Is it time to rebuild?
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pjiddy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:04 pm    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
Hypothetically what do we get for ad


Ben Simmons and some firsts
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deal
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it time to rebuild?

BigBallerBrand wrote:
We got our championship. Never got a parade, but whatever.

All of hate towards LeBron and AD this year, but there’s no question that they accomplished what they were supposed to do: to make the Lakers relevant again and win a title. Mission accomplished.

There is very little chance this current team makes it out of the west this year, and very unlikely we beat the east in the finals if we get that far.

Instead of blowing up when it’s too late, should we do what Boston did with pierce/Garnett and try to hoard as many picks as we can for AD and LeBron?

This is a serious question. I feel like we will ride out the season to barely get over .500, maybe make the playoffs, and go into another offseason with high turn over and have a core that is just 1 year older. Next year we might be even worse….and then it would be too late to get assets for anyone on this team



Seems we rebuild each year, let have another go around…
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:28 pm    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
Halflife wrote:
Hypothetically what do we get for ad


Ben Simmons and some firsts


Lol. If AD hit the trade market he would get a lot of interest from teams. We are just putting him in a position to fail with the personnel around him.
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Kobetan
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:45 pm    Post subject:

Judging by his skillset, I'm sure most (if not all) organisations will want AD on their team. But I doubt most will be willing to trade their star players for him.
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deal
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:06 pm    Post subject:

Kobetan wrote:
Judging by his skillset, I'm sure most (if not all) organisations will want AD on their team. But I doubt most will be willing to trade their star players for him.



Depends what star player you’re talking about. AD is a much desired
young player. I mean it would not make sense for the Mavs to trade
Luka & the Freak is a level up but there are other players out there
we could get but probably none would make us better than keeping
AD; he’s not the problem.
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Kobetan
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:15 pm    Post subject:

deal wrote:
Kobetan wrote:
Judging by his skillset, I'm sure most (if not all) organisations will want AD on their team. But I doubt most will be willing to trade their star players for him.



Depends what star player you’re talking about. AD is a much desired
young player. I mean it would not make sense for the Mavs to trade
Luka & the Freak is a level up but there are other players out there
we could get but probably none would make us better than keeping
AD; he’s not the problem.


Yep AD may not have the same motor as top guys like Giannis, but he's far from being our main problem on defense. He can only do so much individually. Now Russ is the opposite, dont know which team would want to use his services and he is a liability on defense, despite his high motor...
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deal
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:54 pm    Post subject:

Kobetan wrote:
deal wrote:
Kobetan wrote:
Judging by his skillset, I'm sure most (if not all) organisations will want AD on their team. But I doubt most will be willing to trade their star players for him.



Depends what star player you’re talking about. AD is a much desired
young player. I mean it would not make sense for the Mavs to trade
Luka & the Freak is a level up but there are other players out there
we could get but probably none would make us better than keeping
AD; he’s not the problem.


Yep AD may not have the same motor as top guys like Giannis, but he's far from being our main problem on defense. He can only do so much individually. Now Russ is the opposite, dont know which team would want to use his services and he is a liability on defense, despite his high motor...



Completely agree. It would be extremely tough to find a buyer for RW…
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:56 pm    Post subject:

Kobetan wrote:
Judging by his skillset, I'm sure most (if not all) organisations will want AD on their team. But I doubt most will be willing to trade their star players for him.


In my judgement, you are seriously undervaluing AD.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:28 pm    Post subject:

Not yet, no.
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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:18 am    Post subject:

The key is not signing LBJ and Russ to long term contracts.

I get that there's probably no escaping LBJ... but it will be horrible if we add Russ to that.

If we started again with AD/THT/Reaves... we might not make the playoffs but at least we wouldn't be suspended in perpetual mediocrity for the next five years... we could add a young star and the team would be fun to watch again.

This is taking nothing away from LBJ's greatness but he admitted himself when he got hurt last time that he felt he'd never be quite 100% and we need to accept that past this year it's doubtful he can carry a team any longer.

If we sign Russ and LBJ long term it will be watching stagnation and first round exits for the next five years.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:48 am    Post subject:

Lakers have not signed Bron or WB past 2023. They only have AD, and THT beyond that year. In theory, that's a 24-10-3 big, and a 15p-5r two way guard there that can start for your team beyond 2023. I think it's now reasonable to expect at least 15 points a game from THT, and defense (and maybe better than that in 2023).

