NBA Season COVID-19 Thread (**No politics or racial/ethnic remarks or personal insults**)
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Outspoken
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:33 pm    Post subject:

C M B wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
C M B wrote:
Outspoken wrote:


I can't say what I really feel on here,


That's interesting because it seems as though feelings are all you're capable of posting on the matter.


No, I could post more, but his is not the place for that. Also, I'm not even trying to go back and forth. He's vaccinated, let's go with that because that isn't the main issue. People should have the right to do what they want, medically, with their body. They should have the right if they wanna put some thing into their body or not, despite what someone may feel. They shouldn't force them to do it or even bully them into doing it.


Who is they? The NBA teams as employer? Because you'd be wrong on that. Since HR was a thing, just about any company can fire your ass for being a f'en drunk or a test positive for drugs. You think you're free to do anything you want? I own/operate a restaurant and you bet your ass I'm going to fire any (bleep) that isn't vaccinated on the spot. Get outta here with that...no you're not free to do what you want on MY dime. MY DIME, sir. Your ilk talks a real big game about your freedoms. That only applies one way right? Well where I come from, I also have the freedom to fire someone's ass for not following protocol.

So let's get to the heart of the matter. Do I or do I not have the freedom to fire you? Easy question and please, for all our sakes, don't be deliberately obtuse with a response. We're going to need more than just "freedoms". There you have it though. Any employer can and will fire you for not following the rules. Yes or no?


The video that you posted refuted his dumbass claims. Further interaction would mean an eventual admission of ignorance, and his tribe cannot survive that ego hit. He might as well be in the shadow realm now.

100% likelihood that he is canvassing other platforms spreading covid disinfo (and covid) to anyone who will give him the time of day.


You sound emotional. Hope you have cooled down; like I said, this isn't the place to have that conversation. I don't spread covid disinformation. I rarely even talk about it, unless you are well versed in the studies, as I don't believe you are.


Last edited by Outspoken on Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Outspoken
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:38 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
C M B wrote:
Outspoken wrote:


I can't say what I really feel on here,


That's interesting because it seems as though feelings are all you're capable of posting on the matter.


No, I could post more, but his is not the place for that. Also, I'm not even trying to go back and forth. He's vaccinated, let's go with that because that isn't the main issue. People should have the right to do what they want, medically, with their body. They should have the right if they wanna put some thing into their body or not, despite what someone may feel. They shouldn't force them to do it or even bully them into doing it.


Who is they? The NBA teams as employer? Because you'd be wrong on that. Since HR was a thing, just about any company can fire your ass for being a f'en drunk or a test positive for drugs. You think you're free to do anything you want? I own/operate a restaurant and you bet your ass I'm going to fire any (bleep) that isn't vaccinated on the spot. Get outta here with that...no you're not free to do what you want on MY dime. MY DIME, sir. Your ilk talks a real big game about your freedoms. That only applies one way right? Well where I come from, I also have the freedom to fire someone's ass for not following protocol.

So let's get to the heart of the matter. Do I or do I not have the freedom to fire you? Easy question and please, for all our sakes, don't be deliberately obtuse with a response. We're going to need more than just "freedoms". There you have it though. Any employer can and will fire you for not following the rules. Yes or no?


I'm talking medically and vaccination shot, then you went on to talk about being drunk and being on drugs. All of what you said has no collation to my comment.
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Nash Vegas
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:59 pm    Post subject:

If you don’t want to get vaccinated because it’s your right, cool. Just don’t complain when your employer fires you, because that’s their right too.
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Outspoken
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:06 pm    Post subject:

Nash Vegas wrote:
If you don’t want to get vaccinated because it’s your right, cool. Just don’t complain when your employer fires you, because that’s their right too.


They can't with me. I own my own business, but if I didn't, I would quit if they tried to force me to get vaccinated. Sucks for those that have to get it, against their will. They just wanna keep a job or some other stipulation.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject:

cal1piggy wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
The harm principle says people should be free to act however they wish unless their actions cause harm to somebody else.


Then stay completely quarantined and you don't have to get vaccinated or you are possibly harming others by willfully becoming a spreader and possible mutation vector.

Just like DUI, the chances are you won't harm someone each time you go for a drive but it significantly changes the probability - so it's not "allowed."


Actually, I am vaccinated and wear a mask at all times. I was speaking for the aforementioned because I hear the unvaccinated and unmasked people talk about their freedoms not knowing that freedom is no longer freedom if it infringes upon someone's else freedoms to be healthy.

