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LarryCoon
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:49 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
kikanga wrote:
something from nothing.

I chose the universal singularity but you could easily go before that.

Wouldn't be surprised if a universe existed before ours.

I do wonder what the atheist perspective is to the beginning of everything is though.


Why should "the athiest perspective" be anything? We're not some organized body. The word literally means "without God." Do you believe that Elvis is alive? No? Well, what's the aElvist perspective on pineapple on pizza? There must be one, for those who think that Elvis is alive, right?

Now substitute "God" for "Elvis is alive" and "beginning of everything" for "pineapple on pizza."

And I asked this before -- why can't the answer "I don't know" satisfy you? I don't need to know that.

Given the universe we live in, it may be the final answer is simply unavailable to us. Imagine you wake up in a soundproof room with no doors or windows, and want to know what's on the other side of the wall. The answer is not available to you. Likewise, we're operating within the confines of spacetime in this universe, so what came before or exists outside may always be unavailable. And from our perspective -- like I said -- the questions themselves break down. Like "what's north of the north pole" does.

But like I said, that doesn't mean we don't know anything.

And I do know that when we do find out the answers to things, they always turn out not to be God. I should say -- turn out not to require a god. And we already know enough to know that they beginning of the universe doesn't require one either. Even if we don't know what existed "before" or have a Youtube video showing it live.

And I do know that "if not A therefore B" is bad logic. I haven't even begun to go into why B is so implausible.

And I do know that just because we don't know everything, it doesn't mean we know nothing. I already recommended a book to you if you want to go into it. But you keep going back to the basic question without budging -- which is why these discussions tend to never go anywhere -- because there's zero learning curve.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:39 am    Post subject:

It's unfair how much we demonize farting. Some people's stomachs really be hurtin, man.
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JerryMagicKobe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:20 pm    Post subject:

‘Science’ is from Latin (scientia) meaning knowledge. I think ‘god’ was simply a primitive attempt to explain the unknown. Religion monetized that, but god is merely the personification of our ignorance.

The main reason to still ‘believe’ the bible is indoctrination from birth. People stay (under the threat of eternal damnation) because it is more comfortable and much easier to ‘believe’ than learn. Imagine everything known - all of the research and experiments, exploration and studies, the totality of science. Now print all of that information in book form and compile an immense Encyclopedia, ever expanding at an exponential rate. Place that on one side of a balancing scale, a bible on the other. At what point do believers start to wonder if they backed the wrong book?

The battle was never good vs. evil.
It is always knowledge vs. ignorance.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:30 pm    Post subject:

Humans are very curious creatures, but they also crave credibility, as in, knowing the answers to things. It's why people have a lot of placeholder beliefs that paper over complex issues. It's why we have things like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy for children. But just as our memories are living, changing narratives rather than recordings, our propensity to adopt and/or hang onto factually unexamined beliefs often trumps our desire to follow evidence and seek facts.

This is even more prevalent if the belief has emotional significance to us, because study after study indicates even highly educated intelligent people favor their emotions in a battle with a contradicting fact. It's why people believe in stolen elections or are anti vaxx, and no matter what facts you put in front of them, they simply will not budge the belief. And even if you can get agreement on one part of the belief being incorrect, the believer simply retreats to the next roadblock, because the guiding principle is to defend the belief, not examine it.
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LakesGnrLake
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:36 pm    Post subject:

Anyone in here ever had any paranormal experiences before?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:47 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
Anyone in here ever had any paranormal experiences before?

I posted one concerning seeing my mother after she passed.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:49 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Anyone in here ever had any paranormal experiences before?

I posted one concerning seeing my mother after she passed.


Which page was that on. Id like to read it.
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:26 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Anyone in here ever had any paranormal experiences before?

I posted one concerning seeing my mother after she passed.


Which page was that on. Id like to read it.

Page 56.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:48 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Anyone in here ever had any paranormal experiences before?

I posted one concerning seeing my mother after she passed.


Which page was that on. Id like to read it.

Page 56.


Thank you, very interesting stuff.
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:54 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Anyone in here ever had any paranormal experiences before?

I posted one concerning seeing my mother after she passed.


Which page was that on. Id like to read it.

Page 56.


Thank you, very interesting stuff.

Believe me when I say none of it is fabricated or explainable. These events happened.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:18 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Anyone in here ever had any paranormal experiences before?

I posted one concerning seeing my mother after she passed.


Which page was that on. Id like to read it.

Page 56.


Thank you, very interesting stuff.

Believe me when I say none of it is fabricated or explainable. These events happened.


