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Mamba Mentality
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Joined: 04 May 2017
Posts: 3078
Location: The Left Coast
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 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | Westbrook was a dumb trade and has definitely hurt given what we gave to get him. But we're not THIS bad because of him. We're terrible because of everything around AD/LeBron/Russ. If that is your trio, then you better have a bunch of good-great defenders who can shoot at a high level all around them.. guys like: Bridges, Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder, Danny Green, PJ Tucker, Robert Covington, Dorian Finney-Smith, Maxi Kleber, Dillion Brooks, Otto Porter Jr, Alex Caruso, KCP, etc.
Those are all different level of players but they all can be relied on to defend well and shoot consistently well. Heck even Kuz could sorta fall into that category when he tries on D. But we gave up those types of guys to get Westrbook and then replaced them with small guards who don't defend and old wings who can't anymore. It's why Reaves and Johnson are so valuable to us right now.
Anyway, I'd try benching Russ and making him 6th man but I think throwing everything on Russ and Vogel is starting to get played out and nauseating. Now even if we were fully clicking, is there a chance that he costs us a playoff series, sure. But this trash is not all him. |
Yeah. And we're so bad that Reaves and Johnson really stand out on our team because of their defense. That's how glaring that need is. Those guys shouldn't be the ones standing out in the midst of the trio we have.
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Yeah. I was hoping we could get star WB, but it turns out WB only lost a good 20-30% from his star days. So what you got was a 15M-MLE level guy, for 43M. Aenas Hunter and some will say that with or without WB we're a .500-.600 level team. Perhaps this is true. But here's what's also true. You take 43M and you invest in instead on Caruso, KCP and Kuz, you still have 10M left over to move Trez/#1 pick for a better fitting big. |
As you probably recall, I was horrified at the idea that we might trade for Westbrook. Then it happened. But that's spilled milk right now. Caruso, KCP, Kuzma, Harrell, and Schroder (and the other lesser pieces) are not coming back. The only way this team contends is if we find a way to get value out of Westbrook. If Nunn could get healthy and take over at PG, that would be nice, but we were already counting on him being a boost. There is just not enough in the cupboard to make this work unless we get value out of Westbrook. In fact, we are one Lebron muscle pull away from sending a lottery pick to the Pelicans. |
Yeah, I respect this take, AH. You're probably right.
Doesn't make me wish WB leaves via trade any less. There's about a 5% chance that AD comes back and suddenly the big 3 "get it". 95% chance it's the same ole same ole. |
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3baller
Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Oct 2017
Posts: 992
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | Westbrook was a dumb trade and has definitely hurt given what we gave to get him. But we're not THIS bad because of him. We're terrible because of everything around AD/LeBron/Russ. If that is your trio, then you better have a bunch of good-great defenders who can shoot at a high level all around them.. guys like: Bridges, Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder, Danny Green, PJ Tucker, Robert Covington, Dorian Finney-Smith, Maxi Kleber, Dillion Brooks, Otto Porter Jr, Alex Caruso, KCP, etc.
Those are all different level of players but they all can be relied on to defend well and shoot consistently well. Heck even Kuz could sorta fall into that category when he tries on D. But we gave up those types of guys to get Westrbook and then replaced them with small guards who don't defend and old wings who can't anymore. It's why Reaves and Johnson are so valuable to us right now.
Anyway, I'd try benching Russ and making him 6th man but I think throwing everything on Russ and Vogel is starting to get played out and nauseating. Now even if we were fully clicking, is there a chance that he costs us a playoff series, sure. But this trash is not all him. |
Yes we have other issues outside of Westbrook as a player but most of those issues also came along with Westbrook because of what we lost in the trade and how much of our cap space he eats up
We lost multiple 3&D guys already familiar with Vogel's system and those types of guys don't grow on trees and you certainly can't find replacements available for vet mins. Otto Porter had his mind set on the warriors so there's no way we could have gotten him for the minimum. Other free agents like Harkless, Jeff Green, Torrey Craig, Bruce Brown and even Nwaba all signed for more than the minimum.
Pelinka, Bron and AD must have known that we'd also likely lose AC because of the trade. There's no way Pelinka wasn't aware how much luxury tax the ownership was willing to pay before he pulled the trigger on the trade.
The one thing that we could have done something about after the trade was hiring a competent offensive coordinator. Fizdale ain't it. I don't know why we never bothered getting one to complement Vogel.
