"We Gave Away A Decade Worth of Talent for AD"
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MJST
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:27 pm    Post subject:

If the Lakers had kept all their young talent.

And still traded for AD down the line. They'd have kept a ton more assets and been in a better position than they are currently.

Period, point blank.

If you have Russell, Lonzo, Clarkson, Nance Jr, Ingram, Randle, Hart, Kuzma + Picks

As pieces to trade. You don't wind up gutting your team for AD and you have things left over.

Heck, even if we just had Lonzo, Russell, Ingram, Randle + picks, we wouldn't have gut our team for AD and would have had more left over at the end of it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:32 pm    Post subject:

If not because our front office mess up with the lineup, we would still be a playoff team. Our current situation is not purely due to one trade
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:36 pm    Post subject:

lakersfan8 wrote:
If not because our front office mess up with the lineup, we would still be a playoff team. Our current situation is not purely due to one trade
Yeah. Lack of foresight. Bad asset management. Questionable drafting and eyes big names passed their prime.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:42 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
If the Lakers had kept all their young talent.

And still traded for AD down the line. They'd have kept a ton more assets and been in a better position than they are currently.

Period, point blank.

If you have Russell, Lonzo, Clarkson, Nance Jr, Ingram, Randle, Hart, Kuzma + Picks

As pieces to trade. You don't wind up gutting your team for AD and you have things left over.

Heck, even if we just had Lonzo, Russell, Ingram, Randle + picks, we wouldn't have gut our team for AD and would have had more left over at the end of it.

So no lebron? Some of the pieces were moved for salary cap purposes like JC/Dlo/Nance
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:56 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
What was our cap situation the year after the AD trade for those wishing we waited for AD to become a FA?

Did we have enough cap space or did we need to send players away without returning salary? By attaching picks? I don't recall.

We won a title year 1. God forbid year 2 ended the same way with injuries and Lakers end up with 0 rings after 2 years instead of 1 in 3 years.

I think we might had to let BI go due to his cap hold and the dead corpse of Deng.
You certainly can’t assume AD stay healthy. I take history over “could’ve”, “would’ve”
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:13 am    Post subject:

2019 -- #4 -- Pelicans, Anthony Davis Trade
2020 -- #28 -- Thunder, Dennis Schroder Trade
2021 -- #22 -- Wizards, Russell Westbrook Trade
2022 -- #8 -- Pelicans, Anthony Davis Trade

2023 -- Swap -- Pelicans, Anthony Davis Trade
2024 -- No pick -- Pelicans, Anthony Davis Trade
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:39 am    Post subject:

2023 Lakers will get a pick, either theirs or the Pels.
2024 or 2025, Lakers get one of the picks.
2026-onwards all Lakers picks.

So effectively, we will have 1 season with no 1st round picks in the next 10 years (as of now).

What is egregious to me is how we wasted a 1st on Dennis and let him walk.

Then we SENT a pick to take on Russ, and he is not going to be part of the Lakers future. And if they send another pick to dump him, that's 3 1st rounders used for nothing at the PG spot.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:42 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
What is egregious to me is how we wasted a 1st on Dennis and let him walk.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:45 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
What is egregious to me is how we wasted a 1st on Dennis and let him walk.


Ramon Sessions 2.0


One of my first posts re: Dennis was a concern that he was an upcoming free agent, and that as part of the trade, they didn't extend him to stay. Just throwing away 2 1st rounders for Dennis/Russ (both likely to leave) is just malpractice.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:29 am    Post subject:

Hanging from Rafters wrote:
The fact that We gave up a generations’ worth of talent for AD and a championship imo is not up for logical debate…of course we did. The question is…was it worth it?

For me, 1 championship and a few years of competing for another would have made it worth it…but 1 championship and several embarrassing losing years make it NOT WORTH IT.


I've been raising this issue for a long time. It really all depends on how well we bounce back. If we have a couple more years like this one, then a lot of people are going to feel this way. If we bounce back, then a couple poor seasons will seem like a reasonable price to most people.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:47 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Hanging from Rafters wrote:
The fact that We gave up a generations’ worth of talent for AD and a championship imo is not up for logical debate…of course we did. The question is…was it worth it?

