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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:10 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
jaden springer doesn't even look like an NBA prospect to me.

and sorry no matter how much chris duarte's tape looks solid, he's 24. that (bleep) is absolutely disqualifying. if you're an nba prospect at 24 playing against college kids you should be completely and utterly destroying them.


his shooting percentages reflect destruction do they not? 71/52/40 rim/mid/3

Low volume on 3s, especially self-creation 3s, but good volume on trips to the line despite having an "F-" handle. Jumper form looks good overall to my eye.

Anyway, my super high upside comp is Mitch Richmond.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:14 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Practice wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Roko Prkacin has withdrawn from the draft. I hate NBA scouts so much.


He will probably go a lot higher next year vs not being a guarantee for the first round this year in addition to whatever feedback he has gotten from teams. This is probably the smart play for him.


There's no skill in Cibona he could have actually improved on that much in order to warrant lottery attention.

He was already lottery this year.


While he probably should go lottery that does not seem like where he was going to go. Him thinking he can go higher next year is just my guess for why he withdrew.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:16 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
jaden springer doesn't even look like an NBA prospect to me.

and sorry no matter how much chris duarte's tape looks solid, he's 24. that (bleep) is absolutely disqualifying. if you're an nba prospect at 24 playing against college kids you should be completely and utterly destroying them.


his shooting percentages reflect destruction do they not? 71/52/40 rim/mid/3

Low volume on 3s, especially self-creation 3s, but good volume on trips to the line despite having an "F-" handle. Jumper form looks good overall to my eye.

Anyway, my super high upside comp is Mitch Richmond.


I was more along the lines of Short Anunoby.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:17 pm    Post subject:

Practice wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Practice wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Roko Prkacin has withdrawn from the draft. I hate NBA scouts so much.


He will probably go a lot higher next year vs not being a guarantee for the first round this year in addition to whatever feedback he has gotten from teams. This is probably the smart play for him.


There's no skill in Cibona he could have actually improved on that much in order to warrant lottery attention.

He was already lottery this year.


While he probably should go lottery that does not seem like where he was going to go. Him thinking he can go higher next year is just my guess for why he withdrew.


It's because his dad is running the "sports agency" for his draft. It didn't work.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:01 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
jaden springer doesn't even look like an NBA prospect to me.

and sorry no matter how much chris duarte's tape looks solid, he's 24. that (bleep) is absolutely disqualifying. if you're an nba prospect at 24 playing against college kids you should be completely and utterly destroying them.


his shooting percentages reflect destruction do they not? 71/52/40 rim/mid/3

Low volume on 3s, especially self-creation 3s, but good volume on trips to the line despite having an "F-" handle. Jumper form looks good overall to my eye.

Anyway, my super high upside comp is Mitch Richmond.


was Mike talking about Duarte here and you Springer?

anwyho. the good man 44thelogo on my side with Springer

I'm considering whether Springer can become Marcus Smart........

I'm watching this Marcus Smart game and I'm startled at how identical Smart and Springer look... athletically, ball handling, jump stops, some passing (I think Smart is a better passer.. which comes from his PG play in college) jumper even looks kinda similar


that's Springer's absolute ceiling on both sides of the ball. I'ma think more about this..... I'm not too optimistic Springer can hit that ceiling on either side of the ball but I'ma think about it
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:31 pm    Post subject:

A realistic high end outcome play for Springer -
halfway decent dribble move, gets an advantage by a spin move at that jumpstop area that Springer always gets to, short range assist....... identical play. I'm not too confident Springer's handle will make this play consistently but ya.

Will Springer be able to manipulate a P&R rejection like this, consistently? High end handle outcome for him. Not saying it's the most advanced play but.

this would be one of the best crosses that Springer did in college, and I didn't see it more than a couple times. Uses strength/body to bump-off for the shot right where Springer always ends up at. This is a pretty high outcome play
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:45 am    Post subject:

Moses Moody's smooth movements and proclivity for stepbacks remind me of Bonzi Wells


strength too
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:56 am    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
A realistic high end outcome play for Springer -
halfway decent dribble move, gets an advantage by a spin move at that jumpstop area that Springer always gets to, short range assist....... identical play. I'm not too confident Springer's handle will make this play consistently but ya.

Will Springer be able to manipulate a P&R rejection like this, consistently? High end handle outcome for him. Not saying it's the most advanced play but.

this would be one of the best crosses that Springer did in college, and I didn't see it more than a couple times. Uses strength/body to bump-off for the shot right where Springer always ends up at. This is a pretty high outcome play


If you're still projecting Springer to be a lead initiator, this isn't the route to his immediate success.