I have family members that aren't vaccinated for whatever reasons. That's their right but I made it clear it's my right that I never see them again under our circumstances. I have a mother who is a senior citizen and breast cancer survivor and we are around each other every day. I am not going to risk my health and I'm definitely not going to risk her health by having someone come into contact with me without knowing the status of their health.

When I see someone without a mask out in public, I go to the other side of the street, go to another train car in the subway, etc. Not wearing a mask is a big middle finger to the people around you because you don't know the underlying conditions of your fellow human being and you're indirectly saying you don't give a shhh.


i dont trust the fda or the public health people or big pharma
i think big pharma forced their experimental technologies for the vaccine when there were more well proven options with long term effects pretty well understood.

however, just like you, elderly parents is by far the biggest reason i got vaccinated.

however with delta, i could be asymptomatic and be a carrier.
now i am still quarantining myself to protect my parents, particularly mom who is undergoing immunotherapy for cancer.
now cannot eat in restaurants, go to any crowed places or visit my friends


What are these well proven options for a new disease? And why are vaccinations, that are so well proven, to use your term, suddenly experimental?
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:34 pm    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
If you don’t want to get vaccinated because it’s your right, cool. Just don’t complain when your employer fires you, because that’s their right too.


They can't with me. I own my own business, but if I didn't, I would quit if they tried to force me to get vaccinated. Sucks for those that have to get it, against their will. They just wanna keep a job or some other stipulation.


The problem here is that this principled stand doesn’t have any relationship to the actual facts or any consistency with all the other things you accept. You’re not standing on a principle, but on easily debunked disinformation.
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jonnybravo
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:42 pm    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
C M B wrote:
Outspoken wrote:


I can't say what I really feel on here,


That's interesting because it seems as though feelings are all you're capable of posting on the matter.


No, I could post more, but his is not the place for that. Also, I'm not even trying to go back and forth. He's vaccinated, let's go with that because that isn't the main issue. People should have the right to do what they want, medically, with their body. They should have the right if they wanna put some thing into their body or not, despite what someone may feel. They shouldn't force them to do it or even bully them into doing it.


Who is they? The NBA teams as employer? Because you'd be wrong on that. Since HR was a thing, just about any company can fire your ass for being a f'en drunk or a test positive for drugs. You think you're free to do anything you want? I own/operate a restaurant and you bet your ass I'm going to fire any (bleep) that isn't vaccinated on the spot. Get outta here with that...no you're not free to do what you want on MY dime. MY DIME, sir. Your ilk talks a real big game about your freedoms. That only applies one way right? Well where I come from, I also have the freedom to fire someone's ass for not following protocol.

So let's get to the heart of the matter. Do I or do I not have the freedom to fire you? Easy question and please, for all our sakes, don't be deliberately obtuse with a response. We're going to need more than just "freedoms". There you have it though. Any employer can and will fire you for not following the rules. Yes or no?


I'm talking medically and vaccination shot, then you went on to talk about being drunk and being on drugs. All of what you said has no collation to my comment.


Take that out of the equation happy now? Way to ignore the crux of the point and zero in on the minutiae.

Now do I or do I not as am employer have the "freedom" to terminate you for not following the rules I set? Yes or no. You're categorizing what the NBA is doing as bullying when they're 100% acting in their business' best interest.
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lar9149
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:11 pm    Post subject:

Just to squeeze in some research on COVID treatments, a medicine is under research and shows a good promise as a treatment (vs the other treatments that only have minimal effectiveness)..see below

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-merck-says-research-shows-183245783.html

Merck says research shows its COVID-19 pill works against variants

Merck said earlier this year that a small, mid-stage trial found that after five days of molnupiravir treatment, none of the patients taking various doses of the drug tested positive for infectious virus, while 24% of placebo patients did have detectable levels.

Good start. Phase 3 expect to finish in early November and hopefully ready for approval soon after assuming it continues to give good results.
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slavavov
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:37 pm    Post subject:

lar9149 wrote:
Just to squeeze in some research on COVID treatments, a medicine is under research and shows a good promise as a treatment (vs the other treatments that only have minimal effectiveness)..see below

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-merck-says-research-shows-183245783.html

Merck says research shows its COVID-19 pill works against variants

Merck said earlier this year that a small, mid-stage trial found that after five days of molnupiravir treatment, none of the patients taking various doses of the drug tested positive for infectious virus, while 24% of placebo patients did have detectable levels.

