Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:29 pm Post subject: All this talk of Lebron sabotaging this team's future
If we rewind to the summer Luke is fired and Magic steps away, our #1 coaching option was Monty Williams. Look at the tremendous success Monty has had, who then decided to sign for James Jones (Lebron's good friend) in Phoenix. Reportedly, the Lakers' brain trust was blindsided by this because they didn't think Monty would pick Phoenix over LA.
Then their second option was Ty Lue, who's also been a great coach for the Clippers and has them playing hard, but who turned the role down due to only being offered 3 years.
Then there were rumors about the Lakers management not wanting David Griffin for GM to avoid the perception that Lebron runs the Lakers. It looks like the Lakers maybe dodged a bullet here, though Griffin ultimately pulls the trigger on the AD trade (remember him visiting the Klutch camp?), thereby indirectly helping the Lakers win the title.
Maybe in the alternate universes things go horribly differently and Vogel was actually the right guy for the job. Maybe AD and Lebron are the ultimate determinants and even if Monty became coach, he wouldn't have gotten through to them and he'd be on the hot seat right now.
Point being, Lebron's influence brought us AD and a title. His leadership and navigating peril in 2020 was all-time. I would call into question how detrimental his influence has been since, given how much of the organizational details have been worked out by management. For instance, there's no way in hell Lebron is stopping the Lakers from acquiring an actual offensive coordinator.
At absolute worst, his influence has been a mixed bag. But management's decisions have been less than satisfactory, and with the most optimistic read you might say it's been a mixed bag from 2019 to now.
People exaggerate Lebrons pull within an organization. Sure his thoughts and opinions carry a lot of weight with the team (as any franchise player these days) but his word isn’t the be all end all.
He wanted Riley to coach the Heat, they stuck with Spo.
He wanted to keep Mike Miller on the heat but was traded anyway.
He told the Cavs don’t trade Kyrie and wanted to try to work it out but Cavs had other plans.
He wanted the Cavs to trade the 8th pick in the 2018 draft, they held onto it.
People exaggerate Lebrons pull within an organization. Sure his thoughts and opinions carry a lot of weight with the team (as any franchise player these days) but his word isn’t the be all end all.
He wanted Riley to coach the Heat, they stuck with Spo.
He wanted to keep Mike Miller on the heat but was traded anyway.
He told the Cavs don’t trade Kyrie and wanted to try to work it out but Cavs had other plans.
He wanted the Cavs to trade the 8th pick in the 2018 draft, they held onto it.
He only didn't have pull with the heat because of Riley and Mickey Arison. The next time he went to the Cavs, he pretty much had all the pull. Kyrie didn't wanna be there anymore. Now, that's not to say he has a lot of pull with the Lakers. I'm not sure about that. It seems so. Hope he gets us Ben Simmons and Danny Green.
People exaggerate Lebrons pull within an organization. Sure his thoughts and opinions carry a lot of weight with the team (as any franchise player these days) but his word isn’t the be all end all.
He wanted Riley to coach the Heat, they stuck with Spo.
He wanted to keep Mike Miller on the heat but was traded anyway.
He told the Cavs don’t trade Kyrie and wanted to try to work it out but Cavs had other plans.
He wanted the Cavs to trade the 8th pick in the 2018 draft, they held onto it.
A lot of this stuff is pretty complicated.
With Kyrie, for example, there were reports that the Cavs traded him only after Lebron declined to commit to coming back. It's possible the Cavs (meaning Gilbert) saw the writing on the wall that Lebron was leaving, so they didn't see a need to appease him.
While Monty has done a good job this season, he should not get credit for a championship he did not win. Vogel won that ring in 2020, and it was due to in large part that #1 defense. Again, last season, we don't win games without both AD/Bron, without that #1 defense. There would be no play in if our D was not good.
This year, remains to be seen. Right now not looking good, but if Vogel finds a way to once again get some defense out of this group and turn it around, this whole talk about the other candidates .... come on. Not like their teams won (bleep). Lakers you are defined by rings, as Kobe always said. Even getting to the Finals, not good enough.
Vogel won, and deserves some credit. Just like everyone now suddenly loves KCP and Caruso, I bet the moment someone else would snatch up Vogel, and he designs a #1 D again, everyone here would be upset about that.
It is simpler than any of this. Lakers signed LBJ and are trying to maximize his limited time left. Unfortunately they are trying the quick fix which usually doesn't work (see Kobe, Dwight, Nash). It is the price you pay for grabbing a superstar with limited shelf life.
