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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:15 am    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
Russ was on a streak of solid game going back 2-3 weeks and then just fall off the cliff. And his body language shows it too there’s something going on behind the scene. People may criticize Russ’ shot making and turnovers but no one can question his hustle. But recent games he just seemed don’t care on both ends of the floor. Maybe he’s tanking his value to stay in LA?


His streak of solid games came against weak opponents, but even then he was turning the ball over too much. His game has cratered since LeBron told him to cut down the turnovers. He's just an all-around liability.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:19 am    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
Russ was on a streak of solid game going back 2-3 weeks and then just fall off the cliff. And his body language shows it too there’s something going on behind the scene. People may criticize Russ’ shot making and turnovers but no one can question his hustle. But recent games he just seemed don’t care on both ends of the floor. Maybe he’s tanking his value to stay in LA?


His hustle to pad his stat line over fundamental basketball is commendable. Hes built a successful career out of it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:25 am    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
But recent games he just seemed don’t care on both ends of the floor. Maybe he’s tanking his value to stay in LA?


I think he's pouting. Hopefully, he comes out of it. This season could still be salvaged. Westbrook needs to decide which way he wants to go.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:33 am    Post subject:

KD is one of the all time greats and arguably the greatest scorer, but even he wants multiple elite shot creators collapsing defenses. He has Harden, Kyrie and now Patty Mills. Russ is a great play maker

In the context of Lebron's age, I appreciate why he wanted a primary ball handler. In the context of our situation, it's a shame Russ was the only option available.

His usage was only 18% last night. I honestly don't understand why that was the game plan.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:37 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
SGV-Laker fan wrote:
But recent games he just seemed don’t care on both ends of the floor. Maybe he’s tanking his value to stay in LA?


I think he's pouting. Hopefully, he comes out of it. This season could still be salvaged. Westbrook needs to decide which way he wants to go.


Getting harder to see him ahead of our better 3pt shooting guards unless his defense is superior to them, we don't really need his ball handling since Bron is balling at point center, maybe with AD back things will change, looking bleak tho
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:52 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
SGV-Laker fan wrote:
But recent games he just seemed don’t care on both ends of the floor. Maybe he’s tanking his value to stay in LA?


I think he's pouting. Hopefully, he comes out of it. This season could still be salvaged. Westbrook needs to decide which way he wants to go.


Getting harder to see him ahead of our better 3pt shooting guards unless his defense is superior to them, we don't really need his ball handling since Bron is balling at point center, maybe with AD back things will change, looking bleak tho


I hear you, but as I've said, we need to play out this hand. If Westbrook doesn't come around and find a way to mesh with Lebron (and Davis, when he returns), we're sunk. Starting Monk, Bradley, and Reaves as the backcourt might make us more competitive against teams like the Kings, but we'll never contend for a title like that. Even with Davis back, that lineup would be dependent on Lebron going all out every game. If Lebron breaks down, we likely wind up shipping a lottery pick to the Pelicans.

This season was always going to be a project. Other than the most optimistic of fans, I think everyone knew that. The project is not looking good at the moment, for sure, but the alternative is to strive for a higher level of mediocrity.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:54 am    Post subject:

Vogel is a weird dude...

5 min mark he takes out the players who were doing good and puts in two short and tired dudes

Russ 6.3 for Dwight 6.10
Bradley 6.2 for Ellington 6.5

Why put in Russ at the end of the game when we need him on the bench. (bleep) was tentative out there. You could see Westbrooks own players having to (bleep) think the game instead of play/win the game... "Do I pass it to Westbrook or not..."

LeBron passing to him for a wide open 3 was such a gross waste of a possession. They just can't give up on him eh?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:58 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The project is not looking good at the moment, for sure, but the alternative is to strive for a higher level of mediocrity.


The other alternative is to be a lot more forward thinking by acknowledging that this has closed the window on LeBron winning another title with the Lakers and get started on the rebuild now.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:02 am    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The project is not looking good at the moment, for sure, but the alternative is to strive for a higher level of mediocrity.


The other alternative is to be a lot more forward thinking by acknowledging that this has closed the window on LeBron winning another title with the Lakers and get started on the rebuild now.


Can't rebuild now, we just went all in, gotta play it out (at least until WB becomes a large expiring contract)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:05 am    Post subject:

They've married themselves to Westbrook. Until he is a Laker, they have undertsood keeping the paint open is a must. By keeping the paint open, you give WB a constant area to attack where he is at least a threat.

