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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:42 am    Post subject:

^That's where I'm lost. I don't think Avdija or Bonga had a "dominant skill."
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:42 am    Post subject:

Every time I try to talk myself into Ziaire Williams I just look up Cam Reddish's basketball reference page.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:08 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^That's where I'm lost. I don't think Avdija or Bonga had a "dominant skill."


Bonga's vision, passing and ability to finish in the paint with either hand were plus imo and combined with his height I felt he could play a big PG which is a plus in itself. He flashed in the Gleague but was never given the opportunity to assume a pg role.

Avdija's physical profile along with passing skills were a plus if he played a point forward role.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:24 pm    Post subject:

That's where I'm lost. I think of a "dominant skill" as something that is already NBA level and didn't need development. I don't think either had NBA ready skills from the jump.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Every time I try to talk myself into Ziaire Williams I just look up Cam Reddish's basketball reference page.


Same. It's odd that he's arguably the most "BI" of the group in terms of development path, but doesn't have the extra unique physical tools, but a higher IQ/hoop instinct in regards to shot selection and defense, even if the pull up jumper %/finishing % isn't there yet.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:21 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
That's where I'm lost. I think of a "dominant skill" as something that is already NBA level and didn't need development. I don't think either had NBA ready skills from the jump.


I always believed high level passing and vision translates from level to level as exhibited by LaMelo, Lonzo, Trae, Lebron, Rondo, Luka, Rubio and I'll add Cade and Giddey to the list. From my perspective this is a dominant skill that I highly value. Still believe Bonga possesses this ability while less sure on Avdija.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:28 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
That's where I'm lost. I think of a "dominant skill" as something that is already NBA level and didn't need development. I don't think either had NBA ready skills from the jump.


I always believed high level passing and vision translates from level to level as exhibited by LaMelo, Lonzo, Trae, Lebron, Rondo, Luka, Rubio and I'll add Cade and Giddey to the list. From my perspective this is a dominant skill that I highly value. Still believe Bonga possesses this ability while less sure on Avdija.


Right, but there's quite a gap between the passing levels of Zo, Melo, Trae, Rondo, Rubio, Cade, and Giddey vs Deni. It's a wide gap. Their levels, I would consider dominant and directly transferable to the NBA level. Bonga and Deni? No.

Hence, quite the divide just from the rookie year in terms of passing.

Passing as a high level skill is a transferable NBA skill, yes. But to me, there's a difference between being adequate, good, and being an offensive engine like the aforementioned players.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:29 pm    Post subject:

It absolutely sucks that Jaden Springer is being shafted by scouts for being good at basketball. NBA front offices are going to Jrue Holiday Springer and come to regret it.

But if he's there for the Lakers at #22-25, he's an absolute must take, and I won't be complaining. I know he gets dinged for not being a great athlete, but just watch his footwork and body control in the air - the dude is a legit functional athlete even if he's not going to rack up highlight dunks.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:36 pm    Post subject:

Understand your hesitancy since we have not seen them perform in a playmaker role in NBA games but I am fairly convinced if given the opportunity Bonga would not only succeed but excel.

He was the PG for the German Jr. national team and I believe also in his brief play with the Sr. team. I probably watched the majority of his videos that existed in the 2018 draft and I saw the same special passing vision and skills that I got watching LaMelo's vids. I would never put him at LaMelo's level knowing how Melo has performed in his first NBA season but Bonga looked special. Also similar to one of Melo's strength is his ability to finish in the paint with either hand and the soft touch they possess.

I still have reservations about Deni but when you combine his ball handling/vision/passing as a point forward and being able to run the offense thru him I deemed lottery worthy for me. He is far from being Scottie Pippen but the role would be similar.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:40 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
It absolutely sucks that Jaden Springer is being shafted by scouts for being good at basketball. NBA front offices are going to Jrue Holiday Springer and come to regret it.

But if he's there for the Lakers at #22-25, he's an absolute must take, and I won't be complaining. I know he gets dinged for not being a great athlete, but just watch his footwork and body control in the air - the dude is a legit functional athlete even if he's not going to rack up highlight dunks.


Still don't believe he will make it to the Lakers pick and could be just some scout/team spreading a false narrative hoping he drops.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:43 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
That's where I'm lost. I think of a "dominant skill" as something that is already NBA level and didn't need development. I don't think either had NBA ready skills from the jump.


I always believed high level passing and vision translates from level to level as exhibited by LaMelo, Lonzo, Trae, Lebron, Rondo, Luka, Rubio and I'll add Cade and Giddey to the list. From my perspective this is a dominant skill that I highly value. Still believe Bonga possesses this ability while less sure on Avdija.


Right, but there's quite a gap between the passing levels of Zo, Melo, Trae, Rondo, Rubio, Cade, and Giddey vs Deni. It's a wide gap. Their levels, I would consider dominant and directly transferable to the NBA level. Bonga and Deni? No.

Hence, quite the divide just from the rookie year in terms of passing.

Passing as a high level skill is a transferable NBA skill, yes. But to me, there's a difference between being adequate, good, and being an offensive engine like the aforementioned players.

