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J.C. Smith Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 12665
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Well I think you can view the talk in two ways. Either they are trying to pump up his value or they are actually willing to ride it out another season. I'm hoping the former, but given the signs we've seen from this front office I'm expecting the latter.
If that is the case it's going to be a huge black eye for the team because what exactly is going to be different? Unless they strike gold with a rookie head coach the coaching situation is going to be a lateral move. They can hope for some offseason improvements from THT and Reaves but they also are facing losing Monk who was a solid contributor last season. They'll only have flexibility to fill out their roster with minimums. It's going to be the same result in a different season and that is unacceptable.
If you feel that trading Russ hurts more than it helps then you either have to trade Lebron and/or AD. Problem is AD is a much better fit with Lebron than Westbrook. The only scenario where you should even entertain not trading Westbrook after all the crap of last season would be if you are trading Lebron and AD and just want to let him run out his last year and start fresh next summer. I can understand that route, but even in that case I'd probably just force him to give something up in a buyout rather than playing him as I don't see the positives in him being on the team. All he'll do is stunt the growth of younger players. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 11:45 am Post subject: |
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J.C. Smith wrote: | Well I think you can view the talk in two ways. Either they are trying to pump up his value or they are actually willing to ride it out another season. I'm hoping the former, but given the signs we've seen from this front office I'm expecting the latter.
If that is the case it's going to be a huge black eye for the team because what exactly is going to be different? Unless they strike gold with a rookie head coach the coaching situation is going to be a lateral move. They can hope for some offseason improvements from THT and Reaves but they also are facing losing Monk who was a solid contributor last season. They'll only have flexibility to fill out their roster with minimums. It's going to be the same result in a different season and that is unacceptable.
If you feel that trading Russ hurts more than it helps then you either have to trade Lebron and/or AD. Problem is AD is a much better fit with Lebron than Westbrook. The only scenario where you should even entertain not trading Westbrook after all the crap of last season would be if you are trading Lebron and AD and just want to let him run out his last year and start fresh next summer. I can understand that route, but even in that case I'd probably just force him to give something up in a buyout rather than playing him as I don't see the positives in him being on the team. All he'll do is stunt the growth of younger players. |
What realistic Westbrook trade meets your criteria? I'm not talking about stuff that comes out of IG's fish bowl. I can understand why you think that a buyout would be a good idea, but otherwise you are assuming that we have options that may not exist in the real world. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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J.C. Smith Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 12665
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | What realistic Westbrook trade meets your criteria? I'm not talking about stuff that comes out of IG's fish bowl. I can understand why you think that a buyout would be a good idea, but otherwise you are assuming that we have options that may not exist in the real world. |
It's tough to say because we really don't know how viable any of them are. But I'd be happy if they could land Rozier despite the length of his contract its a movable deal and he could fit with Lebron. While I'm not a big fan of Heyward (injuries) or Hield (defense), if you are keeping Lebron flipping Westbrook for 2 or 3 role players is preferable to bringing back Russ and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
This next section isn't targeted at Aeneas Hunter or anyone else. It's just my personal thoughts on why I feel this way.
Chemistry and fit matter. We already know what that road leads to. Why waste another year going down it? Russ is not flexible. He is not willing to play consistent defense. He has a terrible attitude and Lakers fans have used him as a whipping boy. I can't see any way it works with him back in purple and gold next season, so they would basically be punting another season and wasting another year of Lebron. They are tanking without a lottery pick in that scenario.
The Lakers need to figure out what their goals are. If they feel the window has closed on this team then own up to it and trade Lebron and AD and try to restock on some young talent and shorten the rebuild. If they feel they can still win with that combination (or by trading AD and keeping Lebron) then they need to be putting a team on the court that can win. And there is no combination of Russ and Lebron that I can see doing that. They both need the ball in their hands, Westbrook in particular. If you take the ball out of his hands the defense can simply load up on everyone else. If you put the ball in his hands you are taking it out of Lebron's.
The Lakers title team had great chemistry. The next season it slipped. Last season it was terrible. And Westbrook was the catalyst of that. He refused to buy in to what the team needed him to do. The coaching staff and the players all wanted him gone by the deadline. You can't bring him back or else it's just going to be more of the same. If you can't find a trade for him you let him sit at home and force him to either accept a buyout or lose one of the final years of his career imo.
