I think a lot of people are just trying to COPE with the Westbrook situation
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Car54
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:20 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Westbrook as a top guy is an all star. Not sure if that means top 10 or 20 or whatever but he’s an all star and former MVP. Cant hide that he averaged 22-11-11 last year and led Wiz to the playoffs .

But that’s as a top 2 guy, here he will be part of a big 3 and likely be the third guy. The best thing Westbrook can do is adopt the mindset he needs to continue to lead, and create, but moreso when Bron sits. When Bron has the ball, Westbrook needs to cut and move off the ball. Russell should be wiling to live with 30 minute a game average (12 minutes without Bron, 18 minutes with). Sacrifice.


Yea no need for pull up off the dribble 3s. Only drives and cuts. He did well with that in Houston.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:27 pm    Post subject:

Houston’s main weakness was that they didn’t have a plan for when we blitz Harden.

So like we sag off Westbrook .... double Harden. Force the ball out of his hands. Harden doesn’t have a big guy there to help him, and he’s not Lebron IQ or playmaking wise.

I don’t know how it will work, but I don’t think we will use Westbrook like DAntoni. If I had to guess we use him like Rondo. Some nights we will hate he can’t shoot, but a lot of nights we will be amazed at his ability to turn the game in LAs favour while Bron isn’t even involved.

The key concern I have is crunch time in the clutch. Rondo cost us some games and Vogel kept faith in him. I would guess it’s the same here. But at times Vogel did go with Caruso/KCP/Green as closers. We need to find that sort of closing unit around AD/Bron especially when Westbrook’s shooting is being exposed. Sacrifice means you have to be willing to sit out in some close games in the clutch, or be willing to work on your 3 point spot shooting. We need role player Westbrook in LA when Bron is there, and MVP Westbrook when Bron sits.


Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:29 pm    Post subject:

We all have doubts about Westbrook, very strong personality, not a great shooter, has been with a lot of all-stars, but no ring as of yet.

What I'm focusing on is he wants to be here, and BOTH Lebron and AD not only said they wanted him to be here, they were willing to adjust to HIM.

If this was someone like Ingram from a couple of years ago, when he was shooting the ball like a drunk homeless guy, then yeah, I would say this will end badly. Russ has great tools still, he is a great passer to big men, the guys most likely to benefit are AD and Dwight, lots of chippies and dunks off of great feeds. And Russ wants to win, he wants to win enough to change the way he plays.

Then look at all the guys who signed up to play with us AFTER the Westbrook trade was announced. They think this can work, and were willing to take less money at the chance to win a ring, even with spotty minutes.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:30 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Houston’s main weakness was that they didn’t have a plan for when we blitz Harden.

So like we sag off Westbrook .... double Harden. Force the ball out of his hands. Harden doesn’t have a big guy there to help him, and he’s not Lebron IQ or playmaking wise.

I don’t know how it will work, but I don’t think we will use Westbrook like DAntoni. If I had to guess we use him like Rondo. Some nights we will hate he can’t shoot, but a lot of nights we will be amazed at his ability to turn the game in LAs favour while Bron isn’t even involved.

The key concern I have is crunch time in the clutch. Rondo cost us some games and Vogel kept faith in him. I would guess it’s the same here. But at times Vogel did go with Caruso/KCP/Green as closers. We need to find that sort of closing unit around AD/Bron especially when Westbrook’s shooting is being exposed.


Houston messed up by getting rid of their bigs. Russ is great with Bigs who know how to roll to the basket. Houston didn’t have that option so when we doubled Harden and backed off Russ he was left taking jumpers.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Houston’s main weakness was that they didn’t have a plan for when we blitz Harden.

So like we sag off Westbrook .... double Harden. Force the ball out of his hands. Harden doesn’t have a big guy there to help him, and he’s not Lebron IQ or playmaking wise.

I don’t know how it will work, but I don’t think we will use Westbrook like DAntoni. If I had to guess we use him like Rondo. Some nights we will hate he can’t shoot, but a lot of nights we will be amazed at his ability to turn the game in LAs favour while Bron isn’t even involved.

