From my PoV, the list lacks a bit of criteria consistency. And a ton of projection bias for players still in the league. I don't feel they are voting on their career until now for the active players, but from now on.
One of the reasons I think the original 50 made the list is that they made the 88 voters fill 75 names. Some of the voters may have revisited the original 50 list hehehe
4. I am not sure if Klay has better credentials than AD. Klay is soon to turn 32, and he is three years older than AD. He's played 8 years, made 5 all-star teams, and 2 all-NBA teams. It's anyone's guess when he will return from his injury and how he will be when he returns.
I’m surprised that there has been a fuss about Klay. He’s had a good career, but I wouldn’t have thought of him as an obvious top 75 player.
There is a little bit of hub-bub about it today. For me I wouldn't say necessarily AD versus Klay but I definitely could see Dame versus Klay or a Carmelo vs Klay Because Dame and Carmelo have not won anything.
I think my issue with a lot of the modern day selections is OK – after you list the obvious guys who changed the trajectory of the sport in their given eras, record holders, etc then you're just looking at picking out amazing players in a league of amazing players. So for me it becomes about winning and championship pedigree. A lot of these folks have done nice things on paper and then didn't actually win anything so you know it's challenging.
If Klay then Kyrie too
Yep. I thought about Kyrie too ahead of Melo and Dame.
I'll grant Kyrie the ring while riding shotgun to Lebron but for the rest of his career, as a top dog, he's been the conductor of some of the worse teams in the league. His four years in Cleveland prior to Lebron held the worse record in the league over that span. Boston went to the ECF after he was injured. Prior to KD arriving, the Nets had a better record without him than with him.
He's a supremely gifted scorer and one of the few you can give the ball and get you a clutch bucket. Handles are off the charts. Beyond that, he's pretty useless . Not a floor raiser to his teammates, below average defense, zero leadership skills to speak of. The icing on the cake? You don't even know when this guy will show up.
I understand why they went with the original 50 and adding on 25 but for me, I'd remove half the old school Celtics and Knicks and make some room. Dwight gets shat on but his body of work is unassailable imo.
They didn't go with the original 50 and add 25.
They had 88 new voters who each filled out a ballot with their 75 choices.
They were under no obligation to vote for any of the original 50.
The original 50 just happened to make the team. But there was no plan to make it that way. I was a little surprised myself I thought a couple of them would get booted off
Actually, if you listen to Wilbon's take on the 75 list on PTI (he was one of the voters) he basically confirmed that most of the voters conferred with each other and came to an unofficial agreement to explicitly NOT vote out any of the players that made the OG 50 list because that would be disrespectful to the history of the game.
4. I am not sure if Klay has better credentials than AD. Klay is soon to turn 32, and he is three years older than AD. He's played 8 years, made 5 all-star teams, and 2 all-NBA teams. It's anyone's guess when he will return from his injury and how he will be when he returns.
I’m surprised that there has been a fuss about Klay. He’s had a good career, but I wouldn’t have thought of him as an obvious top 75 player.
There is a little bit of hub-bub about it today. For me I wouldn't say necessarily AD versus Klay but I definitely could see Dame versus Klay or a Carmelo vs Klay Because Dame and Carmelo have not won anything.
I think my issue with a lot of the modern day selections is OK – after you list the obvious guys who changed the trajectory of the sport in their given eras, record holders, etc then you're just looking at picking out amazing players in a league of amazing players. So for me it becomes about winning and championship pedigree. A lot of these folks have done nice things on paper and then didn't actually win anything so you know it's challenging.
If Klay then Kyrie too
Yep. I thought about Kyrie too ahead of Melo and Dame.
I'll grant Kyrie the ring while riding shotgun to Lebron but for the rest of his career, as a top dog, he's been the conductor of some of the worse teams in the league. His four years in Cleveland prior to Lebron held the worse record in the league over that span. Boston went to the ECF after he was injured. Prior to KD arriving, the Nets had a better record without him than with him.
He's a supremely gifted scorer and one of the few you can give the ball and get you a clutch bucket. Handles are off the charts. Beyond that, he's pretty useless . Not a floor raiser to his teammates, below average defense, zero leadership skills to speak of. The icing on the cake? You don't even know when this guy will show up.
