Starting AD at the 5 just doesn't work
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KingKobe20
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:34 pm    Post subject:

AD closing the game at the 5 makes sense for any matchup.

Expecting AD to dominate on both ends of the floor at center for the entire game , unrealistic.


An we can’t keep flip flopping the starting lineup. Gotta have a solid routine at some point
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cthroatgtr
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:23 pm    Post subject:

The problem is there isn't a natural PF on this roster. LBJ & Melo spent a lot of their career at SF. In today's NBA I get them at PF but if you go AD, LBJ and three guards, that is a small lineup. All teams have to do is get AD in P/R and there is nobody left at the rim.

I would start Howard, then go small. Only problem there is you still don't have the players to do it. Once AD sits then what? This roster is a joke. WTF they did they trade for WB I do not get it. Reminds me when they fired Brown for D'Antoni when you had Dwight, Pau, Meta & Kobe in the starting lineup.

If you go small you need to out shoot the other team, switch everything, double the post, etc. Team is too old and slow to play that anyways.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 pm    Post subject:

Lol AD is not the problem on defense.

It's all the wings we brought in that can't defend.

None of our 2s come close to what Caruso and KCP did defensively.

When Melo hits his 3s we get a slew of "Where are the Kuz stans??" posts, but Kuz brought the defense every night whether his shots fell or not. Melo doesn't hit his 3s, we have a D- player on the floor.

Marcus Morris was also a very capable big wing defender. We went from 2 of these (he and Kuzma) to none of these.

Last year's D was on a string and had no one to hide on defense. This year's D presents a buffet table of guys to hunt for on the switch.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:11 pm    Post subject:

cthroatgtr wrote:
The problem is there isn't a natural PF on this roster. LBJ & Melo spent a lot of their career at SF. In today's NBA I get them at PF but if you go AD, LBJ and three guards, that is a small lineup. All teams have to do is get AD in P/R and there is nobody left at the rim.

I would start Howard, then go small. Only problem there is you still don't have the players to do it. Once AD sits then what? This roster is a joke. WTF they did they trade for WB I do not get it. Reminds me when they fired Brown for D'Antoni when you had Dwight, Pau, Meta & Kobe in the starting lineup.

If you go small you need to out shoot the other team, switch everything, double the post, etc. Team is too old and slow to play that anyways.


Yeah I get that this team isn't built to play small. I don't think we're one player away but we're one type away. If Ariza could stay healthy and Baze were more consistent they'd make a nice complement. A Covington type would be ideal but we don't have the resources.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:06 pm    Post subject:

KingKobe20 wrote:
Draymond who like others have mentioned doesn’t even play center majority of the game and is probably one of the worst comparisons for AD.

Dray doesn’t have even half the offensive talent AD possesses therefore he can focus all his energy to defense. Come to think about it I don’t think Draymond has half the defensive talent of AD as well. AD right now is expected to do everything and that limits his energy on the defensive end.

Imagine if AD played with Steph and Klay.
We already know what AD is capable of accomplishing with just Lebron.


Draymond also is never player for full quarters at a time. Like versus Boston AD played the 12 minutes of game time in the first straight through, but in reality he was out there for 41 mins with commercial breaks and stoppages just that quarter before he sat. And Frank does that first and third with AD, the only guy who plays two quarters straight through without sitting. But you are expecting him to erase defensive mistakes and be the primary scorer while doing it.

AD knew his own self the best when he said don’t start me at center, let me finish there and play playoff series there by matchup. You erased Frank’s defense and ability to switch, rebound, rim protect, and run. The idea you can’t play him with another big is silly because he did just fine with Javale, Marc, and Dwight. It’s just that Harrell wasn’t a big in the sense he offered no help rim protecting or rebounding next to him and Drummond didn’t play defense while having a line backer body and putting them all tip of one another. AD also struggled with Randle in New Orleans compared to cousins when Randle was allergic to defense (which he is again this year)

Start Dwight, let AD slide down.And give AD two - three minute rests in the first and third.