However what this has done it has forced many players out of position, or not to play at all and has come at the cost of defense.

We may be able to be more competitive with a DPOTY level AD at the 5. He can play the 5 out offense, but can rim protect and switch onto smalls. We can be far more competitive.

But in the end, if you've made an entire scheme built around a "star" that isn't consistent or a weapon anymore, it just won't work. We made this entire plan to have Westbrook be the 3rd superstar. Instead he's been more like an inconsistent 3rd option. He's been Dennis Schroeder like, but at least Dennis was giving effort on D, and Dennis wasn't making 43M, nor did we have to change the entire way we played for Dennis.

I don't know why we can't get Westbrook to buy into a Dennis Schroeder 3rd option role, but from day 1 we have treated him like a superstar, when we needed to treat him like the 3rd option he is. Why are we catering and relying so much on a player that will only come through in 3 out of 7 games in a playoff series? It's making a pact with .500 ball

I showed some numbers a few pages back. On WB from 2016-17 vs WB today. His Pick and Roll stats have dropped 20%. His isolation stats have also dropped 20%. I'm not even sure about his scoring at the rim figures, but for sure from the eye test it seems he goes a few games where he can make plays around the basket and the next few where he can't even make layups. He's just not a star of that magnitude anymore, but for some weird reason we've made Howard useless/unplayable, forced AD out of his natural position, and done so many weird things just to cater to a player that even at his best right now is not good enough to be an all-star in this league.

Now here's the thing. 2 years ago, we had some similar experiences with Rondo (but to a far lesser degree). For every good Rondo RS game you got about 3 what the hell is Rondo playing for. As a vet, Rondo just kept his head up and then when it came to the playoffs he was near all-star Rondo. Could the Lakers be hoping that Westbrook will just suddenly elevate his game at the right time? Maybe. But here's the issue I still have with this. Even if WB plays better, we're still building a situation where so many guys are out of position and that we can't be a strong phyiscal defensive team with the way we want to run our offense.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:10 am    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The project is not looking good at the moment, for sure, but the alternative is to strive for a higher level of mediocrity.


The other alternative is to be a lot more forward thinking by acknowledging that this has closed the window on LeBron winning another title with the Lakers and get started on the rebuild now.


I agree with you in principle, but it's hard to see how we could do that. Monk will opt out this summer. Nunn might opt out if he comes back and plays well. THT isn't showing any signs of making a leap this year. Reaves is the fan favorite flavor of the year, but he's already 23 and shouldn't be expected to have a high ceiling. Basically, the cupboard is pretty bare.

As of the summer of 2023, the only players we have under contract are Davis and THT (if he doesn't opt out, which would likely mean that he never did make a leap). It is hard to imagine how we could be more poorly positioned to start a rebuild. We would pretty much be required to move Lebron and/or Davis for young players. I know this sounds harsh, but the conclusion seems unavoidable.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:11 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
They've married themselves to Westbrook. Until he is a Laker, they have undertsood keeping the paint open is a must. By keeping the paint open, you give WB a constant area to attack where he is at least a threat.

However what this has done it has forced many players out of position, or not to play at all and has come at the cost of defense.

We may be able to be more competitive with a DPOTY level AD at the 5. He can play the 5 out offense, but can rim protect and switch onto smalls. We can be far more competitive.

But in the end, if you've made an entire scheme built around a "star" that isn't consistent or a weapon anymore, it just won't work. We made this entire plan to have Westbrook be the 3rd superstar. Instead he's been more like an inconsistent 3rd option. He's been Dennis Schroeder like, but at least Dennis was giving effort on D, and Dennis wasn't making 43M, nor did we have to change the entire way we played for Dennis.

I don't know why we can't get Westbrook to buy into a Dennis Schroeder 3rd option role, but from day 1 we have treated him like a superstar, when we needed to treat him like the 3rd option he is. Why are we catering and relying so much on a player that will only come through in 3 out of 7 games in a playoff series? It's making a pact with .500 ball

I showed some numbers a few pages back. On WB from 2016-17 vs WB today. His Pick and Roll stats have dropped 20%. His isolation stats have also dropped 20%. I'm not even sure about his scoring at the rim figures, but for sure from the eye test it seems he goes a few games where he can make plays around the basket and the next few where he can't even make layups. He's just not a star of that magnitude anymore, but for some weird reason we've made Howard useless/unplayable, forced AD out of his natural position, and done so many weird things just to cater to a player that even at his best right now is not good enough to be an all-star in this league.