I understand why they went with the original 50 and adding on 25 but for me, I'd remove half the old school Celtics and Knicks and make some room. Dwight gets shat on but his body of work is unassailable imo.
They didn't go with the original 50 and add 25.
They had 88 new voters who each filled out a ballot with their 75 choices.
They were under no obligation to vote for any of the original 50.
The original 50 just happened to make the team. But there was no plan to make it that way. I was a little surprised myself I thought a couple of them would get booted off
Actually, if you listen to Wilbon's take on the 75 list on PTI (he was one of the voters) he basically confirmed that most of the voters conferred with each other and came to an unofficial agreement to explicitly NOT vote out any of the players that made the OG 50 list because that would be disrespectful to the history of the game.
Also I read that a majority of the original top 50 were among the voters for the 75 so it was pretty unlikely that they would vote themselves out. Personally I would've replaced quite a few of those guys. It's no more disrespectful to remove them than it is to omit more recent players who are more deserving.
Actually, if you listen to Wilbon's take on the 75 list on PTI (he was one of the voters) he basically confirmed that most of the voters conferred with each other and came to an unofficial agreement to explicitly NOT vote out any of the players that made the OG 50 list because that would be disrespectful to the history of the game.
Are you referring to this at 11:38:
In this segment, Wilbon said something like: "There were guys on this panel that told me it would be respectful to take any of the original 50 off the list.... Their arguments persuaded me."
But he didn't say how many of the voters told him that, and he didn't suggest that most of the voters conferred with each other and came to any kind of unofficial agreement of the kind you mention.
Last edited by activeverb on Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Why is Melo and Westbrick on the list? If so, the Lakers would have 4 players on the list yet they play like a lottery team. _________________ LeGoat! LeMazing! LeGend!
His credentials are as good as a lot of guys on the list -- 9 years into his career, he is a 5 time all-star with 5 all-NBA nods, and the 15th best scoring average in NBA history. He's not a gimme for the list, but he's not unreasonable imho.
Kobetan wrote:
And AD, if he didn't win the chip, would he be on the list?
Is that even relevant? The fact is he did win a ring. It's a little like saying, "If you take away a key achievement that a player actually achieved, would he still be on the list?"
Why is Melo and Westbrick on the list? If so, the Lakers would have 4 players on the list yet they play like a lottery team.
Melo and Westbrook are no-brainers. That said, they are on the list based on their past achievements, not their current play.
If you consider ball-hogging an achievement, then Melo and Westbrick would be at the top of the list because that's how they've got their stats. What has Melo and Westbrick ever won or accomplished in the NBA? Melo has always been known as a terrible defender so every point he scored he gave up right away so he's probably a net negative in his career.
I think the minimum requirement to be on the list is championship title so Harden and CP3 should be excluded as well. _________________ LeGoat! LeMazing! LeGend!
Why is Melo and Westbrick on the list? If so, the Lakers would have 4 players on the list yet they play like a lottery team.
Melo and Westbrook are no-brainers. That said, they are on the list based on their past achievements, not their current play.
If you consider ball-hogging an achievement, then Melo and Westbrick would be at the top of the list because that's how they've got their stats. What has Melo and Westbrick ever won or accomplished in the NBA? Melo has always been known as a terrible defender so every point he scored he gave up right away so he's probably a net negative in his career.
I think the minimum requirement to be on the list is championship title so Harden and CP3 should be excluded as well.
Based on your standard, I am not sure you could put together a list of 75 players.
In fact, I challenge you to out together a list of 75 players based on your standards and see if you are satisfied with the list.
You would have to knock off 20 guys from the current list, and the people you'd replace them with would be far inferior players.
You'd be adding Kyrie Irving, Chris Bosh, Manu Ginobili, Dwight, Draymond Green, Klay Thompson, Pau Gasol, Vern Mikkelsen, Slater Martin, Shawn Marion, Chet Walker, Jack Sikma, Jojo White, Kyle Lowry, Chauncy Billups, Gail Goodrich, Kevin Love, Mitch Richmond, Rondo, and Maurice Cheeks.