Last edited by Kblo247! on Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BandwagonLBJhopper
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:09 pm    Post subject:

All we really needed to add these past few years was a quality 3 and D wing with size and athleticism. Like an Otto Porter type.

Instead we add point guards, small guards, and bigs who can’t shoot while dumping all of our youth and picks. Ugh.
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deal
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:24 pm    Post subject:

AD isn’t a 5: he doesn’t want to be a 5 but let’s force it…
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
Lol AD is not the problem on defense.

It's all the wings we brought in that can't defend.

None of our 2s come close to what Caruso and KCP did defensively.

When Melo hits his 3s we get a slew of "Where are the Kuz stans??" posts, but Kuz brought the defense every night whether his shots fell or not. Melo doesn't hit his 3s, we have a D- player on the floor.

Marcus Morris was also a very capable big wing defender. We went from 2 of these (he and Kuzma) to none of these.

Last year's D was on a string and had no one to hide on defense. This year's D presents a buffet table of guys to hunt for on the switch.


This. When you play small ball it’s on the whole team to move and cover for each other. Tough when you have a bunch of 6’1-6’3 guards instead of physically bigger guys like KCP/AC.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:53 pm    Post subject:

Bballbreakdown did a nice breakdown of Golden State's defense, and that's all achieved without Wiseman and Klay (two of their better defenders).

Obviously crisp rotations, each guy knowing their role and coverages and being mindful of their defensive assignments, Kevon Looney being a relatively mobile big who is able to switch onto wing players, Draymond and Steph barking out orders while playing defense.

AD is way better than Looney, and Bron has the defensive smarts that Draymond has (or close). Sure some of our role guys may not have good defensive instincts nor smarts, but we still have guys like AB, Baze and THT who should be quite decent.

Surely it's down to the coaching staff to create a system that fits our personnel defensive capability.
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Kblo247!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:37 pm    Post subject:

Kobetan wrote:
Bballbreakdown did a nice breakdown of Golden State's defense, and that's all achieved without Wiseman and Klay (two of their better defenders).

Obviously crisp rotations, each guy knowing their role and coverages and being mindful of their defensive assignments, Kevon Looney being a relatively mobile big who is able to switch onto wing players, Draymond and Steph barking out orders while playing defense.

AD is way better than Looney, and Bron has the defensive smarts that Draymond has (or close). Sure some of our role guys may not have good defensive instincts nor smarts, but we still have guys like AB, Baze and THT who should be quite decent.

Surely it's down to the coaching staff to create a system that fits our personnel defensive capability.


That’s not how it works. Down to his early days in Indiana Frank has always used a 1 that could pick up full court and then a 2 who was willing to be pinballed but fight through every screen and defend to set his tone for his bigs and front court. In Indiana Hill picked up and Lance was willing to get beat down. When he came to LA, the Lakers had Avery to chase you and Green to get battered, and when Bradley left they let Caruso chase you full court and KCP became the guy who was willing to run into any screen, fight through, be disciplined, funnel and contain you.

The 3 for Frank be it George or Lebrun got to play suitable defense, rotate, help, and get out to run to fourth quarters where they had to get key stops on guys their guards had ran down already. Kuzma was also used that way at times too, same with Granger and even Green in lineups where Rondo played in the bubble and closed because playoff rondo could still press you (see him stripping harden and Murray full court more than once one on one).

Frank’s scheme still worked last year because like him or not Dennis had no problem trying to shadow you full court. Then KCP did the dirty work of it all as did Caruso and Kuzma.

What hurt frank last year was his bigs in Drummond and Trez gave no damns about defense and never will. They wouldn’t rotate, rim protect, or be vertical threats you can funnel to like he would scheme for Dwight, Javale, and Hibbert. Marc could be exploited on the perimeter but our defensive numbers weren’t bad actually with him because they knew how to funnel to him and Marc would either strip you or take a charge even though he could not jump. Markieff was similar to Marc in that he can’t really jump but always got to the right spot and if you did that AD and Bron can come from weak side and help you with no problem.