For me, 1 championship and a few years of competing for another would have made it worth it…but 1 championship and several embarrassing losing years make it NOT WORTH IT.


I've been raising this issue for a long time. It really all depends on how well we bounce back. If we have a couple more years like this one, then a lot of people are going to feel this way. If we bounce back, then a couple poor seasons will seem like a reasonable price to most people.


This is a fair take. We just don't know how 2023-30 will go. Could be a decade of misery, or they hit the jackpot in FA in 2023-25.

But, bear in mind, Celtics have not been in the Finals since 2008. That's 14 years. So it's taken them a while to get to the same place that the Lakers got in 10 years after the last Finals. They've done it through drafting, but the major difference is with their top 10 picks, hit home runs with Tatum/Brown.

Arguably, only BI is at that level and Lonzo/DLO were much bigger whiffs compared to Tatum/Brown. Jules was a decent pick but he seems to have fallen off too. So with #7, #2, #2, #2, only one consistent all-star level player in BI, which we used to get AD, who was a perennial all NBA player at that time, and then the championship.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:08 am    Post subject:

Let's look at it this way:

2014 draft:

Boston (#6): Smart
Lakers (#7): Jules

While Jules had some decent years, I think Smart is the better player as he is a 2 way guy now and a DPOY.

2015 draft:
Lakers (#2): DLO

2016 draft:
Lakers (#2): BI
Boston (#3): Brown

I think this is a wash talent-wise. BI is probably a more complete offensive player, but if you take into account both sides of the ball, Brown is more of a 2 way player (and more durable than BI health-wise)

2017 draft:
Lakers (#2): Lonzo
Boston (#3): Tatum

Not even close. Boston gets a 1st team all NBA player while Lonzo, is again, hurt.

2018 draft:
Lakers (#25): Wagner
Boston (#27): Williams

Williams was 2nd team all Defense. A clear win for Boston.

So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players. But, we parlayed BI/Zo (and other parts) into AD, who at the time of the trade had made all NBA 1st team (2015, 2017, and 2018). So even though we had lackluster drafting (only exception was BI), we bridged that gap with the only strategy that the Lakers seem to know: trades/FA. We picked up 1st team all NBA LBJ and traded for AD.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:28 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
This is a fair take. We just don't know how 2023-30 will go. Could be a decade of misery, or they hit the jackpot in FA in 2023-25.

But, bear in mind, Celtics have not been in the Finals since 2008. That's 14 years. So it's taken them a while to get to the same place that the Lakers got in 10 years after the last Finals. They've done it through drafting, but the major difference is with their top 10 picks, hit home runs with Tatum/Brown.

Arguably, only BI is at that level and Lonzo/DLO were much bigger whiffs compared to Tatum/Brown. Jules was a decent pick but he seems to have fallen off too. So with #7, #2, #2, #2, only one consistent all-star level player in BI, which we used to get AD, who was a perennial all NBA player at that time, and then the championship.


The Celtics were in the Finals in 2010, obviously. Anyway, making the Finals is not the only measure of success. As Laker fans, we expect titles. That's fair. But there is also value in being a sustainable contender. Furthermore, if you want to attract genuine top level free agents, you need to have a base of assets to make the team an attractive destination. I'm not impressed by the rescue fantasy scenarios that we hear from some people -- that we'll get a top level free agent to come save us. I doubt you're impressed by that, either.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:31 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players.


That's true. I think about this when I hear people talk about our genius scouting department. For sure, we've had successes later in the draft, like Kuzma, and with an undrafted player in the case of Reaves. But we've just been average at the higher end of the draft. No real home runs given our draft position, no real strikeouts, either.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:31 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Let's look at it this way:

2014 draft:

Boston (#6): Smart
Lakers (#7): Jules

While Jules had some decent years, I think Smart is the better player as he is a 2 way guy now and a DPOY.

2015 draft:
Lakers (#2): DLO

2016 draft:
Lakers (#2): BI
Boston (#3): Brown

I think this is a wash talent-wise. BI is probably a more complete offensive player, but if you take into account both sides of the ball, Brown is more of a 2 way player (and more durable than BI health-wise)

2017 draft:
Lakers (#2): Lonzo
Boston (#3): Tatum

Not even close. Boston gets a 1st team all NBA player while Lonzo, is again, hurt.