You have cap to sign 3 starters around them + an elite bench player, or go for 1 mega max star + 2 starters. And it's not like you won't see them pick up pieces along the way (EX: Reaves). Obviously you also have the option to deal AD for a re-build package in 2023 if AD doesn't want to be part of a quick re-build.

But you need to see out Lebron until 2023. He is one of the GOAT, maybe top 3. He's still an all-star. This is not like Kobe when he was 37. Kobe was not able to play at this level, after 35, due to to the injury. When Bron actually plays, he's still one of the best players in the NBA. With AD also being one of the best bigs in the game, this is a situation still where if you get AD/Bron healthy and peaking at the right time (playoffs) and put a solid cast around them, they can win a playoff series against anyone. Issue right now is our cast around them is not doing any favors.

I understand and respect the argument that AD/Bron may never be healthy at the same time again, but we are 1-1 in this regard. In when they actually play together a full playoff game, their record is 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, 4-2 and 2-1 in the playoffs. Even if you say we lose that game 4 with AD last year, as he did play some minutes, lets go with 2-2 on that one. Can't count game 6 at all.

First get the cast around them right, give coach Vogel what he needs defensively. Get Bron healthy and peaking at the right time. Then lets see at season's end what happens.
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MJST
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:58 am    Post subject:

If you're rebuilding the player you trade is Westbrook, not AD or LeBron.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject:

Time to bring back commander Scott....the best in business




I know I know Lakers dont own theri draft picks in 2022, 2023, 2024 or 2025
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:00 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Lakers have not signed Bron or WB past 2023. They only have AD, and THT beyond that year. In theory, that's a 24-10-3 big, and a 15p-5r two way guard there that can start for your team beyond 2023. I think it's now reasonable to expect at least 15 points a game from THT, and defense (and maybe better than that in 2023).

You have cap to sign 3 starters around them + an elite bench player, or go for 1 mega max star + 2 starters. And it's not like you won't see them pick up pieces along the way (EX: Reaves). Obviously you also have the option to deal AD for a re-build package in 2023 if AD doesn't want to be part of a quick re-build.


There are a number of problems with this, but I'll limit myself to two. First, you're assuming that we don't extend Westbrook and that we don't wind up extending Lebron. Whether you agree with it or not, there's a good chance that we do one or both. Second, assuming that Lebron and Westbrook are both gone and that we have a big pile of cap space in the summer of 2023, the free agent market will be weak that summer. I posted the list elsewhere. I only intriguing name on the list is Jokic, and that seems far fetched. So we would be shopping for lesser players, which means that we would inevitably end up overpaying. So you're talking about Davis, THT, and a couple free agent starters. This is not a good scenario. We'd be a 4 or 5 seed in the playoffs, stuck in the purgatory between contention and rebuilding.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject:

No, it's not time to rebuild. We're too deep into the James/Davis era to do so. The primary issue is having replaced/traded mostly defense for offense. If we had done so while Westbrook & Carmelo were in their primes we'd be kickin' butts, but that's not the case.

For the record, hate all you want, but I'm not giving up until I see us reasonably healthy.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:29 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
If you're rebuilding the player you trade is Westbrook, not AD or LeBron.


That wouldn’t be rebuilding considering the bad contracts you would have to take back for Westbrook.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject:

I would trade Lebron and AD for a bunch of first round picks but I mean GMs learn from that Boston fleecing of the Nets. They're not gonna fall for it. Also, I would bet a million dollars Pelinka would not be able to make any favorable trades, as in getting back more in a trade.

In some ways, I'm at peace now that the Lakers have no real assets left outside of Lebron and AD for Pelinka to give away anymore. We could only go up from here?
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:55 am    Post subject:

Aeneas - I understands your concerns, but this is what the narrative is on Jeanie/Rob. They won’t wait, they want stars. So AD is the aging star now in this scenario.

2023 FA list:

Jokic
Beal
Harden
Middleton
Kyrie
Porzingis
DLO
Turner
Vucevic
Bagdonovic

Yeah you’re right. No Lebron/Durant level FA. But I don’t think there is any perfect option. At this point. With having few picks and AD, the best thing to do is keep developing THT and to bring in FAs, on good value, and then make a trade down the road.

I can’t see starting from scratch a way this team goes.