I'm not a huge fan of surrendering picks just to get rid of him, unless its a deal that makes sense. But the reality is that the Lakers need to either go all in on winning now, or they need to blow it up and start over. Because standing pat will just result in a lottery pick for the Pelicans, Lebron walking next Summer, and AD being a part of the Pelicans West with little in the way of assets. They'd have AD with 2 years left on his deal and THT with a player option and nothing else.
I'm personally fine with either option. Blow it up and hasten the rebuild. Or trade Russ for the best deal possible and try to at least put a competitive team out there that can contend in the playoffs. But standing pat just makes no sense to me. If that's the case then Jeanie Buss is the polar opposite of her father. There is no way he would stand pat here. He'd be shoving all in with his pair of 7s.
I can live with the Lakers swinging and missing. I can't get on board with the Lakers willingly wasting the final years of a superstar's prime and then being a bad team with few paths to rebuild for the next few years. That to me is a move that the Sacramento Kings would do. Phil should be forced to wear a cowbell around his neck if that is what he is suggesting. |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 16656
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 7:22 am Post subject: |
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I think what the Lakers are hoping for and this is big part of why they got rid of a championship winning coach - winning coach without WB/different team - is that they believe if a new strong voice came in and a coach who say ran things more like Phil Jackson - and whom was willing to use the press to send messages - such as even openly state in a introduction press conference that they would be bringing Westbrook off the bench - it gives the Lakers FO a lot more power over Westbrook and the situation than they feel they had last season.
I think they felt helpless last season as they didn't have a coach who was willing to do the Phil/media/harsh line tactics to get WB to play the wanted, but also didn't have the means to re-do the trade and bring back the team they once had. So since they've concluded they can not re-do the situation and get KCP level, Caruso level, Danny Green/Dennis Schroeder level, Trez level, Kuz level group of 5 players around AD/Bron, that making the most of what Westbrook brings is the way to go. It's for them like this - either we make WB work or we even do a more lopsided trade that makes us look worse.
If say the new coach comes in 2 weeks from now (I think we will have hire someone by then) and says that WB will be coming off the bench in his "vision" (which is really Phil/Rambis/FO vision) then what's going to happen here. Either Westbrook demands a trade (which he will not get as no one wants to trade for him in a way that works for the Lakers interests) or he can opt out. Then Pelinka plays nice with Westbrook's agent and shows him the options. Option 1) You come off the bench for the new coach 2) You opt out and we will even try to get you S+T to a playoff contender.
We don't know what WB's reaction is going to be to the new situation. 1) He could love the way the new coach is going to use him. 2) He could hate it (6th man role). From the Lakers pespective both of those scenarios are better than trading him to appease the fans and AD/Bron who want roster balance, Becasue doing so costs a lot of draft picks and also requires Pelinka to get creative with trades which is not his strong suit. This entire coaching search is just a means to get someone in who can handle the WB situation, as they knew Frank was never going to do it. With that in mind, I think Mark Jackson is likely the guy who would be willing to send WB to the bench (and force his way out) and Stotts would be the guy willing to appease WB and play the offense around his needs. That's just my guess.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Wed May 18, 2022 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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epic_ Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2020 Posts: 11310
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 11:20 am Post subject: |
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J.C. Smith wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | What realistic Westbrook trade meets your criteria? I'm not talking about stuff that comes out of IG's fish bowl. I can understand why you think that a buyout would be a good idea, but otherwise you are assuming that we have options that may not exist in the real world. |
It's tough to say because we really don't know how viable any of them are. But I'd be happy if they could land Rozier despite the length of his contract its a movable deal and he could fit with Lebron. While I'm not a big fan of Heyward (injuries) or Hield (defense), if you are keeping Lebron flipping Westbrook for 2 or 3 role players is preferable to bringing back Russ and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
This next section isn't targeted at Aeneas Hunter or anyone else. It's just my personal thoughts on why I feel this way.
Chemistry and fit matter. We already know what that road leads to. Why waste another year going down it? Russ is not flexible. He is not willing to play consistent defense. He has a terrible attitude and Lakers fans have used him as a whipping boy. I can't see any way it works with him back in purple and gold next season, so they would basically be punting another season and wasting another year of Lebron. They are tanking without a lottery pick in that scenario.