Guys you'd be losing include: Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Carmelo Anthony, Elgin Baylor, Steve Nash, Rick Barry, George Gervin, Allen Iverson, Pete Maravich
Last edited by activeverb on Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:19 am; edited 2 times in total
And AD, if he didn't win the chip, would he be on the list?
Is that even relevant? The fact is he did win a ring. It's a little like saying, "If you take away a key achievement that a player actually achieved, would he still be on the list?"
I didn't put it clearly, but my point was actually if there are other more deserving people. Like Dwight, who won the same chip as AD but obviously with a much lesser role. Since he didn't win a chip as the man, does AD's ring put him above Dwight? Dwight brought his Orlando team to the finals as the man, compared to AD's 2nd round exit with the Pelicans.
Anyway lists like these are so subjective, but thought I would make my point clearer
And AD, if he didn't win the chip, would he be on the list?
Is that even relevant? The fact is he did win a ring. It's a little like saying, "If you take away a key achievement that a player actually achieved, would he still be on the list?"
I didn't put it clearly, but my point was actually if there are other more deserving people. Like Dwight, who won the same chip as AD but obviously with a much lesser role. Since he didn't win a chip as the man, does AD's ring put him above Dwight? Dwight brought his Orlando team to the finals as the man, compared to AD's 2nd round exit with the Pelicans.
Anyway lists like these are so subjective, but thought I would make my point clearer
I get you.
On lists like this, probably 60 of the 75 are guys everyone would agree with it.
The last 15 guys could probably come from a pool of 30-40 players who are equally deserving.
And AD, if he didn't win the chip, would he be on the list?
Is that even relevant? The fact is he did win a ring. It's a little like saying, "If you take away a key achievement that a player actually achieved, would he still be on the list?"
I didn't put it clearly, but my point was actually if there are other more deserving people. Like Dwight, who won the same chip as AD but obviously with a much lesser role. Since he didn't win a chip as the man, does AD's ring put him above Dwight? Dwight brought his Orlando team to the finals as the man, compared to AD's 2nd round exit with the Pelicans.
Anyway lists like these are so subjective, but thought I would make my point clearer
I get you.
On lists like this, probably 60 of the 75 are guys everyone would agree with it.
The last 15 guys could probably come from a pool of 30-40 players who are equally deserving.
Actually, if you listen to Wilbon's take on the 75 list on PTI (he was one of the voters) he basically confirmed that most of the voters conferred with each other and came to an unofficial agreement to explicitly NOT vote out any of the players that made the OG 50 list because that would be disrespectful to the history of the game.
Are you referring to this at 11:38:
In this segment, Wilbon said something like: "There were guys on this panel that told me it would be respectful to take any of the original 50 off the list.... Their arguments persuaded me."
But he didn't say how many of the voters told him that, and he didn't suggest that most of the voters conferred with each other and came to any kind of unofficial agreement of the kind you mention.
Actually, if you listen to Wilbon's take on the 75 list on PTI (he was one of the voters) he basically confirmed that most of the voters conferred with each other and came to an unofficial agreement to explicitly NOT vote out any of the players that made the OG 50 list because that would be disrespectful to the history of the game.
Are you referring to this at 11:38:
In this segment, Wilbon said something like: "There were guys on this panel that told me it would be respectful to take any of the original 50 off the list.... Their arguments persuaded me."
But he didn't say how many of the voters told him that, and he didn't suggest that most of the voters conferred with each other and came to any kind of unofficial agreement of the kind you mention.
Well, the results suggest otherwise.
If that's what you think happened, cool. But Wilbon himself never said that happened.
Harden's going to get better as the season goes on and he adjusts, but the slander so many idiots put on Kobe's name in favor of a bearded fat man who has more career made free throws than made field goals was always ridiculous and pathetic. Now maybe they can see it. _________________ Under New Management
Harden's going to get better as the season goes on and he adjusts, but the slander so many idiots put on Kobe's name in favor of a bearded fat man who has more career made free throws than made field goals was always ridiculous and pathetic. Now maybe they can see it.
Yeah, I feel you. And it pisses me off when people compare Booker to Kobe.
Harden's going to get better as the season goes on and he adjusts, but the slander so many idiots put on Kobe's name in favor of a bearded fat man who has more career made free throws than made field goals was always ridiculous and pathetic. Now maybe they can see it.