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:26 am Post subject: Re: All this talk of Lebron sabotaging this team's future
levon wrote:
Point being, Lebron's influence brought us AD and a title. His leadership and navigating peril in 2020 was all-time. I would call into question how detrimental his influence has been since, given how much of the organizational details have been worked out by management. For instance, there's no way in hell Lebron is stopping the Lakers from acquiring an actual offensive coordinator.
At absolute worst, his influence has been a mixed bag. But management's decisions have been less than satisfactory, and with the most optimistic read you might say it's been a mixed bag from 2019 to now.
What do you all think?
Your post is not a model of clarity. However, based on these comments, I am guessing that you are arguing that the fault lies with Pelinka and not Lebron. There's a whole thread about Rob Pelinka in which people are debating that premise. But what the heck. Here's my opinion, which you can accept or reject as you see fit.
You can find a great deal of fault in each of the players in this story. Jeanie Buss is not qualified to oversee the basketball side of the operation, but her father made the sentimental decision to leave his kids in charge of the team. Jeanie's main objective appeared to be getting rid of Jim and becoming the full successor to her father on both sides of the organization, which she did. But she still wasn't qualified on the basketball side. So she turned to a couple Laker legends who were wholly unqualified to run the team: Magic and Kobe. Magic jumped at the opportunity. Kobe had the good sense to take a pass, but he referred her to his former agent. Pelinka was unqualified, but less unqualified than Magic or Kobe.
So basically, the team wound up being run by an unqualified owner, an unqualified president of basketball operations, and an unqualified GM. So what do they do? They turn the show over to Team Lebron. Jeanie thinks that this is huge win, because the Lakers are supposed to be all about stars. But it gets off to a lousy start, as Magic and Pelinka bungle their way into tampering issues, while Lebron gets hurt.
Meanwhile Team Lebron is at work. Lebron exploits the tampering loophole and lines up Davis. It becomes the job of Magic, Pelinka, and Rich Paul to get the deal done. Rich Paul gets heavy handed (as usual) and pisses off the Pelicans (and probably most of the other GMs in the league). Magic and Pelinka try to get a deal done, but they have no real leverage. The deal doesn't happen, at least not right away. Meanwhile, Magic and Pelinka have been dreaming of signing big name free agents, so they make a bunch of boneheaded moves to clear cap space. Then Magic embarrasses himself and everyone else by quitting in about the most tone-deaf manner imaginable.
A few months later, Pelinka manages to complete the Davis trade, though he overpays because he has no leverage. He gets played by Kawhi, then makes a few moves of varying degrees of quality. The team looks like a contender, but not a lock to win a title. But then the pandemic hits. This turns out to be a blessing in disguise, because it gives Lebron and Davis a few months of rest. The playoffs take place in the bubble, which is a big advantage for another reason: there is no travel. Lebron doesn't have to fly across the country during the playoffs. A lot of people overlook the significance of this. So we win a title.
Now, you need to decide whether that title justifies everything else. There is a reasonable argument that it does. We went from a losing team with a bunch of kids to a contender and champion. For some people, that justifies everything. For me, it was the minimum acceptable result.
But after that, we were left with an unqualified GM who churned the roster every season. He actually cites to Kobe for this -- that you need to get better every offseason. Well, a player can get better by working hard in the offseason. A GM may be better advised to do nothing, or at least to refrain from making big changes. Anyway, I'm not convinced that Pelinka has any vision or plan for the team. He seems to be the subject of the John Wooden quote, in that he mistakes activity for achievement.
Bringing this up to the current day, I was not impressed with the proposed Buddy Hield trade. I would have been okay with it, but not enthusiastic. Hield would have helped our floor spacing, but he's an awful defender. But then Pelinka pivoted to Westbrook, which left me dumbfounded. Was this the product of Team Lebron? I don't know. But we do know that Lebron was actively interviewing other players during the offseason.
So who's fault is it? Well, first of all, you need to decide whether there is any fault at all, given that we won the bubble title. But beyond that, we have a weak owner and a weak front office who gladly allowed Lebron to become the focal point of the team. We gave big bags of cash to clients of Team Lebron, like KCP, Harrell, and THT. We dumped assets, from Randle to Zubac to Caruso, and we often got nothing at all in return.
Are we really accomplishing anything at this point? Well, I haven't given up on this season. I still think these guys can get it together. But I have a lot of concerns for the future, because I don't think Pelinka has a vision or a plan or any particular competence. I am hoping that he makes me eat those words. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
I highly doubt that James / Klutch are intentionally trying to damage the Laker brand or chances at a ring.
