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ChickenStu
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:26 pm    Post subject:

^
You're going to find out really quickly just how valuable he was to that team, which has holes. Yes, they have had a good O-line, but they have lost a quality RT (Bulaga) and an all-Pro center (Linsley) in back-to-back offseasons. Yes, they have an all-Pro WR, but they have poor depth at WR behind him. If you think Robert Tonyan is good, watch what happens with another QB. As for the defense, they can rush the passer a bit and they have one outstanding CB in Alexander. But this is a bad defense, a defense that can't stop the run at all and can't cover anyone outside of who Alexander's assignment is on any given snap. Without an all-World offense, which was because of Rodgers, you're going to see their time of possession decline a ton, and you're going to see the defense out there more, and you're going to see this team get exposed.

If Love is their starter this year, Green Bay will be drafting in the top 10. Maybe even a shot at top 5.
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:43 pm    Post subject:

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angrypuppy wrote:
I hated the Jordan Love pick last season, it just seemed stupid beyond belief for Green Bay to have picked a QB in the first round. But now I'm beginning to wonder whether we're selling GB management short on this one. GB management knew first-hard that Rodgers was playing hardball in terms of an extension, not to mention he's easily slighted and holds deep grudges. Maybe they were compelled to pick Jordan Love in order to hedge their risk. They must have known that Rodgers would either walk after next season, or was a very credible threat to walk.

Rodgers started a war and GB is pushing back. It's a no win game, one that Rodgers started.


Here's the problem: you can't (or, at least, you shouldn't) draft a 1st Round QB and then not play him by year two. Otherwise, you're wasting the rookie contract. If they are playing the leverage game, OK, now what? This is year two. From what I understand, Love didn't exactly look good on the practice field, and never even made it to backup QB status last year. Now, that doesn't automatically mean he can't have a good career, but the early returns are very dispiriting.

Rodgers is eccentric, yes. He's also one of the greatest to ever play the game. And they chased him away. They bear more of the responsibility in the impending divorce, for sure. Year after year, they never went the extra mile to get him further help, which is bad enough. But last year really took it to another level. Not only do you draft a 1st Round QB, but the GM didn't even tell the head coach, apparently, so of course the lines of communication were a disaster. Then you draft a 2nd Round RB when there were 2 guys ahead of him last season, and then you re-sign Aaron Jones so that RB isn't even going to be a starter this season. Then you take an insignificant H-back as your 3rd Round pick. Then you tell him you will accommodate him and trade him this offseason, which at least jibes with the logic of getting a 1st Round QB on the field by year two. Then they go back on that, probably realizing that their 1st Round QB is nowhere near ready to play. And Rodgers just had it and now he's gone nuclear, releasing hit pieces on the day of the draft and even fabricating stuff like the "I told free agents I wasn't going to be here" story, even though Aaron Jones re-signed.

This has become very personal for him. Like with Kawhi once upon a time in San Antonio. If it's true that the team told him it would trade him this offseason and then went back on that, I don't blame him one bit.



Of course it's awful to draft a QB in the first round when you're starting QB is elite, but my point (again) is that something was likely happening behind the scenes. Do you really think GB hadn't reached out to Rodgers, asking for an extension? Of course not. In all likelihood Rodger's demand were insurmountable, and perhaps insurmountable by design as he is quite passive aggressive. Management probably felt they were in a bind as Rodgers was going to walk at the end of his contract.

That's the only way any of this makes sense. There isn't a GM in the game, current or past who would prefer Love over Rodgers. Forget rookie QB contracts, this move was made to hedge the risk of Rodgers walking. GB has made some bone-headed moves, but you'd be hard pressed to find teams that have consistently been brilliant. I'm a New England fan, and Belichick's decisions have become so weird and his decision-making erratic that he makes GB look like a paragon of sound reasoning. So what? Every football team blows drafts and makes weird decisions from time to time. But my point is that Jordan Love wasn't as weird a decision as anyone here realizes. It was a move made purely because Rodgers wasn't re-signing, which is logic that somehow escapes Aaron Rodgers and all of his fans.
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ChickenStu
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:07 pm    Post subject:

^
So you trade up to take a project QB? Sorry, I'm not with you on this one, ap. If you draft a 1st Round QB to prepare for the possibility of losing Rodgers, then that dude better be ready to play. And by all accounts, he isn't ready to play, which is why GB is pushing back so hard trying to smooth things over with Rodgers.