Now here's the thing. 2 years ago, we had some similar experiences with Rondo (but to a far lesser degree). For every good Rondo RS game you got about 3 what the hell is Rondo playing for. As a vet, Rondo just kept his head up and then when it came to the playoffs he was near all-star Rondo. Could the Lakers be hoping that Westbrook will just suddenly elevate his game at the right time? Maybe. But here's the issue I still have with this. Even if WB plays better, we're still building a situation where so many guys are out of position and that we can't be a strong phyiscal defensive team with the way we want to run our offense.


Let Russ be Russ #500basketballteam
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:12 am    Post subject:

Maybe LeBron surprises us and asks to be traded?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:15 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:

Can't rebuild now, we just went all in


We can trade LeBron. That would save us from a rebuild worse than the one we went through last decade.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:17 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
We would pretty much be required to move Lebron and/or Davis for young players. I know this sounds harsh, but the conclusion seems unavoidable.


That's exactly what I'm getting at. The sooner we accept this, the better off this franchise will be. This team will not win a title.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:22 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
They've married themselves to Westbrook. Until he is a Laker, they have undertsood keeping the paint open is a must. By keeping the paint open, you give WB a constant area to attack where he is at least a threat.

However what this has done it has forced many players out of position, or not to play at all and has come at the cost of defense.

We may be able to be more competitive with a DPOTY level AD at the 5. He can play the 5 out offense, but can rim protect and switch onto smalls. We can be far more competitive.

But in the end, if you've made an entire scheme built around a "star" that isn't consistent or a weapon anymore, it just won't work. We made this entire plan to have Westbrook be the 3rd superstar. Instead he's been more like an inconsistent 3rd option. He's been Dennis Schroeder like, but at least Dennis was giving effort on D, and Dennis wasn't making 43M, nor did we have to change the entire way we played for Dennis.

I don't know why we can't get Westbrook to buy into a Dennis Schroeder 3rd option role, but from day 1 we have treated him like a superstar, when we needed to treat him like the 3rd option he is. Why are we catering and relying so much on a player that will only come through in 3 out of 7 games in a playoff series? It's making a pact with .500 ball

I showed some numbers a few pages back. On WB from 2016-17 vs WB today. His Pick and Roll stats have dropped 20%. His isolation stats have also dropped 20%. I'm not even sure about his scoring at the rim figures, but for sure from the eye test it seems he goes a few games where he can make plays around the basket and the next few where he can't even make layups. He's just not a star of that magnitude anymore, but for some weird reason we've made Howard useless/unplayable, forced AD out of his natural position, and done so many weird things just to cater to a player that even at his best right now is not good enough to be an all-star in this league.

Now here's the thing. 2 years ago, we had some similar experiences with Rondo (but to a far lesser degree). For every good Rondo RS game you got about 3 what the hell is Rondo playing for. As a vet, Rondo just kept his head up and then when it came to the playoffs he was near all-star Rondo. Could the Lakers be hoping that Westbrook will just suddenly elevate his game at the right time? Maybe. But here's the issue I still have with this. Even if WB plays better, we're still building a situation where so many guys are out of position and that we can't be a strong phyiscal defensive team with the way we want to run our offense.


Rondo had a history of elevating his game in the playoffs with boston for multiple seasons and with new orleans. Theres a reason he has a "playoff rondo" moniker.

Russ on the other hand self destructs in every playoffs hes been in; his game is easy to game plan against and he doesnt have the IQ to figure out playoff defenses.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:28 am    Post subject:

He's gonna go out like Iverson.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:06 am    Post subject:

I even just miss last year's team. Don't care about Trez, but I remember how toxic it was when DS was talked about. He is looking 100x better right about now. Not to mention utility guys like AC and KCP who knew their role to play. I took Kuz for granted with his off ball ability and improved defense. RW literally can not do ANYTHING out there when his man is sagging off daring him to shoot. He's not turning the ball over but he's just a non factor now. It's literally 6 vs 4 basketball out there.

If they are going to keep playing him, then at least let him have the ball in his hands and run the offense. That is the ONLY way he can contribute and play to any strengths he has. Personally I think they should let him rest up and observe a few games.