Pelinka let Rondo walk after a title. He let Dennis walk. He could let WB walk too, but it depends on what WB does the rest of the way. And before that happens, like with Dennis (shopped for Lowry) for sure we may try to get some value for WB. I don’t know where the FO stands on WB, but no way he’s getting a 90M/3 year deal based on the (bleep) show going on right now. They had a good look at the AD/WB dynamic and it was bad. I can’t see them be that foolish. WB will need to do something significant (win a title) before he got rewarded like that, IMO.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:54 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Lakers have not signed Bron or WB past 2023. They only have AD, and THT beyond that year. In theory, that's a 24-10-3 big, and a 15p-5r two way guard there that can start for your team beyond 2023. I think it's now reasonable to expect at least 15 points a game from THT, and defense (and maybe better than that in 2023).

You have cap to sign 3 starters around them + an elite bench player, or go for 1 mega max star + 2 starters. And it's not like you won't see them pick up pieces along the way (EX: Reaves). Obviously you also have the option to deal AD for a re-build package in 2023 if AD doesn't want to be part of a quick re-build.


There are a number of problems with this, but I'll limit myself to two. First, you're assuming that we don't extend Westbrook and that we don't wind up extending Lebron. Whether you agree with it or not, there's a good chance that we do one or both. Second, assuming that Lebron and Westbrook are both gone and that we have a big pile of cap space in the summer of 2023, the free agent market will be weak that summer. I posted the list elsewhere. I only intriguing name on the list is Jokic, and that seems far fetched. So we would be shopping for lesser players, which means that we would inevitably end up overpaying. So you're talking about Davis, THT, and a couple free agent starters. This is not a good scenario. We'd be a 4 or 5 seed in the playoffs, stuck in the purgatory between contention and rebuilding.


My guess is Lebron will resign for another two years after his current contract is up. If he doesn't resign, I think that will be his choice, not the Lakers.

The Lakers are all about big stars, and I don't see another big star on the horizon anytime soon. I can't see the Lakers letting Lebron, or maybe even Westbrook go, unless it will result in a big name coming in. They aren't going to rebuild until the bones on the Big Three have dissolved.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:00 pm    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
Halflife wrote:
Hypothetically what do we get for ad


Ben Simmons and some firsts


I’d do it for Brandon Ingram and three first round picks.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:09 pm    Post subject:

AD has been great. Not dominant the way we all want but he's not the issue.

We're stuck with Westbrook for this season and next. The best move is for him to be 6th man. That solves some issues. Then in 2023 you just let him opt out.

Dwight, DJ
AD, Melo, Ariza
LeBron, Reaves, Baze
Wayne*, Westbrook, Monk*
THT, Nunn

Unfortunately, I don't see that move even being a remote possibility.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:49 pm    Post subject:

Despite my grousing about Westbrook, there's no going back, so they need, and I'm sure they are, trying to make it work the best they can. I'm sure they will play better as the season goes on just as they get more familiar with each other. Whether they get to a point where their games are really complementary is a different issue.

I don't think there's a quick fix via trade. IMO the worst thing the FO can do now is a panic trade. We don't have the assets to trade for a real difference maker and what we can trade for isn't going get us over the hump and will probably cost us THT.

I'm also not sure what a new coach would do at this point. If Russ is the issue, what coach is going get him to change his game? Although if the team has really tuned out Vogel, I guess a change is warranted just prevent a real disaster of a season.

Above all, if LeBron and AD aren't healthy through the playoffs it's not going to matter who they trade for or what coach they get.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:00 pm    Post subject:

It’s funny. So many clowned AD for not being able to succeed in NO, now it’s every one else’s fault. So we are clear. AD is not a franchise player correct?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:17 pm    Post subject:

The Lebron acquisition catapulted us from lotto to champions. The Westbrook acquisition catapulted us from champions back to lotto. We're gonna be feeling it from this Westbrook trade for a few more years. Hang in there, Laker fans. This is only the beginning of the end.

Rebuild now? yes, I want to rebuild because I don't think we can build a championship contender next year given whatever assets we may have left. Bad players will be hard to get rid of. We thought we got rid of our "trash" of Kuz, KCP and AC but in reality they weren't trash at all. That's why other teams want them. This year, if this team continues on its current path, then the players will be seen as real trash and it will be difficult to move them. If we rebuilt though, all those picks we convey to New Orleans would make me lose sleep.

AD is the best asset we currently have so get as much value for him as you can. Do it Mitch!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:31 pm    Post subject:

The Lakers will stay the course. I don't think this years team performance is the coaches fault.

We have about 10 players on this team that has been shopped around the NBA multiple times.

This years team seem like someone in the FO chain hands was tied.
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