As for this "passive aggressive" stuff, look, he's nearing the end of his contract. He was literally just named the MVP of the entire league. You don't think it's reasonable that he might expect the team to commit to him? Or, at least, if they drafted his successor last year, he deserves to be traded, especially if they specifically told him that they would do just that and then reneged on that. Drafting a 1st Round QB and not playing him in the first 2 years reveals just how dysfunctional their entire process is, regardless of what you think of Rodgers. If your idea was to move on, then move on. They probably weren't expecting Rodgers to be as good as he was last season, sure. But to me, if you have the MVP of the league who is in his late 30's who has not hinted at retirement (other than as a leverage play right now), and when you've seen Brady and Brees play well into their 40's and with the rules as they are now as far as not being able to really hammer QB's, you have a decision to make. On one hand, you could commit to Rodgers, give him an extension, and see Love as a sunk cost in terms of the possibility of him becoming the starter. That's clearly what they should do, in my view. Or, on the other hand, you double down on your 1st Round pick, get him on the field, and trade Rodgers for a ransom.

Their process has been awful from the start of this, and the Packers deserve all of the flak that they are getting. They took a QB in the 1st Round of the draft and that QB is apparently nowhere near ready to play in year two. If their idea was to put pressure on Rodgers, it's gone about as badly as it could have. Now they are trying to get Rodgers out there for one more year and go year-to-year on this. He's rightfully applying the pressure. We'll see if he gets what he wants. I suspect that he will.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
^
So you trade up to take a project QB? Sorry, I'm not with you on this one, ap. If you draft a 1st Round QB to prepare for the possibility of losing Rodgers, then that dude better be ready to play. And by all accounts, he isn't ready to play, which is why GB is pushing back so hard trying to smooth things over with Rodgers.

As for this "passive aggressive" stuff, look, he's nearing the end of his contract. He was literally just named the MVP of the entire league. You don't think it's reasonable that he might expect the team to commit to him? Or, at least, if they drafted his successor last year, he deserves to be traded, especially if they specifically told him that they would do just that and then reneged on that. Drafting a 1st Round QB and not playing him in the first 2 years reveals just how dysfunctional their entire process is, regardless of what you think of Rodgers. If your idea was to move on, then move on. They probably weren't expecting Rodgers to be as good as he was last season, sure. But to me, if you have the MVP of the league who is in his late 30's who has not hinted at retirement (other than as a leverage play right now), and when you've seen Brady and Brees play well into their 40's and with the rules as they are now as far as not being able to really hammer QB's, you have a decision to make. On one hand, you could commit to Rodgers, give him an extension, and see Love as a sunk cost in terms of the possibility of him becoming the starter. That's clearly what they should do, in my view. Or, on the other hand, you double down on your 1st Round pick, get him on the field, and trade Rodgers for a ransom.

Their process has been awful from the start of this, and the Packers deserve all of the flak that they are getting. They took a QB in the 1st Round of the draft and that QB is apparently nowhere near ready to play in year two. If their idea was to put pressure on Rodgers, it's gone about as badly as it could have. Now they are trying to get Rodgers out there for one more year and go year-to-year on this. He's rightfully applying the pressure. We'll see if he gets what he wants. I suspect that he will.



But that's exactly my point, the project QB didn't have to be ready for 2020 season, and in fact Gutekunst probably thought that Rodgers won't walk until the 2021 season ends. Rodgers isn't likely going to walk away from something north of $35 million. In fact, if Rodgers wants to retire, he'll have to give $10 million or perhaps $30 million+ back to the franchise, as these contracts do not represent cash flows. That's why a developmental QB makes sense, you don't need him Day 1, you need him after two seasons. Many young QBs are ruined by NFL teams throwing them into the fire too early, and a developmental QB like Love (or more recently Trey Lance) should sit out the entire first season, and perhaps evaluated during the second season once they learn and really understand the system.

The alternative is to burn far more draft capital on taking a QB that is closer to be ready day one, like multiple future first round picks. And that's if your lucky enough to find a trade partner. The third alternative is to do nothing, maybe draft a CB instead of Love. With the benefit of hindsight, that is rational. But what happens when Rodgers leaves? As a GM, would you be comfortable knowing that everyone wants you fired for not re-signing Rodgers, and not being prepared for the all but certain outcome of Rodgers leaving after the 2021 season?

I said before that I hated GB drafting Love, but when I look at the players (Rodgers, Gutekunst), the contentious underlying relationship that predates Gutekunst, and the inability of Gutekunst to extend Rodgers, this entire game of chicken makes sense. Gutekunst was protecting his ass while he thought he was protecting GB.