The key concern I have is crunch time in the clutch. Rondo cost us some games and Vogel kept faith in him. I would guess it’s the same here. But at times Vogel did go with Caruso/KCP/Green as closers. We need to find that sort of closing unit around AD/Bron especially when Westbrook’s shooting is being exposed. Sacrifice means you have to be willing to sit out in some close games in the clutch, or be willing to work on your 3 point spot shooting. We need role player Westbrook in LA when Bron is there, and MVP Westbrook when Bron sits.


Its easy to bench Rondo who is an old vet min player. In theory benching Russ at the end of games when its time for Lebron ball sounds good, but in reality Vogel isn't going to bench someone like Russ. He couldnt even bring himself to bench DS.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:46 pm    Post subject:

Nonamehero wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Nonamehero wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Kobetan wrote:
I think a lot of people who dislike this trade is coping by doing their best to persuade others to dislike the trade as well


FACTory

I would prefer Lowry but Westbrook is a beast. Imagine last years team being ran by Westbrook when Lebron and AD went down. No play in tournament. Also AD and Lebron had to keep telling DS they want to see the same aggressiveness when they get back. You won’t have to have that conversation with Westbrook. And lastly Poor George best season was when he played next to Westbrook. I hope he could do the same for Lebron


Dude all the accomplish you mentioned is in regular season.

And then he proceed to be a bonehead in playoff, and did the stupid cradle move and pissed off Lillard and got sent home first round.

The most impressive thing he ever did for his team was kidnap Paul George, so he can’t talk to the Lakers and throw him a party and forced him to sign.

But Paul George still left after realizing westbrick is westbrick


Cool don’t celebrate with us when we win it all. Keep that same energy.


Dude I want the team to win.
Critiquing our dumb moves doesn’t make me not a fan.


There is a difference between critiquing something and being a whining "Debby Downer".
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:34 pm    Post subject:

cirehawk wrote:
Nonamehero wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Nonamehero wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Kobetan wrote:
I think a lot of people who dislike this trade is coping by doing their best to persuade others to dislike the trade as well


FACTory

I would prefer Lowry but Westbrook is a beast. Imagine last years team being ran by Westbrook when Lebron and AD went down. No play in tournament. Also AD and Lebron had to keep telling DS they want to see the same aggressiveness when they get back. You won’t have to have that conversation with Westbrook. And lastly Poor George best season was when he played next to Westbrook. I hope he could do the same for Lebron


Dude all the accomplish you mentioned is in regular season.

And then he proceed to be a bonehead in playoff, and did the stupid cradle move and pissed off Lillard and got sent home first round.

The most impressive thing he ever did for his team was kidnap Paul George, so he can’t talk to the Lakers and throw him a party and forced him to sign.

But Paul George still left after realizing westbrick is westbrick


Cool don’t celebrate with us when we win it all. Keep that same energy.


Dude I want the team to win.
Critiquing our dumb moves doesn’t make me not a fan.


There is a difference between critiquing something and being a whining "Debby Downer".


I love all the crappy WB takes. Gonna throw them in a juicy thread after we win our chip and he shows up big time for us in the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:18 am    Post subject:

Ksig wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Houston’s main weakness was that they didn’t have a plan for when we blitz Harden.

So like we sag off Westbrook .... double Harden. Force the ball out of his hands. Harden doesn’t have a big guy there to help him, and he’s not Lebron IQ or playmaking wise.

I don’t know how it will work, but I don’t think we will use Westbrook like DAntoni. If I had to guess we use him like Rondo. Some nights we will hate he can’t shoot, but a lot of nights we will be amazed at his ability to turn the game in LAs favour while Bron isn’t even involved.