2018 draft:
Lakers (#25): Wagner
Boston (#27): Williams

Williams was 2nd team all Defense. A clear win for Boston.

So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players. But, we parlayed BI/Zo (and other parts) into AD, who at the time of the trade had made all NBA 1st team (2015, 2017, and 2018). So even though we had lackluster drafting (only exception was BI), we bridged that gap with the only strategy that the Lakers seem to know: trades/FA. We picked up 1st team all NBA LBJ and traded for AD.

While what you said are true, I think you need to include all of the prospect we had and that include players like Zubac, Kuzma, Larry Nance and Clarkson. There’s also the #4 draft pick which could be Garland.
PG: Garland, Clarkson
SG: Ball, Russell, Caruso
SF: Ingram, Kuzma
PF: Randle, Nance
C:Zubac. Wagner

I can see a high defensive potential of Ball, Caruso, Ingram, Kuzma and Nance.

With few years of MLE signing plus our own draft pick rookie, the lineup could be in a deep playoff run. In addition, we could trade some young players for valuable veterans like Horford etc. So I wouldn’t rule out our possibility of winning a championship if we went another route. It depends on how the front office build the roster.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:42 am    Post subject:

This front office has shown poor competence in terms of asset managing, free agent signings and lack of analytics (why sign so many old players and small guards in an era where versatile swing men/big man are dominating the game?)

We got lucky we’re based in Los Angeles and Lebron dragged us to a title. This franchise probably doesn’t make the playoffs the last couple years of Lebron doesn’t decide to come here for the weather.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:48 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players.


That's true. I think about this when I hear people talk about our genius scouting department. For sure, we've had successes later in the draft, like Kuzma, and with an undrafted player in the case of Reaves. But we've just been average at the higher end of the draft. No real home runs given our draft position, no real strikeouts, either.

I blame it on Magic really. Forget all the other draft picks, if we drafted Tatum instead of Ball, all the narratives would be different.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:22 am    Post subject:

BynumForThree wrote:
This front office has shown poor competence in terms of asset managing, free agent signings and lack of analytics (why sign so many old players and small guards in an era where versatile swing men/big man are dominating the game?)

We got lucky we’re based in Los Angeles and Lebron dragged us to a title. This franchise probably doesn’t make the playoffs the last couple years of Lebron doesn’t decide to come here for the weather.


This is embarrassingly true. I haven’t seen the Lakers have a vision for what they put on the floor since Jerry West left.

The Pau/Bynum/Odom/Kobe lakers wasn’t really a vision. The parts didn’t really fit all that good but prime Kobe and Pau were amazing. Much like LeBron and AD were amazing in 2020. The 2020 team also just fell ass backwards into chemistry.

It’s really interesting.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:37 am    Post subject:

lakersfan8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Let's look at it this way:

2014 draft:

Boston (#6): Smart
Lakers (#7): Jules

While Jules had some decent years, I think Smart is the better player as he is a 2 way guy now and a DPOY.

2015 draft:
Lakers (#2): DLO

2016 draft:
Lakers (#2): BI
Boston (#3): Brown

I think this is a wash talent-wise. BI is probably a more complete offensive player, but if you take into account both sides of the ball, Brown is more of a 2 way player (and more durable than BI health-wise)

2017 draft:
Lakers (#2): Lonzo
Boston (#3): Tatum

Not even close. Boston gets a 1st team all NBA player while Lonzo, is again, hurt.

2018 draft:
Lakers (#25): Wagner
Boston (#27): Williams

Williams was 2nd team all Defense. A clear win for Boston.

So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players. But, we parlayed BI/Zo (and other parts) into AD, who at the time of the trade had made all NBA 1st team (2015, 2017, and 2018). So even though we had lackluster drafting (only exception was BI), we bridged that gap with the only strategy that the Lakers seem to know: trades/FA. We picked up 1st team all NBA LBJ and traded for AD.