But considering you're looking at Springer with a Marcus Smart archetype, how good do you think Marcus Smart was at 18?

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/marcus-smart-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jaden-springer-1.html

I'll take the guy with better shooting indicators and at least an understanding/comfort ability to pull up from midrange. That's not Marcus Smart.

Rim, mid, arc, FT

2nd year Smart 65/31/30/73
1st year Springer 65/34/44/81
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:28 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
A realistic high end outcome play for Springer -
halfway decent dribble move, gets an advantage by a spin move at that jumpstop area that Springer always gets to, short range assist....... identical play. I'm not too confident Springer's handle will make this play consistently but ya.

Will Springer be able to manipulate a P&R rejection like this, consistently? High end handle outcome for him. Not saying it's the most advanced play but.

this would be one of the best crosses that Springer did in college, and I didn't see it more than a couple times. Uses strength/body to bump-off for the shot right where Springer always ends up at. This is a pretty high outcome play


If you're still projecting Springer to be a lead initiator, this isn't the route to his immediate success.

But considering you're looking at Springer with a Marcus Smart archetype, how good do you think Marcus Smart was at 18?

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/marcus-smart-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jaden-springer-1.html

I'll take the guy with better shooting indicators and at least an understanding/comfort ability to pull up from midrange. That's not Marcus Smart.

Rim, mid, arc, FT

2nd year Smart 65/31/30/73
1st year Springer 65/34/44/81


I don't get how that's a discussion; or people think it's a possibility. He shouldn't be called a combo guard, even

Yea I think Marcus Smart is his ceiling on both sides of the ball, and he has an okay chance of hitting it. I don't think he'd do Point Guard stuff as much as Smart, but he could grow into executing similar moves more decisively, with less freelancing before the action

I'm not crazy low on him; I'm just weighing how likely or not it is, that he'll develop M.Smart level skill off the dribble. He's got a ways to go.. So that question of development puts him fringe lotto for me. The theme of players in the 5-20 range is a lot of questions in their game, Springer is no different.. we can each choose who we have confidence in to grow
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:03 am    Post subject:

I've legitimately called him a wing in a PG body several times.

But you summed it up. 5-20 is a ton of questions. I know you're catching on later into the draft process, but that's been known for months. Are there players I would take over Springer? Sure, just not as many. But he's actually one of the guys that may actually slip, for the same reason THT slipped. Yet, there's proven indicators and age on their side with flashes of ability to play. Why would LAL pass that up?

Like I don't even think he's Marcus Smart. I think of some floor of Aaron Afflalo or the like. At 22? That's a steal. Is there upside still? Yes. That makes it worth it to me.

This isn't like Keon Johnson or JT Thor with clearer, flashier highlights, but don't really know what they're doing on the floor, but I guess that counts too. If the draft was a decade earlier, both of those guys would be easily lottery, and perhaps Thor top 5. But in an NBA world where the floor of athleticism from role players is a ton higher, you need to find guys that can do at least 1 thing. Springer does 2. Pull up mid range. POA defense. Ancillary - initiate contact in the paint. Upside - ball handling leading to PnR play. Not really a ton of guys 5-20 you can say that about.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
jaden springer doesn't even look like an NBA prospect to me.

and sorry no matter how much chris duarte's tape looks solid, he's 24. that (bleep) is absolutely disqualifying. if you're an nba prospect at 24 playing against college kids you should be completely and utterly destroying them.


his shooting percentages reflect destruction do they not? 71/52/40 rim/mid/3

Low volume on 3s, especially self-creation 3s, but good volume on trips to the line despite having an "F-" handle. Jumper form looks good overall to my eye.

Anyway, my super high upside comp is Mitch Richmond.


was Mike talking about Duarte here and you Springer?

anwyho. the good man 44thelogo on my side with Springer

I'm considering whether Springer can become Marcus Smart........

I'm watching this Marcus Smart game and I'm startled at how identical Smart and Springer look... athletically, ball handling, jump stops, some passing (I think Smart is a better passer.. which comes from his PG play in college) jumper even looks kinda similar


that's Springer's absolute ceiling on both sides of the ball. I'ma think more about this..... I'm not too optimistic Springer can hit that ceiling on either side of the ball but I'ma think about it

Did you both have Lonnie Walker rated above Trae Young or was that just 44TL?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:25 am    Post subject:

All I know for me is most years I'd look at a couple 10min highlight vids of a player and that'd be it.. maybe a couple more clips and a DX vid. haha

This year I've seen more of the players. Zion's year I watched a good amount of the prospects too

excuses
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:07 am    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
All I know for me is most years I'd look at a couple 10min highlight vids of a player and that'd be it.. maybe a couple more clips and a DX vid. haha

