Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 8518 Location: Left coast
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:31 pm Post subject: Bad choice of centers is clear
I need to vent. People kept saying Javale was unplayable against Denver/in the playoffs, thus apparently he had no value to the team. 5 centers later, he remains the best of all of them.
Gasol
Drummond
Harrel
Jordan
Howard
Of those, Howard is still serviceable but he’s not a starter.
What were they thinking when they won a ring and jettisoned their energetic, rim running, inside scoring presence, offensive rebounding, shot blocking, defensively intimidating center? It’s stupidity like that that has allowed me to be numb to the losses for this highly overrated team.
Of course it’s on Pelinka, but I refuse to believe Lebron didn’t co-sign that. Javale isn’t afraid to be physical which makes him a better center than AD.
It was one of many foolish mgmt decisions
Last edited by lakersboy on Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
Gasol would have fit perfectly with the team due to his floor spacing, passing and IQ with a group of guys most effective when they're going to the basket. Too bad the coaching staff and the fanbase treated him like crap. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 8518 Location: Left coast
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:39 pm Post subject:
MJST wrote:
Gasol would have fit perfectly with the team due to his floor spacing, passing and IQ with a group of guys most effective when they're going to the basket. Too bad the coaching staff and the fanbase treated him like crap.
People said he fit perfectly with the team last year, but then he didn’t. If he had 8 or 10 points, people acted like that was something to celebrate because often he wasn’t doing that. His foot speed was far too slow last year, no mistake, and it would have only been worse this year.
Tonight against the Suns the Lakers got out scored 52-26 in the paint. Gasol wouldn’t have contributed to that, Howard didn’t, and AD wasn’t much help either.
Gasol would have fit perfectly with the team due to his floor spacing, passing and IQ with a group of guys most effective when they're going to the basket. Too bad the coaching staff and the fanbase treated him like crap.
People said he fit perfectly with the team last year, but then he didn’t. If he had 8 or 10 points, people acted like that was something to celebrate because often he wasn’t doing that. His foot speed was far too slow last year, no mistake, and it would have only been worse this year.
Tonight against the Suns the Lakers got out scored 52-26 in the paint. Gasol wouldn’t have contributed to that, Howard didn’t, and AD wasn’t much help either.
No, but he would open up the clogged lanes for lebron and Westbrook. DAJ is useless on both ends
Gasol would have fit perfectly with the team due to his floor spacing, passing and IQ with a group of guys most effective when they're going to the basket. Too bad the coaching staff and the fanbase treated him like crap.
People said he fit perfectly with the team last year, but then he didn’t.
Statistically we were a better team when he played. He fit in fine. People just ignored it whenever someone brought it up and overblew his 'weaknesses' and underrated his effectiveness. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 8518 Location: Left coast
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:05 pm Post subject:
MJST wrote:
lakersboy wrote:
MJST wrote:
Gasol would have fit perfectly with the team due to his floor spacing, passing and IQ with a group of guys most effective when they're going to the basket. Too bad the coaching staff and the fanbase treated him like crap.
People said he fit perfectly with the team last year, but then he didn’t.
Statistically we were a better team when he played. He fit in fine. People just ignored it whenever someone brought it up and overblew his 'weaknesses' and underrated his effectiveness.
Statistically, but it was ugly watching quick guards blow past him. It was ugly watching him get the ball near the rim and all he could muster was a 1 footed fall away shot that may or may not go in, since he never dunked anything.
Being better when he played vs when he didn’t, illustrated how bad of a fit Harrel was. Drummond tried to make up for what they lost but couldn’t.
Last year’s team was built because they were chasing stats and scoring averages. They completely ignored chemistry and we’re still paying for it.
Whether it is Gasol or not, we need a stretch big for spacing. I think the reason why Pelinka didn't get one is that he feels AD would play more minutes at the center if we need a stretch big. Nevertheless, I still think an additional stretch big would be useful for this team
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 8518 Location: Left coast
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:12 pm Post subject:
lakersfan8 wrote:
Whether it is Gasol or not, we need a stretch big for spacing. I think the reason why Pelinka didn't get one is that he feels AD would play more minutes at the center if we need a stretch big. Nevertheless, I still think an additional stretch big would be useful for this team
They were the best in the world when they didn’t have a stretch big, and it wasn’t close. They didn’t need a center shooting from outside at all. Now, they need offense, defense, a center who’s a threat to score, athleticism, shot blocking, etc. And that’s just at center. How did that go bad so quickly?
