote: |
<snip>
Maybe they trade him, maybe they hold him out and wait on AD, who knows
<snip>
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Yes! All these absolutely definitive hindsight conclusions are so utterly flawed: they change one huge variable in history and then go on to assume that everything else, down to every little detail, would have happened the exact same way. Yes I get that this is a message-board so it's fun to argue possibilities/probabilities, I just don't give credence to "well Y would still have happened so who cares if X happened or not" definitive conclusions. |
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epic_
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | King Kleazy wrote: |
<snip>
Maybe they trade him, maybe they hold him out and wait on AD, who knows
<snip>
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Yes! All these absolutely definitive hindsight conclusions are so utterly flawed: they change one huge variable in history and then go on to assume that everything else, down to every little detail, would have happened the exact same way. Yes I get that this is a message-board so it's fun to argue possibilities/probabilities, I just don't give credence to "well Y would still have happened so who cares if X happened or not" definitive conclusions. |
I agree. This thread is pointless.
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BirdMagicLegend
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 7:39 am Post subject: |
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I think the main point is back then, Laker fans were overrating Ball buying into the hype that he could be the next Jason Kidd all star or even Michael Jordan (like his dad was saying??)  .
Definitely Laker fans were comparing Ingram vs Tatum before BI was traded and saying how much better Ingram was.
Now we see more objective takes on these three players because none of them play for LA.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| BirdMagicLegend wrote: | I think the main point is back then, Laker fans were overrating Ball buying into the hype that he could be the next Jason Kidd all star or even Michael Jordan (like his dad was saying??) .
Definitely Laker fans were comparing Ingram vs Tatum before BI was traded and saying how much better Ingram was.
Now we see more objective takes on these three players because none of them play for LA. |
When you talk about Laker fans buying into the hype, you realize that you're painting with a really broad brush, right? There was no shortage of skeptics, even back then. The loudest voices tend to drown out everything else. I'm sure that's true on the Celtics boards, just like everywhere else.
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BirdMagicLegend
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BirdMagicLegend wrote: | I think the main point is back then, Laker fans were overrating Ball buying into the hype that he could be the next Jason Kidd all star or even Michael Jordan (like his dad was saying??) .
Definitely Laker fans were comparing Ingram vs Tatum before BI was traded and saying how much better Ingram was.
Now we see more objective takes on these three players because none of them play for LA. |
When you talk about Laker fans buying into the hype, you realize that you're painting with a really broad brush, right? There was no shortage of skeptics, even back then. The loudest voices tend to drown out everything else. I'm sure that's true on the Celtics boards, just like everywhere else. |
Sure I know there were skeptics but the overwhelming majority on this forum fell into the hype for Ball but I didn't think he would live up to those expectations or even come close.
On the Celtics board, most of us fell into the hype for Tatum but that has turned out to be valid. I saw potential in Brown but many fans were lukewarm on him at the time or cautiously optimistic. I always liked Smart but Celtics fans have been split on him for years.
Do you have any real examples of Celtics fans falling into the hype of a player that turned out to a huge disappointment?
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King Kleazy
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | King Kleazy wrote: |
<snip>
Maybe they trade him, maybe they hold him out and wait on AD, who knows
<snip>
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Yes! All these absolutely definitive hindsight conclusions are so utterly flawed: they change one huge variable in history and then go on to assume that everything else, down to every little detail, would have happened the exact same way. Yes I get that this is a message-board so it's fun to argue possibilities/probabilities, I just don't give credence to "well Y would still have happened so who cares if X happened or not" definitive conclusions. |
Nothing i said was definitive or flawed, i merely stated that bad decisions were taken in that draft based on poor influence in the FO. Then i said they would’ve had a different set of circumstances play out with having gone in the proper direction, which allows them a new set of criteria.
No different than playing cards, where you don’t operate your strategy on the same set of dealt cards. If all our young players came in blazing and we win the chip in brons first season, do we trade for AD……. HELL NO. Obviously you can reply my point being flawed today because you are speaking on today and not the topic of THIS THREAD, repercussion of passing on Tatum.