This year I've seen more of the players. Zion's year I watched a good amount of the prospects too

excuses

One of these days I'm sure Bol Bol will pan out and I'll be vindicated!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:08 am    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
All I know for me is most years I'd look at a couple 10min highlight vids of a player and that'd be it.. maybe a couple more clips and a DX vid. haha

This year I've seen more of the players. Zion's year I watched a good amount of the prospects too

excuses


Jared Butler or James Bouknight?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:25 am    Post subject:

I'm not down with the Smart comps outside of their similar physical builds. Smart for better and worse has more of a gunner's mentality whereas Springer's a more controlled (limited?) creator.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:39 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
jaden springer doesn't even look like an NBA prospect to me.

and sorry no matter how much chris duarte's tape looks solid, he's 24. that (bleep) is absolutely disqualifying. if you're an nba prospect at 24 playing against college kids you should be completely and utterly destroying them.


his shooting percentages reflect destruction do they not? 71/52/40 rim/mid/3

Low volume on 3s, especially self-creation 3s, but good volume on trips to the line despite having an "F-" handle. Jumper form looks good overall to my eye.

Anyway, my super high upside comp is Mitch Richmond.


was Mike talking about Duarte here and you Springer?

anwyho. the good man 44thelogo on my side with Springer

I'm considering whether Springer can become Marcus Smart........

I'm watching this Marcus Smart game and I'm startled at how identical Smart and Springer look... athletically, ball handling, jump stops, some passing (I think Smart is a better passer.. which comes from his PG play in college) jumper even looks kinda similar


that's Springer's absolute ceiling on both sides of the ball. I'ma think more about this..... I'm not too optimistic Springer can hit that ceiling on either side of the ball but I'ma think about it

Did you both have Lonnie Walker rated above Trae Young or was that just 44TL?


that year i had trae #1, but i think i had some really egregious misses w/ lonnie and bamba in my top 5. lonnie i missed on because i got attached to my call on donovan mitchell being top 5 the year before and thought lonnie would be the spida of 2018, completely missing on the fact that donovan's handle was like 10x better than lonnie's. one of the reasons i learned to look at hand size for players who need to have good handle to hit.

anyway i've only looked at superficial videos of some of these players. springer's offensive package is very ron artest-like, but he doesn't have the outlier strength or physical profile to go with it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:41 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
All I know for me is most years I'd look at a couple 10min highlight vids of a player and that'd be it.. maybe a couple more clips and a DX vid. haha

This year I've seen more of the players. Zion's year I watched a good amount of the prospects too

excuses


Jared Butler or James Bouknight?


I've bought a bit into Bouknight having nice upside so I'll go with him.

If I could trust Butler to be a PG/consistent lead-guard.. then it'd be close for me. I think part of Butler's upside for me is improving his pace in the halfcourt - it'd make him better in the P&R game, even passing, drawing drawing more of the D's attention to kick. And it'd maintain his great finishing, which I have some doubts about it translating to above average, and that's because he drives in at slow mph. great touch though in the lane.
Butler's safer, although I don't think Bouknight is particularly unsafe.

btw, look at this
my first thought was "wow Mitchell looks like a blur.." then I saw Sims stay with him and look like he was in turbo himself, wow..connecting that slide to the on-time leap
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
jaden springer doesn't even look like an NBA prospect to me.

and sorry no matter how much chris duarte's tape looks solid, he's 24. that (bleep) is absolutely disqualifying. if you're an nba prospect at 24 playing against college kids you should be completely and utterly destroying them.


his shooting percentages reflect destruction do they not? 71/52/40 rim/mid/3


it's not enough for the age gap. duarte should be comped to a player like cameron johnson, RIGHT NOW. do you see duarte playing crunch time in the NBA finals today?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:57 am    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
All I know for me is most years I'd look at a couple 10min highlight vids of a player and that'd be it.. maybe a couple more clips and a DX vid. haha

This year I've seen more of the players. Zion's year I watched a good amount of the prospects too

excuses


Jared Butler or James Bouknight?


I've bought a bit into Bouknight having nice upside so I'll go with him.

If I could trust Butler to be a PG/consistent lead-guard.. then it'd be close for me. I think part of Butler's upside for me is improving his pace in the halfcourt - it'd make him better in the P&R game, even passing, drawing drawing more of the D's attention to kick. And it'd maintain his great finishing, which I have some doubts about it translating to above average, and that's because he drives in at slow mph. great touch though in the lane.
Butler's safer, although I don't think Bouknight is particularly unsafe.

btw, look at this
my first thought was "wow Mitchell looks like a blur.." then I saw Sims stay with him and look like he was in turbo himself, wow..connecting that slide to the on-time leap


The difference in ball handling and PnR reps is night and day compared to Bouknight, that's why I asked.