I do see the overall situation as co-dependent. Laker ownership and front office knew exactly what they were doing by bringing in James. They are using his celebrity and on court status just as much as he is using the Lakers to advance his own legacy.
This has always been a race against James’ certain decline. The discussions of “millions spent to preserve his body”, “ load management” , “getting him help” are all ways to prolong the the money train and relevance.
This year’s folly is in attempting to bring in too many vets on their last legs in the league and offensive minded players over the defensive grinders. IMO most of the roster does not have that “edge” or muscle memory to do the little things that win games. Most of the HoFers had those guys on the roster to do the dirty work for them. Not their nature.
James / Klutch are attempting to prolong and build an NBA empire. The Lakers are just the latest team he is using as he races against retirement. Going to be interesting to see which path wins out, a chase for another Championship or for James’ hunt for all time scoring leader and personal legacy. Not sure they can be both achieved simultaneously.
No one is purposely trying to “sabotage “ the outcome. It is just the path they all chose four year’s ago that just keeps having less and less appealing options. Until we find ourselves backed into a corner, disappointed with this team and still hoping for “health and chemistry” 20 games into the season.
I said a while ago, the team isn't just getting Lebron; they are also getting the baggage associated with him, for better or for worse. Under no circumstances should a player have more sway than the GM. It wasn't the case with Jordan; it wasn't the case with Kobe; it shouldn't be the case with Bron. Rob isn't the genius everyone thinks he is. The team would have been much better off keeping KCP and Caruso. Why fix what isn't broken?
IMHO, the next few months will determine where the ship goes and whether it's time to rebuild or not.
Again, where is the evidence? I know in this postmodern, post-truth era you can just say whatever you want and pretend it is a fact, but there's still those of us out there who want evidence in support of arguments.
Aeneas, as usual, makes the most reasoned case for the state of affairs. In other words, all parties are culpable in some ways, but also everyone got what they wanted (which doesn't necessarily need to align with what the fans want).
At the end of the day, however, Lebron is not the GM, nor the owner of the team, and whatever power he may or may not have in decision making has been granted to him by others absolving themselves of any responsibility.
Jeanie is the owner, and ultimately the one responsible for every decision. She doesn't need to be the sharpest basketball mind in the organization, but she certainly has the money and resources to get the best basketball minds in the world to work for her. She didn't do this--as AH reminds us, she went to her two basketball pals, Magic and Kobe, for basketball advice. All time great players, but maybe not all time great in basketball analytics and management.
As for Russ, again, until someone does some actual investigative journalism (unlikely in this day and age), we're not going to know the truth of how everything transpired. It was as likely a Jeanie thinking more stars means more wins naivety that got the move made as it was Lebron's decision. It may have been driven by the need to replace an often injured Lebron. That, in and of itself wouldn't have been the worst idea. It was the execution around building a roster around the Big 3 where everything faltered.
At the end of the day does it matter? The Lakers got their post Kobe championship. Tied up the Celtics. Won it the year Kobe died. If it was luck, a fluke, whatever, doesn't matter. It happened. Now they ride it out till the end of the Lebron era, and rebuild. Hopefully Jeanie decides to sell and rides off into the sunset as a billionaire. The Lakers will probably get snatched up by the Guggenheim brain trust (as the largest minority owners with right of first refusal on a sale, I believe), and they'll install modern professionals in the FO and the team will start to be run in the same way other modern, successful franchises are. All the pissing and moaning and finger pointing won't change any of this. We are a few years removed from the owner of the team publicly sniping at her own brother and leaking salacious details to the media to push him out. It was probably the right move to get rid of Jim, but the fact that the team's controlling owner is prone to drama and theatrics and back stabbing as a management style should tell everyone that the results we see on the court shouldn't be surprising and that nothing will change so long as the Buss children are still in the picture.
Wish away Lebron all you want, but the same owner would still coddle and kowtow to any other star's demands and the team would be run in the same dysfunctional manner.
I said a while ago, the team isn't just getting Lebron; they are also getting the baggage associated with him, for better or for worse. Under no circumstances should a player have more sway than the GM. It wasn't the case with Jordan; it wasn't the case with Kobe; it shouldn't be the case with Bron.
Again, look at the difference in owners; the Bulls and Lakers had "the bucks stops with me" owners that took responsibility and held firm against star demands. Jeannie has always been buddies with the team's stars--this doesn't lend itself to good management.
It is just like children--no structure, no discipline, and they'll just push and push and do what they want as long as their are no consequences.