Players also need to be able to leverage their passing skills by distorting defenses, which we've seen an elite passer like Zo struggle to do regularly let alone from big wings who can make an occasional skip pass like Bonga and Avdija (sss).

Anyway, I think Franz is the Tyrese Haliburton of this draft. Even if the ceiling isn't super high (and it's higher for Franz than Hali, imo), most drafts outside of the top few picks return value by finding the right role-player even if swinging on pure upside potential is probably the right thing to do in a vacuum.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:26 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
It absolutely sucks that Jaden Springer is being shafted by scouts for being good at basketball. NBA front offices are going to Jrue Holiday Springer and come to regret it.

But if he's there for the Lakers at #22-25, he's an absolute must take, and I won't be complaining. I know he gets dinged for not being a great athlete, but just watch his footwork and body control in the air - the dude is a legit functional athlete even if he's not going to rack up highlight dunks.


Still don't believe he will make it to the Lakers pick and could be just some scout/team spreading a false narrative hoping he drops.

Yeah, I doubt he falls out of the teens, but it's still frustrating to see scouts miss on an easy top ten pick.

A few fun stats:

- Springer finished better at the rim as a freshman than Keon. On a roughly similar number of attempts with roughly the same percentage of at rim attempts assisted (~ 40% for both), Jaden shot nearly 65% to Keon's 59% despite the former dunking fewer than five times all season.

- Springer posted a robust 6.2 FTA/40 (.441 FTr) as a 6'4 guard. For (admittedly flawed) comparison, Cade racked up 6.5 FTA/40 (.390 FTr) at 6'8 with an additional year of physical maturity.

- A 2.7% steal rate as an 18 year old freshman?? You betcha!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:15 am    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Good lord, Franz is a baby. He's younger than Suggs!


Yep hence the lottery talk. Ton of international experience too.


I have a hard time projecting a lottery pick when I don't see one high end skill or athletic attribute. Taken as a whole he is a nice prospect but more 20-25 I feel.


Talent by player doesn't determine lottery position.

Depth of talent at the top, does.

That's how guys like Deni Avidja go lottery.


Understand the reasoning and realities of the lottery but for prospect rankings especially top 10 I like to see at least 1 redeeming quality that can project to +.

As for Avdija the potential of being a point forward was a + for me as that would allow more flexibility in matching up with opponents. It was difficult to judge without full game action and he is not getting that opportunity with the Wizards. I had the same thought with Bonga.

With Avdija I think he needed to go to a team where he could handle the ball more and learn that way instead of one with both Beal and Westbrook. The Wizards are a bad spot for him to develop imo.

With Bonga I think it was just measurables + age that made him super appealing. He was the 39th pick in his draft, so it's a decent gamble in that range.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:21 am    Post subject:

^ They probably would've been dumped in pursuit of AD/Kawhi, but imagine Mitchell Robinson (or even Time Lord) and De'Anthony Melton instead of Moe and Bonga.
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:22 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
^ They probably would've been dumped in pursuit of AD/Kawhi, but imagine Mitchell Robinson (or even Time Lord) and De'Anthony Melton instead of Moe and Bonga.


That's what I keep telling myself, but at least if there were better value picks in 2018, just trade them for future picks and get the cap room.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:05 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
It absolutely sucks that Jaden Springer is being shafted by scouts for being good at basketball. NBA front offices are going to Jrue Holiday Springer and come to regret it.

But if he's there for the Lakers at #22-25, he's an absolute must take, and I won't be complaining. I know he gets dinged for not being a great athlete, but just watch his footwork and body control in the air - the dude is a legit functional athlete even if he's not going to rack up highlight dunks.


Young too. I actually hate that I have him ranked over Vrenz. But, let other teams make the mistakes and take advantage.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:07 am    Post subject:

https://www.youtube.com/c/ProInsight/videos

Video series channel.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:58 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
^ They probably would've been dumped in pursuit of AD/Kawhi, but imagine Mitchell Robinson (or even Time Lord) and De'Anthony Melton instead of Moe and Bonga.

Magic wanted the Michigan guy because of course.
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:12 pm    Post subject:

Practice wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
^ They probably would've been dumped in pursuit of AD/Kawhi, but imagine Mitchell Robinson (or even Time Lord) and De'Anthony Melton instead of Moe and Bonga.

Magic wanted the Michigan guy because of course.


So did Josh Hart.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:49 am    Post subject:

https://twitter.com/NBADraftScoutin/status/1388210182883319808
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:05 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
https://twitter.com/NBADraftScoutin/status/1388210182883319808

Missing
McKinley Wright 40-50
Jericho Sims 40-50

Don't believe he declared for the draft
Buddy Boeheim 25-40
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 10:35 am    Post subject:

https://twitter.com/BrianJDraft/status/1388923275913334785
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 1:01 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
https://twitter.com/BrianJDraft/status/1388923275913334785

I assume the bolded names are his top 20?
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject:

^something like that, but I disagree with a lot of the picks. I just like a different way of structure, because it somehow makes it easier to sort it in terms of BPA best to worst.
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 5:40 pm    Post subject:

Aside from Giddey who are the best playmaking perimeter guys in the late lotto to 22 range?
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