While what you said are true, I think you need to include all of the prospect we had and that include players like Zubac, Kuzma, Larry Nance and Clarkson. There’s also the #4 draft pick which could be Garland.
PG: Garland, Clarkson
SG: Ball, Russell, Caruso
SF: Ingram, Kuzma
PF: Randle, Nance
C:Zubac. Wagner

I can see a high defensive potential of Ball, Caruso, Ingram, Kuzma and Nance.

With few years of MLE signing plus our own draft pick rookie, the lineup could be in a deep playoff run. In addition, we could trade some young players for valuable veterans like Horford etc. So I wouldn’t rule out our possibility of winning a championship if we went another route. It depends on how the front office build the roster.


There is no way a team keeps literally all of its draft picks at FMV. And they won't develop the same way they did as well. Just unrealistic at all IMO.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:38 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players.


That's true. I think about this when I hear people talk about our genius scouting department. For sure, we've had successes later in the draft, like Kuzma, and with an undrafted player in the case of Reaves. But we've just been average at the higher end of the draft. No real home runs given our draft position, no real strikeouts, either.


I think we draft so well with late 1sts, 2nd rounders, and undrafted.

But I think the problem is that Jeanie, Magic, etc. get too involved with the high level picks. Like that Lonzo one is ALL Jeanie/Magic there. Wonder what our scouting staff recommended on that one.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:41 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This is a fair take. We just don't know how 2023-30 will go. Could be a decade of misery, or they hit the jackpot in FA in 2023-25.

But, bear in mind, Celtics have not been in the Finals since 2008. That's 14 years. So it's taken them a while to get to the same place that the Lakers got in 10 years after the last Finals. They've done it through drafting, but the major difference is with their top 10 picks, hit home runs with Tatum/Brown.

Arguably, only BI is at that level and Lonzo/DLO were much bigger whiffs compared to Tatum/Brown. Jules was a decent pick but he seems to have fallen off too. So with #7, #2, #2, #2, only one consistent all-star level player in BI, which we used to get AD, who was a perennial all NBA player at that time, and then the championship.


The Celtics were in the Finals in 2010, obviously. Anyway, making the Finals is not the only measure of success. As Laker fans, we expect titles. That's fair. But there is also value in being a sustainable contender. Furthermore, if you want to attract genuine top level free agents, you need to have a base of assets to make the team an attractive destination. I'm not impressed by the rescue fantasy scenarios that we hear from some people -- that we'll get a top level free agent to come save us. I doubt you're impressed by that, either.


You know me. I think the 2020 championship is legit and awesome. But, I think it also papered over some real serious concerns with our FO/Jeanie too. Validated how careless they are with 1st rounders (Dennis and then letting him leave, using it on Russ), and not re-signing Caruso.

They will for sure go with clearing the decks in 2024, and hoping 1-2, maybe 3 (if AD is gone) max FAs will come. They don't have the patience, the stomach, and vision to do otherwise. People think that the YUTES experience is something that Jeanie will do again. No way in hell that I think she goes 5-6 years without playoffs (let alone championship(s) again.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:41 am    Post subject:

kfkilla wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
This front office has shown poor competence in terms of asset managing, free agent signings and lack of analytics (why sign so many old players and small guards in an era where versatile swing men/big man are dominating the game?)

We got lucky we’re based in Los Angeles and Lebron dragged us to a title. This franchise probably doesn’t make the playoffs the last couple years of Lebron doesn’t decide to come here for the weather.


This is embarrassingly true. I haven’t seen the Lakers have a vision for what they put on the floor since Jerry West left.

The Pau/Bynum/Odom/Kobe lakers wasn’t really a vision. The parts didn’t really fit all that good but prime Kobe and Pau were amazing. Much like LeBron and AD were amazing in 2020. The 2020 team also just fell ass backwards into chemistry.

It’s really interesting.

I think the Twin tower with Kobe and 3&D is a good roster construction. In fact, I think the Howard and Nash addition would fit well together with specific playing style if not because of the injury and personnel issues. In contrast to the addition of Westbrook which unless someone changes the playing style, they just don’t fit
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:58 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This is a fair take. We just don't know how 2023-30 will go. Could be a decade of misery, or they hit the jackpot in FA in 2023-25.