Westbrook does not defend. He doesn’t even try to pick up his guy up and down the court to set a tone. He also frequently will either foul you to stop you from running over trying to get back, try to gamble for wild steals, or just outright stop rotating and defending his guy to chase a rebound as he loves to watch them for the stat sheet. Then everyone is out of wack and you are open for a long shot or put back. He’s used to Adams boxing out for him and he (bleep) if his big doesn’t just box out and let him get it, like with Capella. He’s no Jason Kidd getting triple doubles and rebounding by defending his guy greatly, hitting the glass, and then pushing it or filling a lane if Kenyon grabbed it. He’s a guy who will break your whole defense to steal a rebound.

Then you have Bradley who is not going to be used to his strength of full court pressing a guy because his athletic Uber point isn’t going to fight picks and do the dirty work KCP did, so you’re kinda stuck with Bradley getting ragged dolled there, which happened his first stint too where wings would beat him and picks would compared to Pope and Danny.

Then you take away the blanket that was AD who contained every pick and roll, rotated to shooters, and got back to help defend the glass by making him the primary 5. So when you force switch him out as an offense the goal is left unmanned and you’re then asking AD to run back there and take care of that and fight a bunch of guys for boards. You need to start him at 4 and let him slide down to maximize what he does defensively over asking him to be the center full time
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:01 pm    Post subject:

Russell Westbrook is on the team. Westbrook is going to start. If you had two shooters at PG/SG maybe starting a non shooting defensive center makes sense.

Westbrook isn't going anywhere. All the Lakers can do is try to make it work. AD/Lebron when healthy are great defensive players. If AD at center isn't working when it was clearly our best lineup since he has been here, then the team was poorly constructed.

Adding Trevor Ariza even at his old age may have a bigger impact then we might think. Just a big wing that has defense on his mind. Lakers need to be looking more wings if they become available. AD at center shouldn't be something we question. It should be our best lineup.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:21 pm    Post subject:

BandwagonLBJhopper wrote:
All we really needed to add these past few years was a quality 3 and D wing with size and athleticism. Like an Otto Porter type.

Instead we add point guards, small guards, and bigs who can’t shoot while dumping all of our youth and picks. Ugh.


It's unfathomable how we got here. Everyone and their mom knew a big 3d wing was the most crucial piece we were missing and yet they absolutely refuse to address that issue and instead tried to find solutions for GD problems that never existed. Insane.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:19 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
This and the pace.

I think need to slow the F down. So we can set up our D as well.

By having AD at the 4. We have a good close out defender on shooters and a good man defender at the 4, without losing rim protection inside. With AD at the 5, you have rim protection, but the closing out on shooters outside isn't the same and neither is the rim protection, as when AD switches on the perimeter no one can really defend the paint.

We need to slow down the offense a bit, and allow our elite 1 on 1 players to go to work to create something. Bron, AD, WB. If teams play us in a way where the 2 bigs and WB is hurting us, then we can sit WB early and bring him back in the game with the 2nd unit.

Should continue to close with AD at the 5, but outside of that context, I don't think this has shown it will work nearly as well as everyone hoped. Nor the pace helps us, nor has the extra spacing allowed for WB to fit in better. Just do what you do best, take advantage of AD's elite size and skills at the 4, 2 rim protectors and Bron's post game. If teams just zone or pack the paint, we need to be patient. Our offense is too forced. Too much pushing of speed and reliance on the 3 ball. When you have Bron, AD, WB, THT. No need to be shooting 40% of your shots from the 3.

I don't agree with the bolded. First of all, we have to play at a fast pace because we don't have the personnel to win playing slowdown basketball. Whenever we walk the ball upcourt and use the shot clock, our offense goes to sh!t.

Second, transition defense isn't really our problem. It's our halfcourt defense and all the issues there you mentioned.