Peak Harden was at an offensive level that rivaled Jordan/Shaq/Lebron/Curry. Hate on his game all you want but he got snubbed out of an MVP (lol Westbrook) and was the greatest scorer of the 3-point-revolution era. It’s not an insult to have him and Kobe compared.
The real travesty here is that Dame got in over Dwight. That makes zero sense objectively. _________________ If Brandon Knight were to come out, I would take him number 1 in the draft. - Magic Johnson Mar 27, 2011
For all of you out there questioning Jimmer Fredette of BYU, he is the real deal. - Magic Johnson Mar 20, 2011
Harden's going to get better as the season goes on and he adjusts, but the slander so many idiots put on Kobe's name in favor of a bearded fat man who has more career made free throws than made field goals was always ridiculous and pathetic. Now maybe they can see it.
Peak Harden was at an offensive level that rivaled Jordan/Shaq/Lebron/Curry. Hate on his game all you want but he got snubbed out of an MVP (lol Westbrook) and was the greatest scorer of the 3-point-revolution era. It’s not an insult to have him and Kobe compared.
The real travesty here is that Dame got in over Dwight. That makes zero sense objectively.
It kinda is, actually. He needs to pass Jerry West and Wade before you can even start to entertain the Kobe comparisons. The only thing that Harden has over Kobe is playmaking, and even that is debatable since we only got a small glimpse of what Kobe could've done in a juiced up D'Antoni offense.
Kobe is a superior defender, and it's not even close. Harden has somewhat improved in that area, but he was so bad on the defensive end at one point that that reputation continues to follow him.
Harden also has a tendency to meltdown and play worse in the playoffs compared to his regular season outbursts. For the same reasons we are seeing now, because in the playoffs the refs swallow their whistles and his "style" of play gets exposed very easily. (Imagine Kobe struggling to this degree because of a rule change...)
Harden has also had plenty of help throughout his career with no ring and just ONE Finals appearance to show for it.
Imagine giving Kobe Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka as teammates, then Dwight Howard (for more than one season and not just coming off of back surgery), then prime Chris Paul, then Russell Westbrook again, then Durant and Kyrie. How many rings do you think Kobe would have...?
Kobe also would've never shown up looking like a fat Rick Ross to training camp just because he wanted to be traded. In fact Kobe put up some of his best individual seasons and worked his hardest during the seasons when he had his worst supporting casts with no realistic chance of contending.
BTW, Kobe also got snubbed out of an MVP (LOL Steve Nash) and arguably MULTIPLE MVPs (2003, 2006, 2007) with arguments for other seasons (2009, 2010) as well.
Longevity wise it's not even close. In his early 20's Harden was a bench player while Kobe was already in the running for best player in the league.
RED AUERBACH
NBA Seasons Coached: 20
Regular-Season Record: 938-479 (.662)
NBA Championships: 9
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 1
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 1969
Boston Celtics (1956-57)
Boston Celtics (1958-59)
Boston Celtics (1959-60)
Boston Celtics (1960-61)
Boston Celtics (1961-62)
Boston Celtics (1962-63)
Boston Celtics (1963-64)
Boston Celtics (1964-65)
Boston Celtics (1965-66)
LARRY BROWN
NBA Seasons Coached: 26
Regular-Season Record: 1,098-904 (.548)
NBA Championships: 1
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 1
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 2002
Detroit Pistons (2003-04)
CHUCK DALY
NBA Seasons Coached: 14
Regular-Season Record: 638-437 (.593)
NBA Championships: 2
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 1994
Detroit Pistons (1988-89)
Detroit Pistons (1989-90)
RED HOLZMAN
NBA Seasons Coached: 18
Regular-Season Record: 696-603 (.536)
NBA Championships: 2
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 1
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 1986
New York Knicks (1969-70)
New York Knicks (1972-73)
PHIL JACKSON
NBA Seasons Coached: 20 Regular-Season
Record: 1,155-485 (.704)
NBA Championships: 11
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 1