Whether it is Gasol or not, we need a stretch big for spacing. I think the reason why Pelinka didn't get one is that he feels AD would play more minutes at the center if we need a stretch big. Nevertheless, I still think an additional stretch big would be useful for this team
They were the best in the world when they didn’t have a stretch big, and it wasn’t close. They didn’t need a center shooting from outside at all. Now, they need offense, defense, a center who’s a threat to score, athleticism, shot blocking, etc. And that’s just at center. How did that go bad so quickly?
This is not the same 2020 team. What worked in 2020 isn’t necessarily going to work now.
2020 team had 2 floor spacers: Danny and KCP so they can afford to have a big living n the paint. This Lakers team now have a big 3 who do their damage inside the paint. With DJ that leaves only 1 player, Bazemore to spread the floor. Not a lot of spacing at all. _________________ Tacos
Gasol would have fit perfectly with the team due to his floor spacing, passing and IQ with a group of guys most effective when they're going to the basket. Too bad the coaching staff and the fanbase treated him like crap.
It seems that's how we make our moves is based on how our fanbase receives the player - the youth (DLO, Lonzo, etc), Danny Green, Javale, Gasol, etc..... if the fanbase says some thing negative about a player, then we get rid of them, despite how good they would be for us. Of course Lebron has say so as well. On the flip side, we base how well of a move it is, based on how well they are received by fans and Lebron. It's such a silly way to GM. Rob stays proving he has no idea what he is doing; like his bright idea to break up a championship team after their 1st championship, just for this year, try to make a team similar to the championship team, minus vital players. We had a chance to get Jerry West to mentor him, and Jeanie turned him down. It's hard being a supporter of the Lakers with this level of idiocy.
We have to consider trying AD at the 5. Westbrook gets more spacing and speed on O. Westbrook also gets better help on S/R defense.
I think AD would play full time 5 if that's what it takes. The way the roster is set up with so many guards, for 3 guard lineups, I am 100% sure we are going to end up playing AD at the 5 full time at some point. It's just a matter of time.
Vogel figured out one thing. Need to play Westbrook as the PG, and Rondo only when Westbrook sits. After the last game, he may have figured that AD at the 5 is what Westbrook needs. I like the ability to use AD at the 4 and 5. However it is evident that the team is struggling to get going on both ends with Westbrook. So to help this cause, we probably have to implement some changes. We saw some in the last game with Rondo/Westbrook lineups abandoned. Then in the 2nd half, saw AD at the 5 more. We may see this moving forward.
We all know we need we need a stretch 5 for spacing. That being said, they do not grow on trees and our ability to acquire a decent one was stymied because of the glutting of the roster in the RW acquisition. I actually think we are in better shape at the 5 this year than last year (not saying much). We are much improved defensively (although we are going to take a slight hit on the other side of the ball).
Truthfully, Howard is probably the better center to start if we want to go Big. He comes in too late in the game to truly make a difference. It's obvious AD and the Coaching staff has decided to play him at the 4 and not the 5 or else it would be so and he would start.
Ultimately we will need to hang our hats on the defensive side of the ball and AD as the starting 5 is the best option and Dwight is the second best.
Current best defensive starting lineup:
Westbrook + Bradley + Bazemore + LeBron + AD
Gives us more defensive coverage on the wings and at the Rim. Westbrook is the weak link here.
Second best defensive starting lineup:
Westbrook + Bazemore + LeBron + AD + Dwight
Gives us better defensive coverage mainly on the inside, whereas perimeter would lack, once again Westbrook is the weaker defender in this lineup.
There's been much speculation of Westbrook coming off the bench, and TBT, that may not be a bad idea!
Vogel has to figure this out and not wait 20 games to do it... It's not complicated but it requires confidence to make the decision. Winning championships is never about EGO'S, it's about Sacrifice!
Whether it is Gasol or not, we need a stretch big for spacing. I think the reason why Pelinka didn't get one is that he feels AD would play more minutes at the center if we need a stretch big. Nevertheless, I still think an additional stretch big would be useful for this team
They were the best in the world when they didn’t have a stretch big, and it wasn’t close. They didn’t need a center shooting from outside at all. Now, they need offense, defense, a center who’s a threat to score, athleticism, shot blocking, etc. And that’s just at center. How did that go bad so quickly?
This is not the same 2020 team. What worked in 2020 isn’t necessarily going to work now.
2020 team had 2 floor spacers: Danny and KCP so they can afford to have a big living n the paint. This Lakers team now have a big 3 who do their damage inside the paint. With DJ that leaves only 1 player, Bazemore to spread the floor. Not a lot of spacing at all.
Exactly, stop using the comparison of the 2020 team. The whole team construction is different.