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youcantguardme
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Joined: 10 Jan 2011
Posts: 1117
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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I think Russ takes a bit too much blame from most fans. Last year should have shown us that what the Lakers had wasn't going to work. That doesn't mean that this works. Russ does seem to be a bit too emotional for the big city, just like in NY, you're going to get ripped by the press because they feel the need to create a story. WAY too much is being made of being benched. He was having an off night and having a the hotter hand in the game makes sense. The point that he takes up too much salary space is bogus too. LeBron and AD are taking up a lot too. This whole thing is a bit like the 2003 Lakers and the plans going forward, there wasn't enough money to get the right mix and at the time the result was to let Shaq go.
If there is any real Russ problem it is finding a way to motivate the guy to play to his strengths. The 5 TO a game Russ is better than the 1 TO a game. he need to play his game. |
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lakersfever714
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Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 11846
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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We have all these vet min players because we dedicated almost 1/3 of our cap into WB. What do you expect from vet min players? Westbrook is largely responsible for our underachievement because he's not playing up to his salary and we can't sign/trade for quality players because of his contract.
You're asking our vet min players to make up for the lack of production from a $44M player which they haven't been able to do. |
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Lakeshow23_
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Joined: 02 May 2021
Posts: 667
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Make no mistake: the team is this bad because of Russ. The big three conception is predicated on three superstar caliber players that are able to compensate for the flaws of their teammates. It's a high risk/high reward model that has only achieved success with teams that posessed three bonafide max-level players. Evidently, Westbrook is not a superstar.. He's hardly a top 50-75 player at this point of his career. Lebron and AD come with their own concerns but an average/below-average starter occupying a max-slot is the biggest reason for this mess. All of the roster-building issues are a result of the Westbrook trade. |
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2019
Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 10812
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| 3baller wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | Westbrook was a dumb trade and has definitely hurt given what we gave to get him. But we're not THIS bad because of him. We're terrible because of everything around AD/LeBron/Russ. If that is your trio, then you better have a bunch of good-great defenders who can shoot at a high level all around them.. guys like: Bridges, Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder, Danny Green, PJ Tucker, Robert Covington, Dorian Finney-Smith, Maxi Kleber, Dillion Brooks, Otto Porter Jr, Alex Caruso, KCP, etc.
Those are all different level of players but they all can be relied on to defend well and shoot consistently well. Heck even Kuz could sorta fall into that category when he tries on D. But we gave up those types of guys to get Westrbook and then replaced them with small guards who don't defend and old wings who can't anymore. It's why Reaves and Johnson are so valuable to us right now.
Anyway, I'd try benching Russ and making him 6th man but I think throwing everything on Russ and Vogel is starting to get played out and nauseating. Now even if we were fully clicking, is there a chance that he costs us a playoff series, sure. But this trash is not all him. |
Yes we have other issues outside of Westbrook as a player but most of those issues also came along with Westbrook because of what we lost in the trade and how much of our cap space he eats up
We lost multiple 3&D guys already familiar with Vogel's system and those types of guys don't grow on trees and you certainly can't find replacements available for vet mins. Otto Porter had his mind set on the warriors so there's no way we could have gotten him for the minimum. Other free agents like Harkless, Jeff Green, Torrey Craig, Bruce Brown and even Nwaba all signed for more than the minimum.
Pelinka, Bron and AD must have known that we'd also likely lose AC because of the trade. There's no way Pelinka wasn't aware how much luxury tax the ownership was willing to pay before he pulled the trigger on the trade.
The one thing that we could have done something about after the trade was hiring a competent offensive coordinator. Fizdale ain't it. I don't know why we never bothered getting one to complement Vogel. |
100% agree on everything. But that's not Russ' fault. It was Rob who overpaid for him. It was Rob/Jeanie/Rambis who determined AC was not worth the 2/$20M he said he'd take from LA. It was Rob who decided to target name guys and familiar faces instead of the type of guys you mentioned... like I said, Rob wanted to win the arms race against Sean Marks. He probably did but once the arms were delivered, he realized they were all rusted and jamming. |
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2019
Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 10812
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | We have all these vet min players because we dedicated almost 1/3 of our cap into WB. What do you expect from vet min players? Westbrook is largely responsible for our underachievement because he's not playing up to his salary and we can't sign/trade for quality players because of his contract.