But, bear in mind, Celtics have not been in the Finals since 2008. That's 14 years. So it's taken them a while to get to the same place that the Lakers got in 10 years after the last Finals. They've done it through drafting, but the major difference is with their top 10 picks, hit home runs with Tatum/Brown.

Arguably, only BI is at that level and Lonzo/DLO were much bigger whiffs compared to Tatum/Brown. Jules was a decent pick but he seems to have fallen off too. So with #7, #2, #2, #2, only one consistent all-star level player in BI, which we used to get AD, who was a perennial all NBA player at that time, and then the championship.


The Celtics were in the Finals in 2010, obviously. Anyway, making the Finals is not the only measure of success. As Laker fans, we expect titles. That's fair. But there is also value in being a sustainable contender. Furthermore, if you want to attract genuine top level free agents, you need to have a base of assets to make the team an attractive destination. I'm not impressed by the rescue fantasy scenarios that we hear from some people -- that we'll get a top level free agent to come save us. I doubt you're impressed by that, either.


You know me. I think the 2020 championship is legit and awesome. But, I think it also papered over some real serious concerns with our FO/Jeanie too. Validated how careless they are with 1st rounders (Dennis and then letting him leave, using it on Russ), and not re-signing Caruso.

They will for sure go with clearing the decks in 2024, and hoping 1-2, maybe 3 (if AD is gone) max FAs will come. They don't have the patience, the stomach, and vision to do otherwise. People think that the YUTES experience is something that Jeanie will do again. No way in hell that I think she goes 5-6 years without playoffs (let alone championship(s) again.


She brings in one of the best at the time but still misses the playoffs half the time he is here. She can want all she wants but her abilities don’t reflect her desires.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:28 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
lakersfan8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Let's look at it this way:

2014 draft:

Boston (#6): Smart
Lakers (#7): Jules

While Jules had some decent years, I think Smart is the better player as he is a 2 way guy now and a DPOY.

2015 draft:
Lakers (#2): DLO

2016 draft:
Lakers (#2): BI
Boston (#3): Brown

I think this is a wash talent-wise. BI is probably a more complete offensive player, but if you take into account both sides of the ball, Brown is more of a 2 way player (and more durable than BI health-wise)

2017 draft:
Lakers (#2): Lonzo
Boston (#3): Tatum

Not even close. Boston gets a 1st team all NBA player while Lonzo, is again, hurt.

2018 draft:
Lakers (#25): Wagner
Boston (#27): Williams

Williams was 2nd team all Defense. A clear win for Boston.

So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players. But, we parlayed BI/Zo (and other parts) into AD, who at the time of the trade had made all NBA 1st team (2015, 2017, and 2018). So even though we had lackluster drafting (only exception was BI), we bridged that gap with the only strategy that the Lakers seem to know: trades/FA. We picked up 1st team all NBA LBJ and traded for AD.

While what you said are true, I think you need to include all of the prospect we had and that include players like Zubac, Kuzma, Larry Nance and Clarkson. There’s also the #4 draft pick which could be Garland.
PG: Garland, Clarkson
SG: Ball, Russell, Caruso
SF: Ingram, Kuzma
PF: Randle, Nance
C:Zubac. Wagner

I can see a high defensive potential of Ball, Caruso, Ingram, Kuzma and Nance.

With few years of MLE signing plus our own draft pick rookie, the lineup could be in a deep playoff run. In addition, we could trade some young players for valuable veterans like Horford etc. So I wouldn’t rule out our possibility of winning a championship if we went another route. It depends on how the front office build the roster.


There is no way a team keeps literally all of its draft picks at FMV. And they won't develop the same way they did as well. Just unrealistic at all IMO.

Like I said they can always trade for valuable veterans role players like how the Warriors got Iguodala and Celtics got Horford.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:47 am    Post subject:

We've been pretty competent when it comes to draft

With a iatus,during Magic time at the helm

He's the one who screwed things,with Lonzo instead of Tatum in '17 and Wagner instead of,say,a Robert Williams in 2018

Guess his rim protection could have been really useful
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