The key concern I have is crunch time in the clutch. Rondo cost us some games and Vogel kept faith in him. I would guess it’s the same here. But at times Vogel did go with Caruso/KCP/Green as closers. We need to find that sort of closing unit around AD/Bron especially when Westbrook’s shooting is being exposed. Sacrifice means you have to be willing to sit out in some close games in the clutch, or be willing to work on your 3 point spot shooting. We need role player Westbrook in LA when Bron is there, and MVP Westbrook when Bron sits.


Its easy to bench Rondo who is an old vet min player. In theory benching Russ at the end of games when its time for Lebron ball sounds good, but in reality Vogel isn't going to bench someone like Russ. He couldnt even bring himself to bench DS.

I agree with your point here. In theory, a secondary QB should be coming in off the bench ala Rondo. However, like with Dennis, we will start Westbrook. And there will be moments that Westbrooks shooting will haunt us.

The key difference could be the ability of RW to get inside to the teeth of a defense and then find open bigs for dunks, or kick out shooters for 3s. With Dennis, when he drove, 80% of the time you knew it was going to be shot. You also saw some very poor decision making. With RW, you may see some of that, but probably not to the same level of annoyance and frustration. Dennis played well sometimes, and his decision making on passes and all that were on occasion great, but usually not what we wanted. He was a quality scorer. With Westbrook, you probably get similar things, only with a much high level of passing and ability to control the game. That is something Dennis simply could not do - control a game from the QB position.

We also have options for players who could do things that we did not have last year in Monk (3 baller in prime) Nunn (Can drive a bit, shoot 3s, etc) and could theoretically run lineups like AD, Bron, Baze, Monk, Nunn. Not sure if that lineup can defend the way we want, but that is where Vogel comes in. I am sure training camp will be dedicated to the defense.

In general, I would probably not have made the Westbrook move, unless he was willing to sacrifice his minutes and some usage rate. Perhaps he really is but his history says he will not alter how he plays. If Westbrook is able to play more like Rondo, where he takes over when Bron sits and we stagger them a little, I think it will work out. If he does what he always has with Harden, Durant, George etc. I do not think it will be smooth, and we will face some of the same issues.

Westbrook should study how the team used Dennis last year, and try to absolutely dominate in that same role, as he is a better player, particularly a better shot creator for teammates. I want 15 points, 8 assists, 8 boards RW, personally. He can push the ball off rebounds, a weapon only Bron previously had. There are some major advantages to Westbrook over Dennis, but almost the same exact weakness that was exposed in the playoffs (3 point shooting).

I do not think he should be averaging and using the ball the same way as past teams and this will be the key adjustment. Lets see what happens. I am not expecting a title, but it is exciting to know you have 3 all-stars on opening night to work with. We are not DAntoni, where we will force Westbrook to shoot 3s or layups. There will be some mid-range game in there as well, and we probably will tell him to cut. It is on Westbrook to see if he really wants to win and alter his game.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:41 pm    Post subject:

All you westbrick hopefuls

Where are you at?

Even in a game we won.

Westbrick is clearly not helping.

Please let me hear your reasoning how Westbrick is the best choice for us.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:42 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
cirehawk wrote:
Nonamehero wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Nonamehero wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Kobetan wrote:
I think a lot of people who dislike this trade is coping by doing their best to persuade others to dislike the trade as well


FACTory

I would prefer Lowry but Westbrook is a beast. Imagine last years team being ran by Westbrook when Lebron and AD went down. No play in tournament. Also AD and Lebron had to keep telling DS they want to see the same aggressiveness when they get back. You won’t have to have that conversation with Westbrook. And lastly Poor George best season was when he played next to Westbrook. I hope he could do the same for Lebron


Dude all the accomplish you mentioned is in regular season.

And then he proceed to be a bonehead in playoff, and did the stupid cradle move and pissed off Lillard and got sent home first round.

The most impressive thing he ever did for his team was kidnap Paul George, so he can’t talk to the Lakers and throw him a party and forced him to sign.

But Paul George still left after realizing westbrick is westbrick


Cool don’t celebrate with us when we win it all. Keep that same energy.