I hope he's just pouting, but being a bad basketball player plus being disgruntled makes for a very bad combination. Hell, undrafted Reaves is a better player and he's making >$40 million less.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:08 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Maybe LeBron surprises us and asks to be traded?


I know this is a joke, but honestly would that be so bad? The roster turnover we've had is ridiculous and we can safely assume it's by his request. I'm not suggesting we trade him, let me be clear.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:23 am    Post subject:

My god this team is just killing me right now and Russ is 80-90% of the problem. When the WB trade went down, I was critical and all my fears have become reality. Was there a chance the Russ fit could work and, however remote, is there a chance the fit works once AD is back? Sure, but the downside was always so catastrophic and now we're seeing that play out. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see ZERO chance of trading Russ. He was considered by most to be a negative asset before and, with his new failures on such a big stage, there have to be almost no talent evaluators that think otherwise now. And, even if we wanted to dump his contract, we do not have the assets to do it. So now we're stuck with the dude for this year and next and, so far, it looks like abject failure...and I think, if things continue as is, people need to pay the price.

Sure, we got the narrative from early on that it was AD and LBJ pushing for the WB trade. Maybe that's true, who knows. However, it was ROB that made the deal. Not only did he trade KCP, Trezz and Kuzma (three likely positive assets), but he THREW IN A FIRST ROUND PICK for Russ. Just absolutely awful. Perhaps not all of KCP/Trezz/Kuzma were positive assets, but you can't convince me that at least one of those players couldn't have been re-routed to a third team for an exchange of assets. Why didn't that happen? It seemed like a bad deal at the time and it looks way worse now. You can't blame AD/LBJ for that terrible deal and the fact that you threw in that FRP makes me think you saw the Russ deal as a positive as well. Obviously, we run the franchise as star-servicing, but at the end of the day, the buck stops with the GM and Rob made this deal.

Now to the coaching staff. They obviously didn't make this deal and I seriously doubt Vogel had much input into how and whether this trade went down. But, now that he's got Russ, the dude has not been handled well. First off, we spent a good chunk of the start of the season giving Russ like zero spacing. How could that ever possibly work? That forces him to be a shooter and, good lord, is that a bad idea. Now, we've gone to these small-ball lineups and I think the team has played much better. But, Russ's minutes really need to be managed better. Why in the ever-loving hell did he play THIRTY-SEVEN minutes last night against the Kings? What has he done to deserve that? And, more importantly, why is he playing crunch time? He can't shoot, he can't handle the ball efficiently and he doesn't play defense. Sure, he has some positives, but when you rely so heavily on a player like that, you're going to close out quarters like we did against the Kings last night. Just absolutely awful.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:48 am    Post subject:

The minute Russ said “If we win a championship great. If not, life goes on.” is when the heat really turned on.

Can’t be saying that on the Lakers and then play like (bleep).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:04 am    Post subject:

Mamba Mentality wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Maybe LeBron surprises us and asks to be traded?


I know this is a joke, but honestly would that be so bad? The roster turnover we've had is ridiculous and we can safely assume it's by his request. I'm not suggesting we trade him, let me be clear.


With a healthy AD and LBJ this year and next, we've got a puncher's chance if both play at MVP-level ... but it sure feels like acquiring WB's deal has crippled us for the next two seasons.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:10 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
The minute Russ said “If we win a championship great. If not, life goes on.” is when the heat really turned on.

Can’t be saying that on the Lakers and then play like (bleep).


Frightening that the highest paid player in the NBA doesn't even know how to speak properly.

Kobe would be so disappointed if he had to watch this guy in a Lakers Jersey..
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:11 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
The minute Russ said “If we win a championship great. If not, life goes on.” is when the heat really turned on.

Can’t be saying that on the Lakers and then play like (bleep).


Unacceptable. We only hang Championship banners here. I thought he was a Lakers fan growing up? For all that "tenacity" he plays with, he sure is unassertive about trying to win a ring. You would think he would be more hungry after seeing his buddy KD win a couple.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:39 am    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
We would pretty much be required to move Lebron and/or Davis for young players. I know this sounds harsh, but the conclusion seems unavoidable.


That's exactly what I'm getting at. The sooner we accept this, the better off this franchise will be. This team will not win a title.


That's not going to happen, because Jeanie will never accept getting rid of the stars. But let's set that aside for the moment. I wouldn't want to do something like this as long as Pelinka is the GM. We'd probably end up shipping Davis, THT, and the 2027 pick to Houston for John Wall.
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