Let me ask you then CS, why did they draft Love? Do you really believe that GB was just being capricious? Or that they believed Love would take the job from Rodgers?
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panamaniac
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:22 am    Post subject:

Drafting Love was just another bad move in a long line of bad moves by Green Bay. I wouldn’t have any issue giving GB the benefit of the doubt if their recent track record would merit that. But the truth is they haven’t been making sound managerial decisions for quite some time. Rodgers frustration arose from GBs sustained incompetency, now compounded by them not wanting to pay him. I guess the Love selection was savvy, if you look really hard, after all they do need someone under center if Rodgers bolts. But it should have never escalated this far, and in this case I put that on the organization.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:39 am    Post subject:

The Love pick was roasted the moment it was made. With the way rookie contracts are structured now, you're simply giving away too much value if that 1st Round QB isn't starting by year two. So let's say Rodgers comes back for another season. OK, you know Love isn't getting on the field this year. Now you're into year three, and you have no idea if he's good in a live game environment or not. Granted, perhaps you can see advancements on the practice field, but that's still not the same thing.

With certain QB's, even late 1st rounders or beyond that, you may have a reasonable expectation that they could play relatively early. Love was not that. Not at all. It was just such an odd choice from the beginning. And this was a team right on the cusp of a Super Bowl appearance, like right there. That has to be factored in. With a little help in last year's draft, perhaps they could have gotten over the hump. Obviously, we'll never know. But yeah, it's not like this is a team where you aren't good so you might be able to get Love on the field sometime in year two because you just pass the baton and essentially tank out the rest of the year when the playoffs become clearly out of reach. You're a contender. So, yeah, sitting the guy for two entire years is a major misplay, imo. And if Rodgers is great again, well, why exactly are you moving on in the first place? You're going to move on from Aaron Rodgers over...Jordan Love?

The whole thing is just so silly to me.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 12:22 pm    Post subject:

So you're saying that Green Bay traded into the first round because the GM was being capricious? Sorry, I don't buy that. When you expend a first round pick (and especially when you spend capital to move up) in the NFL, you're not doing it for depth, you're doing it to answer a need. Love was not a capricious pick, and he wasn't made for depth. He was to make sure that Green Bay had a backup plan in case Rodgers left in 2021, and given the contentious relationship with Rodgers, it is most certainly the reason why Gutekunst made that pick.

And yes, Love could replace Rodgers. There wasn't a HOFer on deck in Green Bay... but then maybe they felt that way when they transitioned from HOFer Brett Favre for the late first rounder named Aaron Rodgers. Love is highly unlikely to be the next Rodgers, but then I'm sure Rodgers seemed like a HOF long-shot as well as both draftee and replacement for Favre. In fact, that might be GB's thought process when the took Love.

I'm am not feeling it for the capricious theory, it makes no sense. I hated the pick, but we're now over a year since that draft and still Rodgers refuses to be extended. First, he could demand to be the highest paid QB in the league and get extended, so it has to be something else. Second, the more the curtain gets drawn back, the depth of loathing becomes more apparent. The relationship is ruined, I see Rodgers returning this season and then leaving. And GB will at that point in time have a developmental QB with knowledge of the system in place.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 2:30 pm    Post subject:

To be clear, I have no idea why they made the pick. It makes no logical sense no matter how you look at it. And that's why they are getting roasted for it. If you drafted him, my view would be that you have to follow through on that and that he should play this year and that you get a ransom for Rodgers. Don't do this dog and pony show trying to get one more year out of Rodgers, especially if you communicated to him that you'd trade him this offseason.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 4:07 pm    Post subject:

Great discussion guys, I dig all your takes on it.

To me, this is far and away the most interesting story of the off-season, along with Urban Meyer taking over Jacksonville.

We are talking the current league MVP for crissakes, if I am Green Bay I just ask Rodgers straight out...if we blow out the GM who took Love, will you stay?

If not, then I am not sure what else they can do other than try and play chicken as far as trade vs. retirement and such.

It appears to me the ship sailed for Aaron as soon as they drafted Love, he was done with the organization in his mind right there. Strange as it sounds, I actually commend him for telling potential free agents "Hey, don't sign here because of me as I am going to be gone" as reported. Bad for the team, but gives you street cred with the players for sure.

Elway will go all in if the opportunity is really there, he knows he is winning nothing with Dancing Drew Lock and/or Teddy Game Manager Bridgewater.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject:

^
I agree that Denver will give up a ton if that's what it takes. We saw them go heavy after Peyton Manning, even though, of course, that just cost money, not draft picks. Still, even though Denver has a new GM (George Paton), I think they will absolutely give up a ton for Rodgers. That is a strong roster apart from the QB position.

Was it actually leaked that Rodgers would stay if they blow out Gutekunst? If it was, then that's coming directly from his camp, so he would look pretty bad if he held out or retired if they fired Gutekunst. I'd have to think he'd be willing to play for the Packers if they did fire him, likely with an extension in tow. The new GM can trade Love for a 3rd or 4th round pick or something.
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2021 2:25 pm    Post subject:

Curious to see where Le'Veon and Julio will end up. Could the Packers get Julio? Would be fun. Realistically New England and Denver seem likely destinations.
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2021 7:52 pm    Post subject:

panamaniac wrote:
Curious to see where Le'Veon and Julio will end up. Could the Packers get Julio? Would be fun. Realistically New England and Denver seem likely destinations.