Good start. Phase 3 expect to finish in early November and hopefully ready for approval soon after assuming it continues to give good results.

An effective antiviral in pill form available via prescription for home use for mild or asymptomatic cases would really help us end the pandemic.

I'm guessing such a medication would help turn COVID into just another cold/flu virus, at which point, why shouldn't we ditch our masks and get back to normal (once enough people are vaccinated, of course)?
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lar9149
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:08 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
lar9149 wrote:
Just to squeeze in some research on COVID treatments, a medicine is under research and shows a good promise as a treatment (vs the other treatments that only have minimal effectiveness)..see below

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-merck-says-research-shows-183245783.html

Merck says research shows its COVID-19 pill works against variants

Merck said earlier this year that a small, mid-stage trial found that after five days of molnupiravir treatment, none of the patients taking various doses of the drug tested positive for infectious virus, while 24% of placebo patients did have detectable levels.

Good start. Phase 3 expect to finish in early November and hopefully ready for approval soon after assuming it continues to give good results.

An effective antiviral in pill form available via prescription for home use for mild or asymptomatic cases would really help us end the pandemic.

I'm guessing such a medication would help turn COVID into just another cold/flu virus, at which point, why shouldn't we ditch our masks and get back to normal (once enough people are vaccinated, of course)?


Yes I am excited for sure and yes it sounds like it gives a much higher chance to end the pandemic. Trying to not get my hopes up too much (afterall the above results were only a small mid stage trial, but the fact no virus was found after 5 days of treatment sounds really good to me)..The idea of going back to normal makes it hard to "hold in" the excitement.
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cal1piggy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:14 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
The harm principle says people should be free to act however they wish unless their actions cause harm to somebody else.


Then stay completely quarantined and you don't have to get vaccinated or you are possibly harming others by willfully becoming a spreader and possible mutation vector.

Just like DUI, the chances are you won't harm someone each time you go for a drive but it significantly changes the probability - so it's not "allowed."


Actually, I am vaccinated and wear a mask at all times. I was speaking for the aforementioned because I hear the unvaccinated and unmasked people talk about their freedoms not knowing that freedom is no longer freedom if it infringes upon someone's else freedoms to be healthy.

I have family members that aren't vaccinated for whatever reasons. That's their right but I made it clear it's my right that I never see them again under our circumstances. I have a mother who is a senior citizen and breast cancer survivor and we are around each other every day. I am not going to risk my health and I'm definitely not going to risk her health by having someone come into contact with me without knowing the status of their health.

When I see someone without a mask out in public, I go to the other side of the street, go to another train car in the subway, etc. Not wearing a mask is a big middle finger to the people around you because you don't know the underlying conditions of your fellow human being and you're indirectly saying you don't give a shhh.


i dont trust the fda or the public health people or big pharma
i think big pharma forced their experimental technologies for the vaccine when there were more well proven options with long term effects pretty well understood.

however, just like you, elderly parents is by far the biggest reason i got vaccinated.

however with delta, i could be asymptomatic and be a carrier.
now i am still quarantining myself to protect my parents, particularly mom who is undergoing immunotherapy for cancer.
now cannot eat in restaurants, go to any crowed places or visit my friends


What are these well proven options for a new disease? And why are vaccinations, that are so well proven, to use your term, suddenly experimental?


not suddenly experimental - all these covid vaccines have zero long term safety data. lets not kid outselves, we are ALL in the largest clincial trial in the history of mankind.

what i meant about proven approaches was more proven vaccination approaches. j&j used the adenovirus platform that already had issues with cancer vaccine tests. i believe mrna vaccines have never been used in any vaccine outside trials. this seemed like the perfect situation for big pharma to ramp their experimental technologies through the fda.

none of the us companies worked on a deactivated virus vaccine like those made by chinese companies. we know these have lower efficiacy, but american companies have really good adjuvant technology that could be added to the vaccines to address efficacy.

us companies also did not combine mrna vaccines with adjuvants, that could have reduced the amount of mrna needed for high efficacies. instead the mrna vaccines need to produce an enormous amount of viral proteins that raise concerns for long term side effects.

only novavax worked on a conventional protein vaccine (with high performance adjuvant). unfortunately, novavax is a small company that had trouble ramping production. so their protein vaccine is only going to market now.

smithglaxokine in europe also is developing a protein vaccine. they were delayed due to ~70% efficacy of their first version in older subjects. i think they had to increase the amount of viral protein or adjuvant in each dose.