To be a fastbreak team while playing good D, you need active 2-way wings with legit height, like GSW or the Showtime Lakers. We don't have that right now. Hopefully when Ariza makes his debut he has enough left in the tank, but I'm not counting on that since he's 36.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:10 am    Post subject:

I think this is an offense vs defense debate.

When AD plays at the 5, Westbrook has a more open lane to drive. It does seem like he is playing better offensively in the last few games.

Defensively though, the opponent team would bring AD out of the paint. They would either shoot an outside jumper and let AD contest it so even if the shot misses, the rest of our players are too small or doesn't have the rebounding awareness to secure the defensive rebound, or they let other players penetrate to the paint as none of the other Lakers is capable defenders to stand in front of their players.

I still think Vogel is experimenting with different lineups over winning every game. With our current injury status, our best defensive lineup would probably be Bradley, Bazemore, LBJ, AD and Howard. Arguably, our best offensive lineup would probably be Monk, THT, LBJ, Anthony and AD. I don't think RW would be in any of the best offensive or defensive lineup and this is a major issue. We need to find a lineup that can maximise RW and RW needs to understand his role within that lineup.

We would probably win more games by playing less Westbrook or bringing him from the bench but until we mould Westbrook to fit into our death lineup, we aren't winning the championship. To do that, I am accepting more losses than wins in the first few months before I say this is never gonna work.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:52 am    Post subject:

Kblo247! wrote:

<snip>

Then you take away the blanket that was AD who contained every pick and roll, rotated to shooters, and got back to help defend the glass by making him the primary 5. So when you force switch him out as an offense the goal is left unmanned and you’re then asking AD to run back there and take care of that and fight a bunch of guys for boards. You need to start him at 4 and let him slide down to maximize what he does defensively over asking him to be the center full time


Thank you, this was a great read, really crystallizes a lot of what I've been seeing.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:43 am    Post subject:

he's started at the 4, and plays the 3 from time to time.. not worked.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject:

deal wrote:
AD isn’t a 5: he doesn’t want to be a 5 but let’s force it…


Most here wanted to during the offseason
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:25 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
deal wrote:
AD isn’t a 5: he doesn’t want to be a 5 but let’s force it…


Most here wanted to during the offseason

The senility is unbelievable sometimes
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:02 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
deal wrote:
AD isn’t a 5: he doesn’t want to be a 5 but let’s force it…


Most here wanted to during the offseason


I’ll admit I wanted it, this team is just garbage right now. The small ball lineup the lakers have just can’t offensively justify its defensive liability.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject:

Lakerz113 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
deal wrote:
AD isn’t a 5: he doesn’t want to be a 5 but let’s force it…


Most here wanted to during the offseason


I’ll admit I wanted it, this team is just garbage right now. The small ball lineup the lakers have just can’t offensively justify its defensive liability.



Do you think that might have anything to do with

Westbrook 6"4
Bradley 6"2
THT 6"4

?

or more with

LeBron 6"8
Davis 6"11

?
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governator
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:39 am    Post subject:

Do it like 2019, save ‘small’ ball AD for the 4th
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:10 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Do it like 2019, save ‘small’ ball AD for the 4th

It's a lot like with Pau. AD is like Pau on steriods IMO. He is not a guy you want to be your full time 5, but he can move to that spot and be deadly in the right moments in a game or playoff series.

We need to get a lot more role players that can defend by the trade deadline, if we want to win. All this AD at the 4 or 5 talk is irrelevant. Bron/Westbrook need to step up on D, which I think they will by playoffs. But the dudes around them, need to be defenders as well. And we simply don't have enough of them right now.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:39 pm    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
deal wrote:
AD isn’t a 5: he doesn’t want to be a 5 but let’s force it…


Most here wanted to during the offseason

The senility is unbelievable sometimes


More like maximize his time at the position he statistically dominated.
but I guess if DJ at center is your thing....
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