Does Le'Veon have anything left?
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2021 9:13 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
Curious to see where Le'Veon and Julio will end up. Could the Packers get Julio? Would be fun. Realistically New England and Denver seem likely destinations.


Does Le'Veon have anything left?


I think so. His yards per carry were over 4 he just couldn't see many reps with Edwards-Helaire being the feature back. He was also a reliable check down option for Mahomes on 3rd downs. Still only 29.
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2021 9:17 pm    Post subject:

panamaniac wrote:
adkindo wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
Curious to see where Le'Veon and Julio will end up. Could the Packers get Julio? Would be fun. Realistically New England and Denver seem likely destinations.


Does Le'Veon have anything left?


I think so. His yards per carry were over 4 he just couldn't see many reps with Edwards-Helaire being the feature back. He was also a reliable check down option for Mahomes on 3rd downs. Still only 29.


Has never looked the same since he took a year off football.
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2021 10:08 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
adkindo wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
Curious to see where Le'Veon and Julio will end up. Could the Packers get Julio? Would be fun. Realistically New England and Denver seem likely destinations.


Does Le'Veon have anything left?


I think so. His yards per carry were over 4 he just couldn't see many reps with Edwards-Helaire being the feature back. He was also a reliable check down option for Mahomes on 3rd downs. Still only 29.


Has never looked the same since he took a year off football.


I thought he looked good with KC. Albeit small sample. I do want to see him on a team not named the Jets for a full year before I write him off.
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2021 6:19 am    Post subject:

panamaniac wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
adkindo wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
Curious to see where Le'Veon and Julio will end up. Could the Packers get Julio? Would be fun. Realistically New England and Denver seem likely destinations.


Does Le'Veon have anything left?


I think so. His yards per carry were over 4 he just couldn't see many reps with Edwards-Helaire being the feature back. He was also a reliable check down option for Mahomes on 3rd downs. Still only 29.


Has never looked the same since he took a year off football.


I thought he looked good with KC. Albeit small sample. I do want to see him on a team not named the Jets for a full year before I write him off.



I think he's still capable, though teams are perhaps weary due to reputation effects plus the fact that he sank on the KC depth chart.

He was outstanding with Pittsburgh, but then that OL was arguably the best in the NFL. Bell's running style meshed perfectly with the OL, as he could patiently wait for the running lanes to develop, frequently lying in wait behind a Steeler blocker. I think he suffered more from playing behind the NY Jets' OL rather than the year layoff, anyone who watched football knew that he wasn't going to look like Le'Veon Bell behind that implosive NYJ OL; the blocks and running lanes weren't going to develop.

What's amazing is how talented Pittsburgh was during Bell's hey day, they easily had the most talented teams in the NFL and yet they could never make it to the Super Bowl. Part of the problem was Bell's propensity to get injured late season. RBs take an incredible amount of abuse.

Though teams seem weary, he would be a nice signing, particularly in the event a team loses a RB1. Behind a quality OL where he could use his superior vision, patience and processing skills, I think he could still make a decent contribution on the field.
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject:

Great, more political theater involving New England ownership, Donald Trump, and the late Senator Specter. The gist is that it looks like a possible bribe as it involves looking favorably on a position (or ignoring that position) in exchange for a nebulous campaign contribution. Unfortunately it stinks, but it is a product of what we have come to expect out of our government and it's dealings with big business. I like to call it, "The cost of doing business in America."

I couldn't help but notice that Sen. Specter was morally outraged, and took this event as an opportunity to grandstand in his third autobiography. Yet moral outrage has limits outside of the public eye. He continued his private friendship with Robert Kraft and Donald Trump.

This is why I detest most politicians. Always grandstanding on moral principles that they never follow.
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 12:46 pm    Post subject:

I couldn't help but notice that the Rams have moved all the way up to +500 with the oddsmakers to land Julio Jones, practically even with the Patriots, who are the very slight +450 favorites, and close with a few other teams at close to 5-to-1 odds. Last week when the odds opened, the Rams were 66-to-1 (+6600). We know the Rams don't care about draft picks and have been willing to go for it with big names over the past few years. So in that sense, I could see them having serious interest. Stafford is used to having a big-bodied, athletic WR on the perimeter to throw to (Megatron and Golladay) and the Rams don't have that right now. Perhaps one of Woods or Kupp could be a part of the deal, as they make similar money to Julio? Maybe one of those guys plus a draft pick?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:54 am    Post subject:

Big trade. Atlanta traded Julio Jones to Tennessee for at least a 2nd round pick.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:52 pm    Post subject:

Damn I had him going to New England. Good fit with the Titans if healthy.
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