Dude I want the team to win.
Critiquing our dumb moves doesn’t make me not a fan.


There is a difference between critiquing something and being a whining "Debby Downer".


I love all the crappy WB takes. Gonna throw them in a juicy thread after we win our chip and he shows up big time for us in the playoffs.


Still feeling confident of westbrick?
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2019
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:44 pm    Post subject:

Nonamehero wrote:
kikanga wrote:
cirehawk wrote:
Nonamehero wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Nonamehero wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Kobetan wrote:
I think a lot of people who dislike this trade is coping by doing their best to persuade others to dislike the trade as well


FACTory

I would prefer Lowry but Westbrook is a beast. Imagine last years team being ran by Westbrook when Lebron and AD went down. No play in tournament. Also AD and Lebron had to keep telling DS they want to see the same aggressiveness when they get back. You won’t have to have that conversation with Westbrook. And lastly Poor George best season was when he played next to Westbrook. I hope he could do the same for Lebron


Dude all the accomplish you mentioned is in regular season.

And then he proceed to be a bonehead in playoff, and did the stupid cradle move and pissed off Lillard and got sent home first round.

The most impressive thing he ever did for his team was kidnap Paul George, so he can’t talk to the Lakers and throw him a party and forced him to sign.

But Paul George still left after realizing westbrick is westbrick


Cool don’t celebrate with us when we win it all. Keep that same energy.


Dude I want the team to win.
Critiquing our dumb moves doesn’t make me not a fan.


There is a difference between critiquing something and being a whining "Debby Downer".


I love all the crappy WB takes. Gonna throw them in a juicy thread after we win our chip and he shows up big time for us in the playoffs.


Still feeling confident of westbrick?


Seems like you want your victory lap. Go read any other thread and there is not a single poster still defending Russ or thinking this was a good move.

The best anyone can say his hopefully 2nd half of the season once the team gels more, he won't be as big of an issue.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:58 pm    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
Nonamehero wrote:
kikanga wrote:
cirehawk wrote:
Nonamehero wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Nonamehero wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Kobetan wrote:
I think a lot of people who dislike this trade is coping by doing their best to persuade others to dislike the trade as well


FACTory

I would prefer Lowry but Westbrook is a beast. Imagine last years team being ran by Westbrook when Lebron and AD went down. No play in tournament. Also AD and Lebron had to keep telling DS they want to see the same aggressiveness when they get back. You won’t have to have that conversation with Westbrook. And lastly Poor George best season was when he played next to Westbrook. I hope he could do the same for Lebron


Dude all the accomplish you mentioned is in regular season.

And then he proceed to be a bonehead in playoff, and did the stupid cradle move and pissed off Lillard and got sent home first round.

The most impressive thing he ever did for his team was kidnap Paul George, so he can’t talk to the Lakers and throw him a party and forced him to sign.

But Paul George still left after realizing westbrick is westbrick


Cool don’t celebrate with us when we win it all. Keep that same energy.


Dude I want the team to win.
Critiquing our dumb moves doesn’t make me not a fan.


There is a difference between critiquing something and being a whining "Debby Downer".


I love all the crappy WB takes. Gonna throw them in a juicy thread after we win our chip and he shows up big time for us in the playoffs.


Still feeling confident of westbrick?


Seems like you want your victory lap. Go read any other thread and there is not a single poster still defending Russ or thinking this was a good move.

The best anyone can say his hopefully 2nd half of the season once the team gels more, he won't be as big of an issue.


Dude I am a Lakers fan. There is no victory for me.
It broken me when we made the trade.
I knew we were screwed.
Of course I come to the forum to tear with other Lakers fellow.

It was unbelievable to me that so many people were in denial at the time.