The Lakers need to figure out what their goals are. If they feel the window has closed on this team then own up to it and trade Lebron and AD and try to restock on some young talent and shorten the rebuild. If they feel they can still win with that combination (or by trading AD and keeping Lebron) then they need to be putting a team on the court that can win. And there is no combination of Russ and Lebron that I can see doing that. They both need the ball in their hands, Westbrook in particular. If you take the ball out of his hands the defense can simply load up on everyone else. If you put the ball in his hands you are taking it out of Lebron's.
The Lakers title team had great chemistry. The next season it slipped. Last season it was terrible. And Westbrook was the catalyst of that. He refused to buy in to what the team needed him to do. The coaching staff and the players all wanted him gone by the deadline. You can't bring him back or else it's just going to be more of the same. If you can't find a trade for him you let him sit at home and force him to either accept a buyout or lose one of the final years of his career imo.
I'm not a huge fan of surrendering picks just to get rid of him, unless its a deal that makes sense. But the reality is that the Lakers need to either go all in on winning now, or they need to blow it up and start over. Because standing pat will just result in a lottery pick for the Pelicans, Lebron walking next Summer, and AD being a part of the Pelicans West with little in the way of assets. They'd have AD with 2 years left on his deal and THT with a player option and nothing else.
I'm personally fine with either option. Blow it up and hasten the rebuild. Or trade Russ for the best deal possible and try to at least put a competitive team out there that can contend in the playoffs. But standing pat just makes no sense to me. If that's the case then Jeanie Buss is the polar opposite of her father. There is no way he would stand pat here. He'd be shoving all in with his pair of 7s.
I can live with the Lakers swinging and missing. I can't get on board with the Lakers willingly wasting the final years of a superstar's prime and then being a bad team with few paths to rebuild for the next few years. That to me is a move that the Sacramento Kings would do. Phil should be forced to wear a cowbell around his neck if that is what he is suggesting. |
The problem is there is no obvious or simple route to fixing the Westbrook mistake.
My guess is the Lakers will keep Lebron and AD. They'll try to trade Westbrook, but won't find a workable deal.
I am not expecting some magical fix. |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 16656
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 11:39 am Post subject: |
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I asked if it was. according to you it is. |
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lakersfan8 Star Player
Joined: 27 May 2014 Posts: 2991
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 6:40 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | I think what the Lakers are hoping for and this is big part of why they got rid of a championship winning coach - winning coach without WB/different team - is that they believe if a new strong voice came in and a coach who say ran things more like Phil Jackson - and whom was willing to use the press to send messages - such as even openly state in a introduction press conference that they would be bringing Westbrook off the bench - it gives the Lakers FO a lot more power over Westbrook and the situation than they feel they had last season.
I think they felt helpless last season as they didn't have a coach who was willing to do the Phil/media/harsh line tactics to get WB to play the wanted, but also didn't have the means to re-do the trade and bring back the team they once had. So since they've concluded they can not re-do the situation and get KCP level, Caruso level, Danny Green/Dennis Schroeder level, Trez level, Kuz level group of 5 players around AD/Bron, that making the most of what Westbrook brings is the way to go. It's for them like this - either we make WB work or we even do a more lopsided trade that makes us look worse.
If say the new coach comes in 2 weeks from now (I think we will have hire someone by then) and says that WB will be coming off the bench in his "vision" (which is really Phil/Rambis/FO vision) then what's going to happen here. Either Westbrook demands a trade (which he will not get as no one wants to trade for him in a way that works for the Lakers interests) or he can opt out. Then Pelinka plays nice with Westbrook's agent and shows him the options. Option 1) You come off the bench for the new coach 2) You opt out and we will even try to get you S+T to a playoff contender.