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 2007
Chicago Bulls (1990-91)
Chicago Bulls (1991-92)
Chicago Bulls (1992-93)
Chicago Bulls (1995-96)
Chicago Bulls (1996-97)
Chicago Bulls (1997-98)
Los Angeles Lakers (1999-00)
Los Angeles Lakers (2000-01)
Los Angeles Lakers (2001-02)
Los Angeles Lakers (2008-09)
Los Angeles Lakers (2009-10)
K.C. JONES
NBA Seasons Coached: 10
Regular-Season Record: 522-252 (.674)
NBA Championships: 2
Boston Celtics (1983-84)
Boston Celtics (1985-86)
STEVE KERR
NBA Seasons Coached: 8
Regular-Season Record: 406-181 (.692)
NBA Championships: 3
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 1
NBA Seasons Coached: 31
Regular-Season Record: 1,335-1,063 (.557)
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 3
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 2012
GREGG POPOVICH
NBA Seasons Coached: 26
Regular-Season Record: 1,326-681 (.661)
NBA Championships: 5
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 3
San Antonio Spurs (1998-99)
San Antonio Spurs (2002-03)
San Antonio Spurs (2004-05)
San Antonio Spurs (2006-07)
San Antonio Spurs (2013-14)
JACK RAMSAY
NBA Seasons Coached: 21
Regular-Season Record: 864-783 (.525)
NBA Championships: 1
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 1992
Portland Trail Blazers (1976-77)
PAT RILEY
NBA Seasons Coached: 24
Regular-Season Record: 1,210-694 (.636)
NBA Championships: 5
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 3
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 2008
Los Angeles Lakers (1981-82)
Los Angeles Lakers (1984-85)
Los Angeles Lakers (1986-87)
Los Angeles Lakers (1987-88)
Miami Heat (2005-06)
DOC RIVERS
NBA Seasons Coached: 23
Regular-Season Record: 1,024-725 (.585)
NBA Championships: 1
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 1
NBA Seasons Coached: 26
Regular-Season Record: 1,221-803 (.603)
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 2009
ERIK SPOELSTRA
NBA Seasons Coached: 14
Regular-Season Record: 642-444 (.591)
NBA Championships: 2
Miami Heat (2011-12)
Miami Heat (2012-13)
LENNY WILKENS
NBA Seasons Coached: 32
Regular-Season Record: 1,332-1,155 (.536)
NBA Championships: 1
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 1
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 1998 (Coach)
NBA Seasons Coached: 26
Regular-Season Record: 1,098-904 (.548)
NBA Championships: 1
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 1
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 2002
NBA Seasons Coached: 20 Regular-Season
Record: 1,155-485 (.704)
NBA Championships: 11
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 1
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 2007
Chicago Bulls (1990-91, 1991-92, 1992-93, 1995-96, 1996-97 and 1997-98)
Los Angeles Lakers (1999-00, 2000-01, 2001-02, 2008-09 and 2009-10)
NBA Seasons Coached: 24
Regular-Season Record: 1,210-694 (.636)
NBA Championships: 5
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 3
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 2008
Los Angeles Lakers (1981-82, 1984-85, 1986-87 and 1987-88)
NBA Seasons Coached: 32
Regular-Season Record: 1,332-1,155 (.536)
NBA Championships: 1
NBA Coach of the Year Awards: 1
Basketball Hall of Fame Class: 1998 (Coach)
Harden's going to get better as the season goes on and he adjusts, but the slander so many idiots put on Kobe's name in favor of a bearded fat man who has more career made free throws than made field goals was always ridiculous and pathetic. Now maybe they can see it.
Peak Harden was at an offensive level that rivaled Jordan/Shaq/Lebron/Curry. Hate on his game all you want but he got snubbed out of an MVP (lol Westbrook) and was the greatest scorer of the 3-point-revolution era. It’s not an insult to have him and Kobe compared.
The real travesty here is that Dame got in over Dwight. That makes zero sense objectively.
It kinda is, actually. He needs to pass Jerry West and Wade before you can even start to entertain the Kobe comparisons. The only thing that Harden has over Kobe is playmaking, and even that is debatable since we only got a small glimpse of what Kobe could've done in a juiced up D'Antoni offense.
Not to mention pace of game was entirely different and large part of hardens game was based on free throws. James peak was also short lived
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