I don't think you fabricated that at all. I do, however, know that it is relatively common for people experiencing acute grief to "see" or "hear" their departed loved one. Sight and hearing are not direct recordings onto some sort of hard disk. They are electrical and chemical signals processed, arranged, and interpreted by various areas of the brain, and are subject to that interpretation or even creation by the brain(note how amputees can often "feel" limbs that no longer exist, and people with high fevers can sometimes see or hear nonexistent things). What we see is not complete, necessarily accurate, and in certain instances (dreams, for example, or under extreme duress, illness, or grief), not even actually there.
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LakesGnrLake
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:25 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Anyone in here ever had any paranormal experiences before?

I posted one concerning seeing my mother after she passed.


Which page was that on. Id like to read it.

Page 56.


Thank you, very interesting stuff.

Believe me when I say none of it is fabricated or explainable. These events happened.


No worries, no doubt at all. I've experienced some wild stuff that I can't explain so it's always interesting to see other stories of the sort.
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LarryCoon
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:53 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
I don't think you fabricated that at all. I do, however, know that it is relatively common for people experiencing acute grief to "see" or "hear" their departed loved one. Sight and hearing are not direct recordings onto some sort of hard disk. They are electrical and chemical signals processed, arranged, and interpreted by various areas of the brain, and are subject to that interpretation or even creation by the brain(note how amputees can often "feel" limbs that no longer exist, and people with high fevers can sometimes see or hear nonexistent things). What we see is not complete, necessarily accurate, and in certain instances (dreams, for example, or under extreme duress, illness, or grief), not even actually there.


It's been proven over and over and over again how unreliable both perception and memory are -- and in fact, how sure someone is of what they saw or what happened actually has no bearing on whether the thing was actually true. But first-person experience -- flawed as it is -- is very, very compelling, and unless someone really understands how easily and how badly it can go wrong, it becomes a hill they're willing to die on.

I like the way Steven Novella puts it: "When someone looks at me and earnestly says, 'I know what I saw,' I am fond of replying, 'No you don’t. You have a distorted and constructed memory of a distorted and constructed perception, both of which are subservient to whatever narrative your brain is operating under.'"
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:59 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Anyone in here ever had any paranormal experiences before?

I posted one concerning seeing my mother after she passed.


Which page was that on. Id like to read it.

Page 56.


Thank you, very interesting stuff.

Believe me when I say none of it is fabricated or explainable. These events happened.


I don't think you fabricated that at all. I do, however, know that it is relatively common for people experiencing acute grief to "see" or "hear" their departed loved one. Sight and hearing are not direct recordings onto some sort of hard disk. They are electrical and chemical signals processed, arranged, and interpreted by various areas of the brain, and are subject to that interpretation or even creation by the brain(note how amputees can often "feel" limbs that no longer exist, and people with high fevers can sometimes see or hear nonexistent things). What we see is not complete, necessarily accurate, and in certain instances (dreams, for example, or under extreme duress, illness, or grief), not even actually there.

So it is explainable. However, I wasn't asleep when my mom passed under the sill. What you say may be the reason I saw what I saw but as LC said that's a hill I'll die on.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


Last edited by jodeke on Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:30 pm    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
I don't think you fabricated that at all. I do, however, know that it is relatively common for people experiencing acute grief to "see" or "hear" their departed loved one. Sight and hearing are not direct recordings onto some sort of hard disk. They are electrical and chemical signals processed, arranged, and interpreted by various areas of the brain, and are subject to that interpretation or even creation by the brain(note how amputees can often "feel" limbs that no longer exist, and people with high fevers can sometimes see or hear nonexistent things). What we see is not complete, necessarily accurate, and in certain instances (dreams, for example, or under extreme duress, illness, or grief), not even actually there.


It's been proven over and over and over again how unreliable both perception and memory are -- and in fact, how sure someone is of what they saw or what happened actually has no bearing on whether the thing was actually true. But first-person experience -- flawed as it is -- is very, very compelling, and unless someone really understands how easily and how badly it can go wrong, it becomes a hill they're willing to die on.

I like the way Steven Novella puts it: "When someone looks at me and earnestly says, 'I know what I saw,' I am fond of replying, 'No you don’t. You have a distorted and constructed memory of a distorted and constructed perception, both of which are subservient to whatever narrative your brain is operating under.'"


Speaking of Novella, The Skeptic’s Guide to the Universe is excellent reading if you want to get a good basic primer on why and how our brains mishandle facts and reality, and how to counter the natural urge to do so.
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:30 pm    Post subject:

When it comes to people who believe they see their loved ones right before they die, or those who believe they saw they loved ones after they passed, the obvious observation is that if this were how things actually worked, why is this experience so rare? Why is not the norm?
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LarryCoon
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:18 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Speaking of Novella, The Skeptic’s Guide to the Universe is excellent reading if you want to get a good basic primer on why and how our brains mishandle facts and reality, and how to counter the natural urge to do so.