We all know we need we need a stretch 5 for spacing. That being said, they do not grow on trees and our ability to acquire a decent one was stymied because of the glutting of the roster in the RW acquisition. I actually think we are in better shape at the 5 this year than last year (not saying much). We are much improved defensively (although we are going to take a slight hit on the other side of the ball).
Our centers is not the reason why our defense breaks down. It is our guards who allow penetration too easily. However, at least with a stretch 5, our offense would be much better.
Sure we couldn't sign a defensive stretch 5 with our cap space but I would rather have a stretch 5 center who can't defend than have DJ. It is funny that Warriors have a bunch of shooters on the team yet they still sign Bjelica to space the floor while we did the complete opposite even though we do not have an elite shooter on our starting lineup
We have to consider trying AD at the 5. Westbrook gets more spacing and speed on O. Westbrook also gets better help on S/R defense.
I think AD would play full time 5 if that's what it takes. The way the roster is set up with so many guards, for 3 guard lineups, I am 100% sure we are going to end up playing AD at the 5 full time at some point. It's just a matter of time.
Vogel figured out one thing. Need to play Westbrook as the PG, and Rondo only when Westbrook sits. After the last game, he may have figured that AD at the 5 is what Westbrook needs. I like the ability to use AD at the 4 and 5. However it is evident that the team is struggling to get going on both ends with Westbrook. So to help this cause, we probably have to implement some changes. We saw some in the last game with Rondo/Westbrook lineups abandoned. Then in the 2nd half, saw AD at the 5 more. We may see this moving forward.
To me, the lineups of the 19-20 championship team need to be abandoned. That team won a title with one of the worst offenses I’ve seen from a championship team and pretty much didn’t play McGee at all it’s entire post season run. The similarity is outside of playing Dwight against Jokic - AD was at the 5.
This current iteration to me has to come to three realizations.
1) Two big lineups compromise our defense as opposing teams are packing the paint on offense and pulling bigs out on the perimeter. AD should start and close the game at the 5.
2) Our spacing will not improve by adding shooters until shooters make the defense pay. To me that’s what Austin Reeves & Bazemore have bought into. Rather than forcing the integration of Russ, we should be focused more on having shooters who can hit shots. Only until we hit our shots consistently will defenses even honor them and this will take several games to get teams to adjust.
3) Nunn should start. Have Lebron be the defacto PG in Hal court offense with Russ pushing in transition. Have Nunn guard 1’s. Russ should play the 2 and have either Bazemore or Ariza at the three 3. Nunn has to guard the point of attack in starting and closing lineups as he’s our best on ball defender. _________________ Author of James Harden and the Strip Club
"The key to good decision making is not knowledge. It is understanding. We are swimming in the former. We are desperately lacking in the latter." - Malcom Gladwell
Feelings about the Center's we've been playing these last years:
McGee: decent for RS but bad for Playoffs
Howard: has a niche role but still feels he can do more on offense... if we had a shooting team instead of a driving team.
Morris: when we were not using AD as C when going small, he did a decent job vs small teams.
AD: a beast in playoffs, when he could be used, but he doesn't show on RS (which gave McGee more value)
Gasol: left after feeling mistreated by the AD2 signing, best true C stats
Drummond: horrible, he seems to know when he is going to fail a layup so he can catch his own rebound, hence the stat padding
Harrell: no chemistry with our guys last year, a small center that wasn't properly used and had no synergy with Schroeder
Jordan: meh, hope he shows more than what he has so far.
Melo: filling the Morris role so far, will see if it works
Feelings about the Center's we've been playing these last years:
McGee: decent for RS but bad for Playoffs
Howard: has a niche role but still feels he can do more on offense... if we had a shooting team instead of a driving team.
Morris: when we were not using AD as C when going small, he did a decent job vs small teams.
AD: a beast in playoffs, when he could be used, but he doesn't show on RS (which gave McGee more value)
Gasol: left after feeling mistreated by the AD2 signing, best true C stats
Drummond: horrible, he seems to know when he is going to fail a layup so he can catch his own rebound, hence the stat padding
Harrell: no chemistry with our guys last year, a small center that wasn't properly used and had no synergy with Schroeder
Jordan: meh, hope he shows more than what he has so far.
Melo: filling the Morris role so far, will see if it works
Gasol left because he was done. He couldn't defend my grandmother off a pick n roll if his life depended on it. Teams had a clear path to the rim ala Matador.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35853 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:58 am Post subject:
Isn’t it ironic how JaVale McGee, a perennial punchline, ended up being a better center than HoFers Dwight Howard and Marc Gasol (albeit not in their primes obviously), All-Stars Andre Drummond and DeAndre Jordan, and Sixth Man of the Year Montrezl Harrell? Almost like there’s some sort of adage to be had here. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
DJ looked very active tonight. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
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