Alec Baldwin accidentally kills film crew member with prop gun (UPDATE 4/20/23: Charges dropped)
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:42 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
I honestly cannot figure out why Baldwin and the crew were that stupid. I'm sure Baldwin has had a long list of action movies and prop masters or armorers have probably given him informal Gun Safety 101 more than a few times. Whether you're on a set or in real-life, the sequence is simple. With a single action revolver, before you hand it over:

1. Open the loading gate and show it to the person you are about to hand the weapon.. The loading gate is where you load the weapon. When open there should be no round in that chamber.

2. Pull back the hammer in the first safety position; that's the first click you'll hear. This allows the cylinder to rotate. Now rotate the cylinder so that the person you are handing the weapon to can see that every chamber is empty. Cycle through twice for good measure, not every cylinder carries six chambers.

3. Ask if they'd like to see you rotate the cylinder again.

4. Draw back the hammer completely and while your thumb is still on the hammer, pull the trigger but release the hammer slowly back to the non-firing position. This isn't just for safety, this is to protect your firing pin.


I'm not being preachy, it's just that if there's someone out there reading this, please do this whenever a friend presents a single-action revolver to you. If he or she doesn't do this, do this yourself. You may save a life.


This was a production company that not only ignored safety protocols, they out right flouted them in so many ways. I hope that each and every decision maker on that set is found liable, at least in some meaningful civil fashion, if not criminal.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:43 am    Post subject:

And yes Omar, I'm sure they had dummy rounds. For the life of me, these needn't look like a real bullet other then the blunt nose and coloration. The casing/cartridge can be anodized lime green so that anyone looking at it will immediately know it's fake.

Last edited by angrypuppy on Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:11 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:45 am    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
Remember in Tropic Thunder when Tom Cruise starts talking about the G5 jet they will be able to buy with the insurance money? Does this film get a huge insurance payout after this incident?


They better hope they have great insurance, because they are going to have a serious lawsuit on their hands and they are going to need it to pay out damages.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:13 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
I honestly cannot figure out why Baldwin and the crew were that stupid. I'm sure Baldwin has had a long list of action movies and prop masters or armorers have probably given him informal Gun Safety 101 more than a few times. Whether you're on a set or in real-life, the sequence is simple. With a single action revolver, before you hand it over:

1. Open the loading gate and show it to the person you are about to hand the weapon.. The loading gate is where you load the weapon. When open there should be no round in that chamber.

2. Pull back the hammer in the first safety position; that's the first click you'll hear. This allows the cylinder to rotate. Now rotate the cylinder so that the person you are handing the weapon to can see that every chamber is empty. Cycle through twice for good measure, not every cylinder carries six chambers. Make sure the muzzle is pointed downward and not in harm's way.

3. Ask if they'd like to see you rotate the cylinder again.

4. Draw back the hammer completely and while your thumb is still on the hammer, pull the trigger but release the hammer slowly back to the non-firing position. This isn't just for safety, this is to protect your firing pin.


I'm not being preachy, it's just that if there's someone out there reading this, please do this whenever a friend presents a single-action revolver to you. If he or she doesn't do this, do this yourself. You may save a life.


You're not being preachy. That's a part of gun ownership 101 as you say. I don't know, maybe I'm just cautious by nature but when I'm around firearms, I'm am completely keyed in on the weapon/weapons. I guess it's just the idea that moving one's finger a fraction of an inch has the capacity to kill someone.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:33 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
Remember in Tropic Thunder when Tom Cruise starts talking about the G5 jet they will be able to buy with the insurance money? Does this film get a huge insurance payout after this incident?


They better hope they have great insurance, because they are going to have a serious lawsuit on their hands and they are going to need it to pay out damages.


If I was only on set I would sue their ass for making me watch someone get shot (and later die) in front of me.. that's Trauma.. unnecessary .. horrific

Was the trigger was pulled when it didn't even need to be? - a bit sus if yes.. unless "Cold Gun" means it doesn't even have blanks or anything in it...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:02 pm    Post subject:

Latest info: Washington Post: Search warrant from ‘Rust’ set details fatal shooting and crew member walkout over production ‘disagreements’

Quote:
The detective spoke after the Thursday incident with Souza, who said work started late that day because they hired another camera crew to step in for those who had walked out. They were only working with one camera, according to Souza, so the day also progressed at a slower pace than usual. He stood beside Hutchins that afternoon to view the camera angle for a scene set inside a church building at Bonanza Creek Ranch.

Souza recalled Baldwin sitting on a pew while rehearsing the scene, which required the actor to cross draw his character’s weapon and point it toward the camera. The director remembered someone saying “cold gun” before Baldwin was handed the firearm, a term used to confirm that the weapon did not contain any live rounds. (That person is identified as assistant director Dave Halls elsewhere in the affidavit.)