We made the wrong draft decision….PERIOD. Magic should’ve walked away after seeing lonzos bad workout or at the least do better diligence in other players at the top of the board. He obviously saw lonzo thru his 1978 lens and was also influenced by local fans and finessed by Lavar. |
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socalsp3
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| if magic drafted tatum he would have screwed the celts |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| BirdMagicLegend wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BirdMagicLegend wrote: | I think the main point is back then, Laker fans were overrating Ball buying into the hype that he could be the next Jason Kidd all star or even Michael Jordan (like his dad was saying??) .
Definitely Laker fans were comparing Ingram vs Tatum before BI was traded and saying how much better Ingram was.
Now we see more objective takes on these three players because none of them play for LA. |
When you talk about Laker fans buying into the hype, you realize that you're painting with a really broad brush, right? There was no shortage of skeptics, even back then. The loudest voices tend to drown out everything else. I'm sure that's true on the Celtics boards, just like everywhere else. |
Sure I know there were skeptics but the overwhelming majority on this forum fell into the hype for Ball but I didn't think he would live up to those expectations or even come close.
On the Celtics board, most of us fell into the hype for Tatum but that has turned out to be valid. I saw potential in Brown but many fans were lukewarm on him at the time or cautiously optimistic. I always liked Smart but Celtics fans have been split on him for years.
Do you have any real examples of Celtics fans falling into the hype of a player that turned out to a huge disappointment? |
What you mean is that the loudest voices on this forum fell into the hype for Ball. That's a problem with social media in general. As for the Celtics, I don't go to your message boards and don't really follow your team any more than I follow any other team. Sorry. I do know that y'all have drafted well over the last ten years or so.
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BirdMagicLegend
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BirdMagicLegend wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BirdMagicLegend wrote: | I think the main point is back then, Laker fans were overrating Ball buying into the hype that he could be the next Jason Kidd all star or even Michael Jordan (like his dad was saying??) .
Definitely Laker fans were comparing Ingram vs Tatum before BI was traded and saying how much better Ingram was.
Now we see more objective takes on these three players because none of them play for LA. |
When you talk about Laker fans buying into the hype, you realize that you're painting with a really broad brush, right? There was no shortage of skeptics, even back then. The loudest voices tend to drown out everything else. I'm sure that's true on the Celtics boards, just like everywhere else. |
Sure I know there were skeptics but the overwhelming majority on this forum fell into the hype for Ball but I didn't think he would live up to those expectations or even come close.
On the Celtics board, most of us fell into the hype for Tatum but that has turned out to be valid. I saw potential in Brown but many fans were lukewarm on him at the time or cautiously optimistic. I always liked Smart but Celtics fans have been split on him for years.
Do you have any real examples of Celtics fans falling into the hype of a player that turned out to a huge disappointment? |
What you mean is that the loudest voices on this forum fell into the hype for Ball. That's a problem with social media in general. As for the Celtics, I don't go to your message boards and don't really follow your team any more than I follow any other team. Sorry. I do know that y'all have drafted well over the last ten years or so. |
No that's not social media in general. I'm talking about Lakersground in particular as I was there too and remember many topics about how good Ball was.
If you don't follow our message boards, I'm not sure why you would make a statement about them.
We have drafted well but we've had huge misses too. Luckily it's looking good so far for our starters who were drafted.
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King Kleazy
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| You all have definitely not drafted well outside of Tatum and brown. I’m not even sure of how to view Williams & Pritchard other than good fits for the situation, but given their spot I’ll go along. Boston had a laundry list of yabusele, ojeleye, zizic, RJ Hunter level picks that were horrible. |
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| King Kleazy wrote: | | ThePageDude wrote: | | King Kleazy wrote: |
<snip>
Maybe they trade him, maybe they hold him out and wait on AD, who knows
<snip>
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Yes! All these absolutely definitive hindsight conclusions are so utterly flawed: they change one huge variable in history and then go on to assume that everything else, down to every little detail, would have happened the exact same way. Yes I get that this is a message-board so it's fun to argue possibilities/probabilities, I just don't give credence to "well Y would still have happened so who cares if X happened or not" definitive conclusions. |
Nothing i said was definitive or flawed, i merely stated that bad decisions were taken in that draft based on poor influence in the FO. Then i said they would’ve had a different set of circumstances play out with having gone in the proper direction, which allows them a new set of criteria.