We don't know what WB's reaction is going to be to the new situation. 1) He could love the way the new coach is going to use him. 2) He could hate it (6th man role). From the Lakers pespective both of those scenarios are better than trading him to appease the fans and AD/Bron who want roster balance, Becasue doing so costs a lot of draft picks and also requires Pelinka to get creative with trades which is not his strong suit. This entire coaching search is just a means to get someone in who can handle the WB situation, as they knew Frank was never going to do it. With that in mind, I think Mark Jackson is likely the guy who would be willing to send WB to the bench (and force his way out) and Stotts would be the guy willing to appease WB and play the offense around his needs. That's just my guess. |
I will give you a third scenario. Westbrook doesn't option out because he wants the money. Lakers tries to trade him but fails. He is not satisfy with the 6th man role so he stops listening to the coach. What do you do at that point? |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 6:45 am Post subject: |
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^
John Wall-Houston, him. Again, I think that is why the coach being on the same page as FO is key to them. If they want to bring him off the bench, the coach has to 100% keep that hard line. It actually isn't a bad idea, it makes sense in theory. It made sense last year. But the situation last year is that WB thought he was a big 3, and a star and the team was built that way. With the failures of the big 3 are they willing to change things around if given no choice but to play together? Me thinks no. I agree with you, he won't go for it, and I think AD/Bron also don't want to play with a disgruntled WB.
I think his career stats are maybe the most important thing overlooked here. Sitting out or pouting hurt his HOF resume in terms of stats. He's already a guy likely to end up with 0 rings as a star player (maybe will get 1 as a role guy late in his career). So lets see.
More I think about this, being that Mark Jackson was a point guard himself, I think Mark is getting the job. The Lakers FO get a NBA point guard to deal with a point guard issue, and he's a Klutch client too.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Thu May 19, 2022 6:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 6:45 am Post subject: |
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lakersfan8 wrote: | I will give you a third scenario. Westbrook doesn't option out because he wants the money. Lakers tries to trade him but fails. He is not satisfy with the 6th man role so he stops listening to the coach. What do you do at that point? |
That's a very real scenario. Any coach who takes the job would have his hands full. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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lakersfan8 Star Player
Joined: 27 May 2014 Posts: 2991
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Westbrook is one of the worst team defenders. He has very poor defensive awareness, he is always at the wrong place and he loses his man frequently. However, his one on one defense on ball handler is relatively not bad. That's why you saw teams targetted Monk, Anthony or even Reaves on isolation but you didn't see they targetted Westbrook in that way very often. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 6:52 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | More I think about this, being that Mark Jackson was a point guard himself, I think Mark is getting the job. The Lakers FO get a NBA point guard to deal with a point guard issue, and he's a Klutch client too. |
The backlash from hiring Jackson would be frightening. But you're not wrong in thinking that it could happen. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | More I think about this, being that Mark Jackson was a point guard himself, I think Mark is getting the job. The Lakers FO get a NBA point guard to deal with a point guard issue, and he's a Klutch client too. |
The backlash from hiring Jackson would be frightening. But you're not wrong in thinking that it could happen. |
It depends what angle you look at it.
You'll have a herd of media pundits like SAS applaud the move, as a black basketball coach is hired for an "elite" position. They've been crying about his lack of job status for a long time.
Klutch is happy, Lebron/AD are happy.
FO gets a former NBA point guard who will be willing to tell Westbrook what they want.
He's a good talker. He's well known.
The actual merits of the coaching may not be what we want to see as Laker fans, but my money is on him getting the job if Rivers is in fact not getting fired. I can't see us hire someone like Stotts or Ham and ask him to deal with the WB situation. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 7:05 am Post subject: |
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I think the pundits would slaughter us. By the way, Mark Jackson is not actually a client of Rich Paul. That was an erroneous report that made the rounds in the blogosphere. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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JUST-MING Retired Number
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 7:08 am Post subject: |
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Halflife wrote: | This is fake right?
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What's his tyrannosaurus rex score? |
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lakersfan8 Star Player
Joined: 27 May 2014 Posts: 2991
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 7:09 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^
John Wall-Houston, him. Again, I think that is why the coach being on the same page as FO is key to them. If they want to bring him off the bench, the coach has to 100% keep that hard line. It actually isn't a bad idea, it makes sense in theory. It made sense last year. But the situation last year is that WB thought he was a big 3, and a star and the team was built that way. With the failures of the big 3 are they willing to change things around if given no choice but to play together? Me thinks no. I agree with you, he won't go for it, and I think AD/Bron also don't want to play with a disgruntled WB.
I think his career stats are maybe the most important thing overlooked here. Sitting out or pouting hurt his HOF resume in terms of stats. He's already a guy likely to end up with 0 rings as a star player (maybe will get 1 as a role guy late in his career). So lets see.
More I think about this, being that Mark Jackson was a point guard himself, I think Mark is getting the job. The Lakers FO get a NBA point guard to deal with a point guard issue, and he's a Klutch client too. |
When we traded for Westbrook last year, we expected him to change and he refused. Are we really going to repeat the same steps again this offseason?