Baldwin was practicing that move when Souza heard what he described as “a whip and then loud pop.” He said Hutchins held her abdomen before stumbling backward. She was then helped to the floor. Souza saw blood on Hutchins and noticed he was bleeding from the shoulder.

In a separate interview with the detective, Reid Russell, a camera operator who stood near Souza and Hutchins that day, said he remembered the cinematographer saying she couldn’t feel her legs.

Both Souza and Russell told the detective everyone on set seemed to be getting along that day. Russell noted that Baldwin had been “very careful” while handling firearms on set, mentioning another scene in which the actor made sure to stay away from a child while discharging a weapon.

The interviews explain why Baldwin had been pointing the prop gun in Souza and Hutchins’s direction, but not why they were injured and killed, respectively, after it was discharged.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject:

Seems the assistant director had an incident on another shoot where a gun discharged accidentally, and that unknown members (plural) of the crew were apparently shooting target practice with the gun during breaks from filming. That all seems fine.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:19 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
Remember in Tropic Thunder when Tom Cruise starts talking about the G5 jet they will be able to buy with the insurance money? Does this film get a huge insurance payout after this incident?


They better hope they have great insurance, because they are going to have a serious lawsuit on their hands and they are going to need it to pay out damages.


Baldwin is a producer, so is he civilly liable? Or is he not “really” a producer and just given that title as an additional incentive?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:23 pm    Post subject:

This is one of those stories that I think everyone needs to wait until all of the facts are out and investigated before offering judgment. I have seen so many articles about negative histories in regards to people behind the scenes, and I think that is a little unfair to them until it is determined they were at fault to some degree. It could have a negative impact on peoples careers that may have no fault in this incident.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:27 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
This is one of those stories that I think everyone needs to wait until all of the facts are out and investigated before offering judgment. I have seen so many articles about negative histories in regards to people behind the scenes, and I think that is a little unfair to them until it is determined they were at fault to some degree. It could have a negative impact on peoples careers that may have no fault in this incident.


The facts are already out and everyone involved has confirmed them. You should get caught up, read the whole thread and read the news before you offer your "wisdom" regarding how others should discuss this.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:38 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
adkindo wrote:
This is one of those stories that I think everyone needs to wait until all of the facts are out and investigated before offering judgment. I have seen so many articles about negative histories in regards to people behind the scenes, and I think that is a little unfair to them until it is determined they were at fault to some degree. It could have a negative impact on peoples careers that may have no fault in this incident.


The facts are already out and everyone involved has confirmed them. You should get caught up, read the whole thread and read the news before you offer your "wisdom" regarding how others should discuss this.


Guy, I have moderately kept up with it.....but the results of the investigation have not been released to the public...right? I have read articles digging into a statement that the Armorer made a couple years ago.....mistake in the past by the Asst. Armorer....the guy that handed him the gun got fired for a mistake, etc. etc. Heck, I am no fan of Baldwin, but I have seen articles taking cheap shots at him based on some unrelated tweet he sent a couple years ago. It just comes off to me as tearing down a lot of people without knowing exactly where the fault lies in this incident.

Btw, maybe it read as I was indicating how people on this board should discuss the issue, but that was not intended. My intention was directed towards how it is being covered in the media.....which I find a little reckless.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:43 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
Remember in Tropic Thunder when Tom Cruise starts talking about the G5 jet they will be able to buy with the insurance money? Does this film get a huge insurance payout after this incident?


They better hope they have great insurance, because they are going to have a serious lawsuit on their hands and they are going to need it to pay out damages.


Baldwin is a producer, so is he civilly liable? Or is he not “really” a producer and just given that title as an additional incentive?


That's a smart question. Yes, some actors are given a producer credit on low budget projects so they can get paid scale as an actor and get an additional paycheck as a "producer", but not are actually making the calls on set. But indications are that Baldwin is also an executive of the production company in charge itself.

Additionally, he has been a member of SAG who has gone on record as being supportive of the potential IATSE strike, which is based largely on the effort to eliminate dangerous working conditions on set. So he has been advocating for safer conditions while being part of a production company that is actively defying them.

Short answer? Baldwin is on the hot seat for sure.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:53 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
adkindo wrote:
This is one of those stories that I think everyone needs to wait until all of the facts are out and investigated before offering judgment. I have seen so many articles about negative histories in regards to people behind the scenes, and I think that is a little unfair to them until it is determined they were at fault to some degree. It could have a negative impact on peoples careers that may have no fault in this incident.


The facts are already out and everyone involved has confirmed them. You should get caught up, read the whole thread and read the news before you offer your "wisdom" regarding how others should discuss this.