Without strong ownership, the whole thing falls apart. And right now Lebron is the only thing keeping this franchise somewhat afloat (don't think AD and his bouts of apathy would be putting pressure on the FO to improve).
It is very simple: the Buss family should have hired people much smarter than themselves to find the best basketball minds in the world (along with the best training staff, that would help too). Then they should have paid the same kind of money they paid for talent on the court to get those people. And then they could sit back and look really smart while the actually smart people did the hard work of building a basketball club. And then they might also want to empower those people to put limits on player control of the team. So it isn't Lebron--it has always been an ownership issue. Period.
I highly doubt that James / Klutch are intentionally trying to damage the Laker brand or chances at a ring.
I do see the overall situation as co-dependent. Laker ownership and front office knew exactly what they were doing by bringing in James. They are using his celebrity and on court status just as much as he is using the Lakers to advance his own legacy.
People are being emotional.
Obviously, Lebron wanted the team to succeed, and he was pushing for moves that he thought would enable the team to succeed.
One of the big issues is that various forces, with varying degrees of power, were pushing for what they wanted, or trying to accommodate what others wanted. So no one's hand was steering the rudder. So rather than some vision of what the team should be, we ended up with a team assembled in a whack-a-mole fashion.
Westbrook is available? ... Let's trade for him! ... We don't have any wings? ... Let's sign every veteran minimum player we can find, and let it sort itself out!
Partly, this is Lebron's fault, because he is just taking the power the Lakers are giving him and whacking the moles as they come up.
Partly, it's Ron Paul's fault, because he is a whack-a-mole guy in a whack-a-mole job.
Partly, it's Jeanie's fault because she created a situation that led to and even encouraged whack-a-mole thinking.
Partly, it's Rob's fault, because he is inexperienced and in over his head, so he doesn't know how to channel the whack-a-mole thinking into a strategy.
LeBron is a lot older and more powerful than he was earlier in his career.
Plus Jeanie isn't exactly a Pat Riley like force of nature.
It's mind boggling that people think Jeanie and Rob run the team.
What evidence do you have to support any of these claims?
When LBJ was young he made do with players like Varejao and Ilgauskas
When he got older he teamed up with Wade and Bosh.
By the time he got to Cleveland 2.0 he was trading out entire lineups.
When he wasn't happy with our kids they all were sent out to clear room for AD, a Klutch client.
When we were about to trade for Hield, we did a 360 and traded for Westbrook not long after he started following Russ's wife on Instagram,
But sure, if you want to believe Jeanie's in the war room all day spitballing ideas with Rob as they pass along their decrees to LBJ and Rich, knock yourself out.
None of this is 100% irrefutable concrete evidence but as Bob Dylan once said you don't need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind blows.
I choose to believe he is the primary decision maker.
If you want to believe Jeanie is coming up with these personnel ideas... that is your right.
I highly doubt that James / Klutch are intentionally trying to damage the Laker brand or chances at a ring.
I do see the overall situation as co-dependent. Laker ownership and front office knew exactly what they were doing by bringing in James. They are using his celebrity and on court status just as much as he is using the Lakers to advance his own legacy.
People are being emotional.
Obviously, Lebron wanted the team to succeed, and he was pushing for moves that he thought would enable the team to succeed.
One of the big issues is that various forces, with varying degrees of power, were pushing for what they wanted, or trying to accommodate what others wanted. So no one's hand was steering the rudder. So rather than some vision of what the team should be, we ended up with a team assembled in a whack-a-mole fashion.
Westbrook is available? ... Let's trade for him! ... We don't have any wings? ... Let's sign every veteran minimum player we can find, and let it sort itself out!
Partly, this is Lebron's fault, because he is just taking the power the Lakers are giving him and whacking the moles as they come up.
Partly, it's Ron Paul's fault, because he is a whack-a-mole guy in a whack-a-mole job.
Partly, it's Jeanie's fault because she created a situation that led to and even encouraged whack-a-mole thinking.
Partly, it's Rob's fault, because he is inexperienced and in over his head, so he doesn't know how to channel the whack-a-mole thinking into a strategy.
I think you can reasonably argue that Vogel's weaknesses informed Rob's needs for teambuilding, at least to some extent. The staff isn't without fault (yes, yes I know, who hired them in the first place). For example, we have all of this wistfulness about KCP and Kuzma, but we're forgetting that they were the models of complete offensive inconsistency throughout their Lakers tenure. We're also underplaying the Lakers' offensive struggles last year, where they would go 7 minutes at a time without scoring.