I don't have a real solution for the Westbrook situation. I am just saying you have to prepare for the worst with your approach especially when we have already seen how Westbrook's ego affected the team last season.
I agree we need a guy in the coaching staff to deal with Westbrook specifically but I don't want the head coach to be hired purely for that reason because Westbrook most likely, is only going to be here for another year. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I think the pundits would slaughter us. By the way, Mark Jackson is not actually a client of Rich Paul. That was an erroneous report that made the rounds in the blogosphere. |
Interesting. I didn't know. There was also a report that Lebron would support his hiring. Wonder if that's actually true.
I'd like to think we will try for someone truly elite and that gives us a better coaching staff, but based on who we have interviewed so far, I'm guessing we end up with Jackson. Hope I'm wrong though.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Thu May 19, 2022 7:14 am; edited 2 times in total |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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lakersfan8 wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^
John Wall-Houston, him. Again, I think that is why the coach being on the same page as FO is key to them. If they want to bring him off the bench, the coach has to 100% keep that hard line. It actually isn't a bad idea, it makes sense in theory. It made sense last year. But the situation last year is that WB thought he was a big 3, and a star and the team was built that way. With the failures of the big 3 are they willing to change things around if given no choice but to play together? Me thinks no. I agree with you, he won't go for it, and I think AD/Bron also don't want to play with a disgruntled WB.
I think his career stats are maybe the most important thing overlooked here. Sitting out or pouting hurt his HOF resume in terms of stats. He's already a guy likely to end up with 0 rings as a star player (maybe will get 1 as a role guy late in his career). So lets see.
More I think about this, being that Mark Jackson was a point guard himself, I think Mark is getting the job. The Lakers FO get a NBA point guard to deal with a point guard issue, and he's a Klutch client too. |
When we traded for Westbrook last year, we expected him to change and he refused. Are we really going to repeat the same steps again this offseason?
I don't have a real solution for the Westbrook situation. I am just saying you have to prepare for the worst with your approach especially when we have already seen how Westbrook's ego affected the team last season.
I agree we need a guy in the coaching staff to deal with Westbrook specifically but I don't want the head coach to be hired purely for that reason because Westbrook most likely, is only going to be here for another year. |
If they traded for Westbrook expecting him to change then the FO are more clueless than we thought. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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epic_ Franchise Player
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pjiddy Retired Number
Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 29017
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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epic_ wrote: | https://mobile.twitter.com/chiapet74/status/1528514855656824832
Rus in a league of his own. |
That is Wilt-esque in how far ahead he is vs the entire NBA. I knew he was one of the worst 3 point shooters in the NBA, but not the Shaq of missing wide open 3s.
LOOK WHERE DWIGHT IS IN RELATION TO RUSS.
DWIGHT |
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jonnybravo Retired Number
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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pjiddy wrote: | epic_ wrote: | https://mobile.twitter.com/chiapet74/status/1528514855656824832
Rus in a league of his own. |
That is Wilt-esque in how far ahead he is vs the entire NBA. I knew he was one of the worst 3 point shooters in the NBA, but not the Shaq of missing wide open 3s.
LOOK WHERE DWIGHT IS IN RELATION TO RUSS.
DWIGHT |
He is literally the Anti-Curry. Just straight up hot garbage. _________________ KOBE |
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phantasyman Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 Jun 2008 Posts: 635
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Westbrook will turn this franchise around. He will have a break out season |
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epic_ Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2020 Posts: 11310
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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jonnybravo wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | epic_ wrote: | https://mobile.twitter.com/chiapet74/status/1528514855656824832
Rus in a league of his own. |
That is Wilt-esque in how far ahead he is vs the entire NBA. I knew he was one of the worst 3 point shooters in the NBA, but not the Shaq of missing wide open 3s.
LOOK WHERE DWIGHT IS IN RELATION TO RUSS.
DWIGHT |
He is literally the Anti-Curry. Just straight up hot garbage. |
Guys chill.
3 point shooting isn't important in today's NBA. _________________ ππ π π π #18!!! |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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phantasyman wrote: | Westbrook will turn this franchise around. He will have a break out season |
I want a breakup. Not a Russ βbreak out.β _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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