Guy, I have moderately kept up with it.....but the results of the investigation have not been released to the public...right? I have read articles digging into a statement that the Armorer made a couple years ago.....mistake in the past by the Asst. Armorer....the guy that handed him the gun got fired for a mistake, etc. etc. Heck, I am no fan of Baldwin, but I have seen articles taking cheap shots at him based on some unrelated tweet he sent a couple years ago. It just comes off to me as tearing down a lot of people without knowing exactly where the fault lies in this incident.

Btw, maybe it read as I was indicating how people on this board should discuss the issue, but that was not intended. My intention was directed towards how it is being covered in the media.....which I find a little reckless.


Fair enough. But everything the media has said is corroborated by what is being stated behind the scenes in industry groups by those who were there and are familiar with the people involved. I say this as someone who has been following the information as it unfolded form those familiar well before the media was reporting the information. Even the people involved have now confirmed the events.

There are no "wait and sees" argument involved with this tragedy at this point.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:30 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
I think that is a little unfair to them until it is determined they were at fault to some degree.


Yeah, an innocent cinematographer was shot dead on a movie set. That doesn’t happen without “fault”.

So, there’s no need to wait to see if someone was at fault. Fault has already been determined.

The only question now is, how many are at fault, who are they, and to what degree is the fault?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:41 am    Post subject:

Simple deductive question - guessing I know the answer

In the chain of handling for firearms
(that are never supposed to be live ever)
is it EVER the Actors responsibility to check a prop gun
and make sure all those people above them in command of the gun did their job?

I cannot imagine an Actor or Actress has the responsibility to physically load the prop gun with blanks or make sure there are blanks in it.. What kind of special (bleep) puts live bullets in a gun to be used as a prop?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:23 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Simple deductive question - guessing I know the answer

In the chain of handling for firearms
(that are never supposed to be live ever)
is it EVER the Actors responsibility to check a prop gun
and make sure all those people above them in command of the gun did their job?

I cannot imagine an Actor or Actress has the responsibility to physically load the prop gun with blanks or make sure there are blanks in it.. What kind of special (bleep) puts live bullets in a gun to be used as a prop?


Good question. I wonder what criminal exposure Baldwin may have to contend with:

1) Is he responsible to be the last one to verify the gun is cold?
2) Is he responsible for pointing the gun towards people?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:33 pm    Post subject:

JerryWest_44 wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Simple deductive question - guessing I know the answer

In the chain of handling for firearms
(that are never supposed to be live ever)
is it EVER the Actors responsibility to check a prop gun
and make sure all those people above them in command of the gun did their job?

I cannot imagine an Actor or Actress has the responsibility to physically load the prop gun with blanks or make sure there are blanks in it.. What kind of special (bleep) puts live bullets in a gun to be used as a prop?


Good question. I wonder what criminal exposure Baldwin may have to contend with:

1) Is he responsible to be the last one to verify the gun is cold?
2) Is he responsible for pointing the gun towards people?


I think any criminal exposure will fall on the armorer and AD. However, Baldwin is almost certainly facing serious civil liabilities as an executive producer which might extend to criminal culpability in regards to negligence.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:46 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
JerryWest_44 wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Simple deductive question - guessing I know the answer

In the chain of handling for firearms
(that are never supposed to be live ever)
is it EVER the Actors responsibility to check a prop gun
and make sure all those people above them in command of the gun did their job?

I cannot imagine an Actor or Actress has the responsibility to physically load the prop gun with blanks or make sure there are blanks in it.. What kind of special (bleep) puts live bullets in a gun to be used as a prop?


Good question. I wonder what criminal exposure Baldwin may have to contend with:

1) Is he responsible to be the last one to verify the gun is cold?
2) Is he responsible for pointing the gun towards people?


I think any criminal exposure will fall on the armorer and AD. However, Baldwin is almost certainly facing serious civil liabilities as an executive producer which might extend to criminal culpability in regards to negligence.


The director as well since there were reports that the crew complained to the director that production was unsafe.

Here are some pertinent questions:

1) Did or should Baldwin have known that the guns were being used for offset target practice?

2) There were rumors of previous accidental discharges. What type were they? Did those discharges involve live rounds as well?

I think the cinematographer's estate can make a case that Baldwin should have been double checking the guns if he was aware of (1) and/or (2)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:53 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
JerryWest_44 wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Simple deductive question - guessing I know the answer

In the chain of handling for firearms
(that are never supposed to be live ever)
is it EVER the Actors responsibility to check a prop gun
and make sure all those people above them in command of the gun did their job?

I cannot imagine an Actor or Actress has the responsibility to physically load the prop gun with blanks or make sure there are blanks in it.. What kind of special (bleep) puts live bullets in a gun to be used as a prop?


Good question. I wonder what criminal exposure Baldwin may have to contend with:

1) Is he responsible to be the last one to verify the gun is cold?
2) Is he responsible for pointing the gun towards people?