And I wished I was wrong, and Westbrick can
1. Stop being a turnover machine
2. Have a better shooting mechanic
3. Become a team defensive player
4. Make good decisions in clutch
5. Move off the ball
6. Better shot selection

Things that he never done in his entire career.
Basically we expected him to morph into a different player once he join the Lakers.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:32 pm    Post subject:

OP was always right to anyone paying attention. However, there's nothing we could do at this point so I can't fault anyone for being optimistic. Coping is all us fans can do, really.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:50 am    Post subject:

11 games, early-ish, as a mod said, Xmas game judgement
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:16 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
11 games, early-ish, as a mod said, Xmas game judgement



As another poster mentioned, he's pretty untradeable. Lots of
judgements will come and go by seasons end.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:03 am    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
Seems like you want your victory lap. Go read any other thread and there is not a single poster still defending Russ or thinking this was a good move.


Before we made the Westbrook trade, I was pretty vocal in my dislike for Westbrook. I wrote a post saying that, if we traded for him, it would be funny to see everyone turn on him once the season started.

I was wrong. It isn't funny at all. We have to cross our fingers and hope that he can get it together, and that Vogel can find a way to make this work. Otherwise, it's the fans of other teams who will be doing the laughing. At us.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:53 am    Post subject:

Good news, we are not far off from an effective RW.

In the Hornets game, I saw several times where he held off taking a shot (usually a 3 pointer). He was actually thinking on court, knowing that it would not be a high percentage shot, and then he made the pass. So, I think he is understanding his role, and he's cognizant of what he should and should not be doing on the court.

I think he'd be even more restrained when we get THT back, and of course Lebron. I don't think he'll feel the need to do so much with Lebron, and THT is actually a similar, yet more refined version of RW.

At full strength, I think RW may work out for us. Of course, I'm being uncharastically optimistic AF.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:31 pm    Post subject:

troy wrote:
Good news, we are not far off from an effective RW.

In the Hornets game, I saw several times where he held off taking a shot (usually a 3 pointer). He was actually thinking on court, knowing that it would not be a high percentage shot, and then he made the pass. So, I think he is understanding his role, and he's cognizant of what he should and should not be doing on the court.

I think he'd be even more restrained when we get THT back, and of course Lebron. I don't think he'll feel the need to do so much with Lebron, and THT is actually a similar, yet more refined version of RW.

At full strength, I think RW may work out for us. Of course, I'm being uncharastically optimistic AF.


I really hope so.

But I just don’t see it, I really dislike Russ as a player and his basketball IQ.
I hope to God he proves me wrong.

But I can’t see how a veteran player haven’t been able to improve on his flaws for so many year, and these flaws are glaring. And we are expecting him to do it.

1. Stop being a turnover machine
2. Have a better shooting mechanic
3. Become a team defensive player
4. Make good decisions in clutch
5. Move off the ball
6. Better shot selection


Really either he just can’t see his own flaws, or he is incapable of improving on these at all, or a bit of both.

Especially shooting mechanic, this is something he should have fixed years ago during off-season. Not sure why he is still shooting on the way down.
Is it just his nerve system are not allowing him to do that?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:41 pm    Post subject:

deal wrote:
governator wrote:
11 games, early-ish, as a mod said, Xmas game judgement



As another poster mentioned, he's pretty untradeable. Lots of
judgements will come and go by seasons end.


Xmas is pretty good date, all the signings are eligible to trade so hopefully we don’t trade
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:36 pm    Post subject:

troy wrote:
Good news, we are not far off from an effective RW.

In the Hornets game, I saw several times where he held off taking a shot (usually a 3 pointer). He was actually thinking on court, knowing that it would not be a high percentage shot, and then he made the pass. So, I think he is understanding his role, and he's cognizant of what he should and should not be doing on the court.

I think he'd be even more restrained when we get THT back, and of course Lebron. I don't think he'll feel the need to do so much with Lebron, and THT is actually a similar, yet more refined version of RW.

At full strength, I think RW may work out for us. Of course, I'm being uncharastically optimistic AF.

Agreed. Westbrook will always be impulsive, which will lead to turnovers, sometimes when he does something that's a good idea but the execution is a little too hurried.