You're asking our vet min players to make up for the lack of production from a $44M player which they haven't been able to do. |
Yes but no. Since when did Melo, Bradley, Wayne Ellington, Dwight Howard, Trevor Ariza, and Deandre Jordan become expected to make up the production of a 3rd option?
These are all end of their careers ring chasers who maybe a couple could end up with 15-20mpg. They could have never come in and kept up with this new younger/faster game that is played today. All nice to have in spot mins but as major roles? That was unrealistic.
Russ is underperforming to a certain degree but if you look at his career numbers, he's pretty much in line with them. He never was efficient but now with his more limited atletic ability, he's struggling with that even more. But this is who Russ has always been and it's why the people who opposed this trade when it happened did. Rob, and others, missed it. |
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Brawn13
Star Player
Joined: 30 Jan 2019
Posts: 3745
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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I’m frustrated with Russ but more so that Lebron and AD wanted him. We traded for Russ, and we got what we traded for.
Can’t trade for a bad player then be shocked that he’s still bad |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| av3773 wrote: | So you don't think Johnson has been a capable role player based on what metric or what subjective criteria? How about Monk horrible role player? How about AR? The answer is no they aren't and yes in the case of SJ he is a very good role player defensively for us.
I guess you are trying to be glib on your all star comment, ooooook....if you don't agree we have three all star caliber players 2 of which have played pretty much at all times I can't help you. |
Wait, do you think that Westbrook is an all-star caliber player?
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laker50
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Joined: 07 Mar 2014
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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The problem is Westbrook is all about Westbrook.
He never was a team player.
Has he been a part of any championship? |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16752
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| laker50 wrote: | The problem is Westbrook is all about Westbrook.
He never was a team player.
Has he been a part of any championship? |
this is silly. KD needed to jump to a championship team to win his
Harden hasn't won one
Beal hasn't won one
PG hasn't won one
yet all had career or close to career years next to him.
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dino
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 4120
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| hypothetically, if westbrook suffers a season ending injury, what kind of relief do the lakers get? |
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2019
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Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 10812
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| dino wrote: | | hypothetically, if westbrook suffers a season ending injury, what kind of relief do the lakers get? |
Jesus. |
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Halflife
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Inspector Gadget
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Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46684
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| That post better be sarcastic or that is flat out unacceptable.. you know better then that Dino |
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Halflife
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Mamba Mentality
Star Player
Joined: 04 May 2017
Posts: 3078
Location: The Left Coast
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | That post better be sarcastic or that is flat out unacceptable.. you know better then that Dino |
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When IG gotta call you out.
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LakersMD
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Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 8014
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| dino wrote: | | hypothetically, if westbrook suffers a season ending injury, what kind of relief do the lakers get? |
Unless the NBA made a change based on COVID, the Lakers wouldn’t even be able to apply for a disabled player exception since it is already after Jan 15, according to Larry Coon’s FAQ. |
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dino
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 4120
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersMD wrote: | | dino wrote: | | hypothetically, if westbrook suffers a season ending injury, what kind of relief do the lakers get? |
Unless the NBA made a change based on COVID, the Lakers wouldn’t even be able to apply for a disabled player exception since it is already after Jan 15, according to Larry Coon’s FAQ. |
thanks mate...
I don't get the pearl clutching, am asking out of genuine curiosity...ain't wishing ill on anyone... |
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vasashi17+
Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2019
Posts: 5613
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | | dino wrote: | | hypothetically, if westbrook suffers a season ending injury, what kind of relief do the lakers get? |
Jesus. |
Haha…yep we would need Jesus to step into a Laker uni to fit our new holy trinity with Bron/AD…now that would be a great kruci-fix for this season.
Seriously tho, a DPE is the only form of relief a team could use for a season ending injury. That amount would typically be 50% of the injured player's annual, but since Russ makes so much, his DPE would only be the fMLE amount + 100k (ie 9.6m).
Unfortunately J. Shuttlesworth ain’t walking through that door, cause the last day to file for a DPE was Jan 15.
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Inspector Gadget
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Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46684
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Very solid game by Westbrook tonight |
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mad55557777
Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 23272
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | Very solid game by Westbrook tonight |
If he plays like this every game, I won’t ever complain again (it is not even a great game) |
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Lakersfan1211
Star Player
Joined: 28 Mar 2021
Posts: 5790
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Attacking more and less shooting, much better. |
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Inspector Gadget
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Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46684
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| He should always be attacking considering that’s the only way he can get his offense going, he shouldn’t be taking long jumpers while killing his rhythm |
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