Yes -- I've already given away at least a dozen copies to people who needed it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:45 am    Post subject:

Me and friends/family have had experiences in a family members house. Anyone that has stayed there for an extended amount of time always says the same thing and I've experienced it too. Sometimes at night you hear something walking up and down the hallway flushing the toilets every so often(ghost has a bathroom problem ) heard someone talking in another room when I was the only person in the house. One of my friends who was living in one of the rooms would see things get knocked off shelves. I've personally seen a candle fly off the fireplace like someone slapped it. Only reason I don't feel crazy saying it is because other people have had the same experiences here. All I know is that there is lots to life that can't be explained and might even be beyond our comprehension.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:55 am    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
there is lots to life that can't be explained and might even be beyond our comprehension.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:51 am    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
Me and friends/family have had experiences in a family members house. Anyone that has stayed there for an extended amount of time always says the same thing and I've experienced it too. Sometimes at night you hear something walking up and down the hallway flushing the toilets every so often(ghost has a bathroom problem ) heard someone talking in another room when I was the only person in the house. One of my friends who was living in one of the rooms would see things get knocked off shelves. I've personally seen a candle fly off the fireplace like someone slapped it. Only reason I don't feel crazy saying it is because other people have had the same experiences here. All I know is that there is lots to life that can't be explained and might even be beyond our comprehension.


you mean like pizzagate? you nutjob.
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LakesGnrLake
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:36 pm    Post subject:

C M B wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Me and friends/family have had experiences in a family members house. Anyone that has stayed there for an extended amount of time always says the same thing and I've experienced it too. Sometimes at night you hear something walking up and down the hallway flushing the toilets every so often(ghost has a bathroom problem ) heard someone talking in another room when I was the only person in the house. One of my friends who was living in one of the rooms would see things get knocked off shelves. I've personally seen a candle fly off the fireplace like someone slapped it. Only reason I don't feel crazy saying it is because other people have had the same experiences here. All I know is that there is lots to life that can't be explained and might even be beyond our comprehension.


you mean like pizzagate? you nutjob.


You seem to get very upset at opinions you don't understand. I wish you the best.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:15 pm    Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:
It's unfair how much we demonize farting. Some people's stomachs really be hurtin, man.


I watched a Modern Marvels on Ben Franklin's inventions a lil while back (nerd) and Benjamin conceived of the need for a Beanolike food additive way back then. Sthg that could be applied to food before consumption. He wrote the notion down in a letter, so it's a documented brainfart of that Yankee Doodle Dandy. Big Ben obviously liked his starches.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:22 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
Thisn by Gabriel deserved more lauds. Great bassline and concept, but darker than his typical hits, God forbid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0C3DHp36zc

Peter Gabriel is an underrated musician. Really talented and also really smart.

I like "Big Time" and the video for it. It's a funny, sardonic attack of narcissism and our capitalist culture of success, money and vanity.


His vids universally lauded, Sledgehammer is in every top ## music vids lists high up. One of my fave NBC gm intros from 91. Those were great in general. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GKIRaGxqFU
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Cutheon
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:41 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
Cutheon wrote:
It's unfair how much we demonize farting. Some people's stomachs really be hurtin, man.


I watched a Modern Marvels on Ben Franklin's inventions a lil while back (nerd) and Benjamin conceived of the need for a Beanolike food additive way back then. Sthg that could be applied to food before consumption. He wrote the notion down in a letter, so it's a documented brainfart of that Yankee Doodle Dandy. Big Ben obviously liked his starches.


To be totally clear, I have no gastrointestinal issues. I'm a healthy, non-smelly boy. I'm worried about other people he said
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:21 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
C M B wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Me and friends/family have had experiences in a family members house. Anyone that has stayed there for an extended amount of time always says the same thing and I've experienced it too. Sometimes at night you hear something walking up and down the hallway flushing the toilets every so often(ghost has a bathroom problem ) heard someone talking in another room when I was the only person in the house. One of my friends who was living in one of the rooms would see things get knocked off shelves. I've personally seen a candle fly off the fireplace like someone slapped it. Only reason I don't feel crazy saying it is because other people have had the same experiences here. All I know is that there is lots to life that can't be explained and might even be beyond our comprehension.


you mean like pizzagate? you nutjob.


You seem to get very upset at opinions you don't understand. I wish you the best.



That a guy who believes that the ghost of Hamlet's father is yeeting candles across his living room also believes in all of the most braindead conspiracy theories is one of the easiest things to understand.

Wackjob.
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