I think any criminal exposure will fall on the armorer and AD. However, Baldwin is almost certainly facing serious civil liabilities as an executive producer which might extend to criminal culpability in regards to negligence.


The director as well since there were reports that the crew complained to the director that production was unsafe.


If he is also listed as a producer, for sure. Otherwise, he may be able to claim that he tried to make changes, but was prevented from doing so by the production company.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:10 pm    Post subject:

At the very least the armorer should not have allowed prop guns to be used for plinking (using cans for target practice). My guess is that she allowed it as she was attempting to ingratiate herself with others in order to further her own business interests. Perhaps some crew members didn't empty that particular gun, set it down where it was later picked up by the AD, who in turn assumed that it wasn't loaded.

The armorer never maintained custody, the AD contributed by picking it up and breaking the rule that the armorer or prop master is the one who gives an actor a prop weapon.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:36 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
If he is also listed as a producer, for sure. Otherwise, he may be able to claim that he tried to make changes, but was prevented from doing so by the production company.


Yeah, his best defense is just ignorance of anything unsafe that was going on.

If he actually knew and was aware, I think it'd be hard for him to get off. I think the director has enough authority to make some changes. At least the crew thought so since they claimed they came to him to complain.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:46 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
The production of “Rust” has been beset by disputes from the start in early October and included seven crew members walking off the set just hours before the shooting.

The Los Angeles Times, citing two crew members it did not name, reported that five days before the shooting, Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two live rounds after being told the gun didn’t have any ammunition.

Alarmed by the misfires, a crew member told a unit production manager in a text message, “We’ve now had 3 accidental discharges. This is super unsafe,” according to a copy of the message reviewed by the newspaper.

Winkler called the previous misfires — and an apparent lack of any action taken after them — "a recipe for a very significant liability in damages.”

“You can’t have a dangerous situation, know about it and then do nothing,” he said.


5 days before the shooting, 2 live rounds were accidentally discharged by Baldwin's stunt double.

How does anyone escape liability?

Quote:
Although New Mexico law defines involuntary manslaughter in part as a lawful act that resulted in death from “an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection,” defense attorney Nina Marino said she doubts any criminal case would be filed.

“If a local agency in New Mexico was going to go forward with criminal charges, that would have a real chilling effect on further filming taking place in New Mexico, and I think New Mexico appreciates the business,” said Marino, who specializes in white collar cases as a co-founder of the Kaplan Marino law firm.


Damn, so the DA has to protect the film industry in New Mexico?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:07 pm    Post subject:

They do need to stop using accidental discharge and misfire interchangeably. A misfire is when a gun fails to properly fire (either doesn’t fire at all—usually due to a primer failure—or fails to produce enough explosion from the powder charge to adequately expel the projectile). What the article above is actually describing is an accidental discharge of a live round, not a misfire.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:19 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Quote:
The production of “Rust” has been beset by disputes from the start in early October and included seven crew members walking off the set just hours before the shooting.

The Los Angeles Times, citing two crew members it did not name, reported that five days before the shooting, Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two live rounds after being told the gun didn’t have any ammunition.

Alarmed by the misfires, a crew member told a unit production manager in a text message, “We’ve now had 3 accidental discharges. This is super unsafe,” according to a copy of the message reviewed by the newspaper.

Winkler called the previous misfires — and an apparent lack of any action taken after them — "a recipe for a very significant liability in damages.”

“You can’t have a dangerous situation, know about it and then do nothing,” he said.


5 days before the shooting, 2 live rounds were accidentally discharged by Baldwin's stunt double.

How does anyone escape liability?

Quote:
Although New Mexico law defines involuntary manslaughter in part as a lawful act that resulted in death from “an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection,” defense attorney Nina Marino said she doubts any criminal case would be filed.

“If a local agency in New Mexico was going to go forward with criminal charges, that would have a real chilling effect on further filming taking place in New Mexico, and I think New Mexico appreciates the business,” said Marino, who specializes in white collar cases as a co-founder of the Kaplan Marino law firm.


Damn, so the DA has to protect the film industry in New Mexico?



Of course, the film industry creates in-state revenue and political donations. In the words of the late Jesse Unruh, former Treasurer of California: "Money is the mother's milk of politics."
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:20 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
They do need to stop using accidental discharge and misfire interchangeably. A misfire is when a gun fails to properly fire (either doesn’t fire at all—usually due to a primer failure—or fails to produce enough explosion from the powder charge to adequately expel the projectile). What the article above is actually describing is an accidental discharge of a live round, not a misfire.



The misuse of the word misfire is creating a haze around what actually transpired on that set. I'm still trying to get my arms around the three "misfires" that preceded the accident.
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