Butler is so your type of player, but you're still choosing Bouknight.

I also don't know what you mean about improving pace. Already saw tons of him playing intermediate speeds in PnR.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:58 am    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
jaden springer doesn't even look like an NBA prospect to me.

and sorry no matter how much chris duarte's tape looks solid, he's 24. that (bleep) is absolutely disqualifying. if you're an nba prospect at 24 playing against college kids you should be completely and utterly destroying them.


his shooting percentages reflect destruction do they not? 71/52/40 rim/mid/3


it's not enough for the age gap. duarte should be comped to a player like cameron johnson, RIGHT NOW. do you see duarte playing crunch time in the NBA finals today?


I don't see any rookie doing that. Even Cam is a 2-year pro.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
All I know for me is most years I'd look at a couple 10min highlight vids of a player and that'd be it.. maybe a couple more clips and a DX vid. haha

This year I've seen more of the players. Zion's year I watched a good amount of the prospects too

excuses


Jared Butler or James Bouknight?


I've bought a bit into Bouknight having nice upside so I'll go with him.

If I could trust Butler to be a PG/consistent lead-guard.. then it'd be close for me. I think part of Butler's upside for me is improving his pace in the halfcourt - it'd make him better in the P&R game, even passing, drawing drawing more of the D's attention to kick. And it'd maintain his great finishing, which I have some doubts about it translating to above average, and that's because he drives in at slow mph. great touch though in the lane.
Butler's safer, although I don't think Bouknight is particularly unsafe.

btw, look at this
my first thought was "wow Mitchell looks like a blur.." then I saw Sims stay with him and look like he was in turbo himself, wow..connecting that slide to the on-time leap


The difference in ball handling and PnR reps is night and day compared to Bouknight, that's why I asked.


ah, yea..
I'd be curious to see Butler's P&R synergy stats. I have to watch more, I've seen the nice passes but I've also seen so much hesitance, indecision, bad passes..
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:30 am    Post subject:

when he attacks the rim with pace he can use his bowling ball frame... he's a good leaper too.. but you don't leap your best going 10mph
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:40 pm    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
All I know for me is most years I'd look at a couple 10min highlight vids of a player and that'd be it.. maybe a couple more clips and a DX vid. haha

This year I've seen more of the players. Zion's year I watched a good amount of the prospects too

excuses


Jared Butler or James Bouknight?


I've bought a bit into Bouknight having nice upside so I'll go with him.

If I could trust Butler to be a PG/consistent lead-guard.. then it'd be close for me. I think part of Butler's upside for me is improving his pace in the halfcourt - it'd make him better in the P&R game, even passing, drawing drawing more of the D's attention to kick. And it'd maintain his great finishing, which I have some doubts about it translating to above average, and that's because he drives in at slow mph. great touch though in the lane.
Butler's safer, although I don't think Bouknight is particularly unsafe.

btw, look at this
my first thought was "wow Mitchell looks like a blur.." then I saw Sims stay with him and look like he was in turbo himself, wow..connecting that slide to the on-time leap


The difference in ball handling and PnR reps is night and day compared to Bouknight, that's why I asked.


ah, yea..
I'd be curious to see Butler's P&R synergy stats. I have to watch more, I've seen the nice passes but I've also seen so much hesitance, indecision, bad passes..


The link is in my signature. That'll also link to an article from the Stepien that'll give you the synergy numbers you're looking for.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:40 pm    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
https://youtu.be/8PhHVDB_paU?t=381 when he attacks the rim with pace he can use his bowling ball frame... he's a good leaper too.. but you don't leap your best going 10mph


That's as good as it's going to get. I'm legit not so worried about it as you are.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:34 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
jaden springer doesn't even look like an NBA prospect to me.

and sorry no matter how much chris duarte's tape looks solid, he's 24. that (bleep) is absolutely disqualifying. if you're an nba prospect at 24 playing against college kids you should be completely and utterly destroying them.


his shooting percentages reflect destruction do they not? 71/52/40 rim/mid/3


it's not enough for the age gap. duarte should be comped to a player like cameron johnson, RIGHT NOW. do you see duarte playing crunch time in the NBA finals today?


I don't see any rookie doing that. Even Cam is a 2-year pro.


yeah, that's my point. he's 24, he should be a 2 year pro rather than playing against kids.

and butler > bouknight
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