Rob's plan makes sense on the surface: bring offensive firepower to be an alternative to Lebronball. I think Lebron himself has asked for this. The Clippers have that, the Nets have that, hell even the Mavs have that with THJ and Seth Curry prior. Hence giving up a really valuable piece in Danny Green + a pick for Schroeder, and we know the rest of the story.
But I'd argue that if the coaching staff was able to instill an offensive identity, there wouldn't have been so much major churn on this roster. To me, the weakness of the staff in the offensive department has become blatantly obvious this year since the Lakers are so much worse on that end than even the most pessimistic predictions from NBA thinkers. And that has led me to reconsider just how much of our troubles in years prior were due to roster construction.
Of course, letting Caruso go was objectively a bad move.
I think you and other posters have pointed out that this is a blame pie. I'm not necessarily saying that party X gets a much bigger slice than the rest. But I'm trying to assess the results of Lebron's influence--and to the degree possible extrapolate his potential moves that didn't come to fruition--and any way I slice it, I don't see his influence as any worse than that of the non-player personnel in this organization.
Klutch has damaged this team, we lost good utility players to prioritize their clients.
Isn’t KCP a Klutch client?
Trezz as well. Two klutch clients went out for a non-Klutch guy. If it were all klutch, then we would have traded for Wall.
I think this was simply about AD/Bron wanting a 3rd star. They may have seen something in the playoffs last year that made them feel they needed this 3rd player that can create that can do things.
I don't think AD/Bron cared about what the exact specs of the trade were or what the post-trade roster would be. That was Rob's job. Rob made the trade, which is the only way you can make one. I am actually ok with the WB trade in terms of value. WB is an elite player at what he does. He is still a guy that defenses need to scheme to stop. What I'm not sure I was ever ok with was letting Carushow go over THT and not looking to get better other ways. We didn't prioritize perimeter D, even though it is clearly a strength of our ring team with Danny Green, KCP and Carushow. You put those 3 and AD/Bron together in one lineup, you have an elite D right away. So we needed to look at that aspect and did not.
I've tried to remain positive about all the changes, but the perimeter D really shows. The Lakers didn't value their perimeter D or overerestimated what perimeter D they would get from guys like Baze, Ellington, Monk, Melo etc.
The problem is we won with Lebron and AD + good perimeter defenders. We were built that way with 2 athletic bigs in Dwight + Javale. When we did go small we had Kieff who is tough as hell.
Our team now is built more offensively, but our coach is still trying to play as if we are the 2020 team.
Lebron and Ad have also just not been consistent enough.
Our championship coach and 2 Superstars need to be better. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Russ will have his good and bad but he’ll play with effort and hasn’t been that bad lately. But with him…we cannot play Deandre AT ALL.
Our team now is built more offensively, but our coach is still trying to play as if we are the 2020 team.
You see I disagree here. I see the Lakers trying to push pace. We're what top 3 in pace? I think 2nd in the league in pace, 5th in the league in points. But per possessions we're bad.
In the ring season LA was 11th in pace, 11th in points and 11th in per possessions effeciency. So that's a balanced rating. That's Vogel offense.
This is a style that Vogel has never implemented before in Indiana or here. I think Fizdale is the one being brought in to run some of this. The Lakers are 2nd in pace, 5th in points per, but 23rd in per possessions effeciency.
So if you mean he's trying to play the same way as 2020, I don't see it. For sure one could argue he's not the right coach for a pace & space team.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29354 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:15 am Post subject:
Championships aren't won in November.
I am nowhere near panic mode. Now if we aren't healthy come April. That's a different story. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Our team now is built more offensively, but our coach is still trying to play as if we are the 2020 team.
You see I disagree here. I see the Lakers trying to push pace. We're what top 3 in pace? I think 2nd in the league in pace, 5th in the league in points. But per possessions we're bad.
In the ring season LA was 11th in pace, 11th in points and 11th in per possessions effeciency. So that's a balanced rating. That's Vogel offense.
This is a style that Vogel has never implemented before in Indiana or here. I think Fizdale is the one being brought in to run some of this. The Lakers are 2nd in pace, 5th in points per, but 23rd in per possessions effeciency.
So if you mean he's trying to play the same way as 2020, I don't see it. For sure one could argue he's not the right coach for a pace & space team.
Of course our pace is faster we have Westbrook. My comment was more about vogels rotations not the pace we’re playing at.
Vogel is sticking to his guns and continues to start Avery and Deandre.
Avery has been up and down but we’re literally starting games and the 3rd quarter at a handicap with how horrible Deandre has been.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