But he's trying to not make risky plays early in the shot clock when we don't have anything while still being aggressive and getting us into a running game.

Getting him was a better choice IMO than trading for Buddy Hield and letting an aging LeBron be our only floor general and facilitator. Rondo just can't help us with that enough at his age.

I don't understand how we're all concerned about Lebron's mileage and wear and tear, yet many here wanted him to be our only floor general and facilitator.

If we traded for Hield we wouldn't have been able to get a PG who would've significantly reduced LeBron's workload.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:04 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
troy wrote:
Good news, we are not far off from an effective RW.

In the Hornets game, I saw several times where he held off taking a shot (usually a 3 pointer). He was actually thinking on court, knowing that it would not be a high percentage shot, and then he made the pass. So, I think he is understanding his role, and he's cognizant of what he should and should not be doing on the court.

I think he'd be even more restrained when we get THT back, and of course Lebron. I don't think he'll feel the need to do so much with Lebron, and THT is actually a similar, yet more refined version of RW.

At full strength, I think RW may work out for us. Of course, I'm being uncharastically optimistic AF.

Agreed. Westbrook will always be impulsive, which will lead to turnovers, sometimes when he does something that's a good idea but the execution is a little too hurried.

But he's trying to not make risky plays early in the shot clock when we don't have anything while still being aggressive and getting us into a running game.

Getting him was a better choice IMO than trading for Buddy Hield and letting an aging LeBron be our only floor general and facilitator. Rondo just can't help us with that enough at his age.

I don't understand how we're all concerned about Lebron's mileage and wear and tear, yet many here wanted him to be our only floor general and facilitator.

If we traded for Hield we wouldn't have been able to get a PG who would've significantly reduced LeBron's workload.


Lebron playing with Westbrook is playing a lot of minutes just to squeeze out W against crap team.

Westbrick is not making it easy for Lebron.

If we had a good team, we would be blowing out team early.
And Lebron would be able to rest more or play with less efforts.

I don’t see a hair of evidence that westbrick is making Lebron life easier
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:41 pm    Post subject:

Westbrook has been a huge bust - and I was very optimistic and excited when we signed him

However, it’s become apparently obvious it’s not working
Here and the sooner we realize this, the quicker we can
Become a better team.

We might not be able to trade him, but we can sit him or move him to the second unit.
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PICKnPOP
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Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 5356

PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:38 pm    Post subject:

Years ago when Westbrook won the mvp i said that a team team could never win a ring with him. Fast forward to 2021 and I still believe that, but I purchased a Westbrook jersey at the game. I loathe Westbrook but I love the lakers, so all I can do is hope I was wrong. Hope Lebron can do something no other star could do before him. Win a ring with a low IQ, non shooting, turnover machine for a point guard. Go lake show!
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Nonamehero
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Joined: 31 Oct 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:30 pm    Post subject:

PICKnPOP wrote:
Years ago when Westbrook won the mvp i said that a team team could never win a ring with him. Fast forward to 2021 and I still believe that, but I purchased a Westbrook jersey at the game. I loathe Westbrook but I love the lakers, so all I can do is hope I was wrong. Hope Lebron can do something no other star could do before him. Win a ring with a low IQ, non shooting, turnover machine for a point guard. Go lake show!


Westbrick wouldn’t be a star if he was drafted now.

His skill set doesn’t fit in the current league.

He got lucky when he was drafted, people valued his athleticism and ability to attack the rim more than Harden.

The league have completely changed, and Russ haven’t adapt a tiny bit
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:28 pm    Post subject:

Nonamehero wrote:
Westbrick wouldn’t be a star if he was drafted now.


Westbrook is off to his worse start since he was a young player. Yet despite that he's averaging 19/9/9/1.5. He's still a star right now. He may not be a superstar but he's absolutely a star.

The guy was a league MVP a few seasons ago. Top 75 of all time. 9 time All-NBA. Led the league in assist 3 of the past four years. Also led the league in scoring twice. He has flaws, but give the man his due.
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