No different than playing cards, where you don’t operate your strategy on the same set of dealt cards. If all our young players came in blazing and we win the chip in brons first season, do we trade for AD……. HELL NO. Obviously you can reply my point being flawed today because you are speaking on today and not the topic of THIS THREAD, repercussion of passing on Tatum.
We made the wrong draft decision….PERIOD. Magic should’ve walked away after seeing lonzos bad workout or at the least do better diligence in other players at the top of the board. He obviously saw lonzo thru his 1978 lens and was also influenced by local fans and finessed by Lavar. |
Umm I was agreeing with your original post - not disagreeing with you. |
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King Kleazy
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Uuuuuuu My bad, my defenses been up rooting for Boston to lose with no success |
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Don Draper
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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In hindsight yes it's a massive blunder similar but not quite as bad as the Kings picking Bagley over Luka. Tatum is a half tier below Luka and Lonzo is a respectable starter unlike Bagley, but the difference in impact is similar especially given Zo's unfortunate injury proneness.
But it just goes to show how hard drafting is. Tatum over Zo was something nobody considered really, unlike Luka over Bagley. IRRC Zo's ceiling was like a better shooting taller Jason Kidd whereas people saw Tatum as a wing project who might be an allstar one day.
Zo was brought in ostensibly to replace DLO, which if we were to get LeBron still wouldn't be an issue. You could run Bron at the PG and then Ingram and Tatum at the wings. Would have been a fun team that still probably wins a chip in 2020. |
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acer77
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Congrats to Tatum on his first NBA Title. I don't see Boston losing.
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mad55557777
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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The only way we could've drafted Tatum was after Boston trade with magic, we take him without a workout. In any other scenario, Boston would’ve took him at 1.
It would be very irresponsible for magic to use the second pick on a player that never worked out for us |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| mad55557777 wrote: | The only way we could've drafted Tatum was after Boston trade with magic, we take him without a workout. In any other scenario, Boston would’ve took him at 1.
It would be very irresponsible for magic to use the second pick on a player that never worked out for us |
He did work out for us
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| acer77 wrote: | | Congrats to Tatum on his first NBA Title. I don't see Boston losing. |
Nice jinx.
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LakersRGolden
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| The only reason this would be the #1 is that it would be addition by subtraction for Foston. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| Don Draper wrote: | In hindsight yes it's a massive blunder similar but not quite as bad as the Kings picking Bagley over Luka. Tatum is a half tier below Luka and Lonzo is a respectable starter unlike Bagley, but the difference in impact is similar especially given Zo's unfortunate injury proneness.
But it just goes to show how hard drafting is. Tatum over Zo was something nobody considered really, unlike Luka over Bagley. IRRC Zo's ceiling was like a better shooting taller Jason Kidd whereas people saw Tatum as a wing project who might be an allstar one day.
Zo was brought in ostensibly to replace DLO, which if we were to get LeBron still wouldn't be an issue. You could run Bron at the PG and then Ingram and Tatum at the wings. Would have been a fun team that still probably wins a chip in 2020. |
Tatum over Zo was definitely considered by some here
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mad55557777
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | The only way we could've drafted Tatum was after Boston trade with magic, we take him without a workout. In any other scenario, Boston would’ve took him at 1.
It would be very irresponsible for magic to use the second pick on a player that never worked out for us |
He did work out for us |
https://lonzowire.usatoday.com/2018/05/31/lakers-lonzo-ball-jayson-tatum-celtics-nba-draft/
stop making things up. clipper fan
the reason they didn't is because we had BI already. |
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Don Draper wrote: |
<snip>
Tatum over Zo was something nobody considered really, unlike Luka over Bagley.
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Some some savvy posters did e.g. Mike. |
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