Last edited by cal1piggy on Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cal1piggy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:22 pm    Post subject:

lar9149 wrote:
slavavov wrote:
lar9149 wrote:
Just to squeeze in some research on COVID treatments, a medicine is under research and shows a good promise as a treatment (vs the other treatments that only have minimal effectiveness)..see below

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-merck-says-research-shows-183245783.html

Merck says research shows its COVID-19 pill works against variants

Merck said earlier this year that a small, mid-stage trial found that after five days of molnupiravir treatment, none of the patients taking various doses of the drug tested positive for infectious virus, while 24% of placebo patients did have detectable levels.

Good start. Phase 3 expect to finish in early November and hopefully ready for approval soon after assuming it continues to give good results.

An effective antiviral in pill form available via prescription for home use for mild or asymptomatic cases would really help us end the pandemic.

I'm guessing such a medication would help turn COVID into just another cold/flu virus, at which point, why shouldn't we ditch our masks and get back to normal (once enough people are vaccinated, of course)?


Yes I am excited for sure and yes it sounds like it gives a much higher chance to end the pandemic. Trying to not get my hopes up too much (afterall the above results were only a small mid stage trial, but the fact no virus was found after 5 days of treatment sounds really good to me)..The idea of going back to normal makes it hard to "hold in" the excitement.


lar, this does sound good.
with vaccines targeting the spike protein for cell entry and this drug targeting an enzyme for viral replication, it could make it really hard for the virus to adapt.
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av3773
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:44 am    Post subject:

Well if you believe that’s the case, do you mind telling me about your qualifications? Are you an MD? PhD in virology perhaps? Do you work in biomedical research such as vaccine development or perhaps an Epidemiologist? Because if you aren’t any of these things or closely related things….it’s pretty much impossible for you to be particularly well informed on this topic, because you wouldn’t have either the training or professional experience. I like cars, and I know some things about how to maintain them and definitely use YouTube to better understand things, but that in no way equates with me being as competent as a mechanic who has trained and spent countless hours of experience working across a wide variety of vehicles.

Outspoken wrote:
av3773 wrote:
That's probably best, because it's pretty clear this isn't a topic (infectious disease and control) you understand particularly well.

Outspoken wrote:
Medical segregation. I don't agree, but I get it.. The only thing is people vaccinated still can get Covid and has. The Vax is said to prevent people from dying, so there is no reason to keep them apart from those that don't have it. Also, Covid has a survival rate of 99.3, that they don't ever promote. Because if they did, in my mind, it would sway people away from getting the vaccine. It's also known or easy to find that they have Inflated the number of infected and deaths. The medical professionals that come out and talk about it, they are getting deleting. Then you have the government and businesses still promoting fast food eating, cigarette smoking, and alcohol drinking, and people still doing it, when health should be the focal point. Though those things bring in big money, but If it is truly about people's safety and saving people's life, they would push to not promote those things. Etc... there is also none of those medical segregated stipulations for people that have the flu, that has taken more lives. There seems to be another underlining thing that has them pushing this vaccine so heavy 🤔

I think people could do what they feel is best, all around. Whether it be get the vaccine, don't get the vaccine, medical segregation for those vaccinated from those that are not. Do what they feel like is best. I'm not gonna talk about the topic anymore.


You're wrong, but wish you the best.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:56 pm    Post subject:

cal1piggy wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
The harm principle says people should be free to act however they wish unless their actions cause harm to somebody else.


Then stay completely quarantined and you don't have to get vaccinated or you are possibly harming others by willfully becoming a spreader and possible mutation vector.

Just like DUI, the chances are you won't harm someone each time you go for a drive but it significantly changes the probability - so it's not "allowed."


Actually, I am vaccinated and wear a mask at all times. I was speaking for the aforementioned because I hear the unvaccinated and unmasked people talk about their freedoms not knowing that freedom is no longer freedom if it infringes upon someone's else freedoms to be healthy.

I have family members that aren't vaccinated for whatever reasons. That's their right but I made it clear it's my right that I never see them again under our circumstances. I have a mother who is a senior citizen and breast cancer survivor and we are around each other every day. I am not going to risk my health and I'm definitely not going to risk her health by having someone come into contact with me without knowing the status of their health.

When I see someone without a mask out in public, I go to the other side of the street, go to another train car in the subway, etc. Not wearing a mask is a big middle finger to the people around you because you don't know the underlying conditions of your fellow human being and you're indirectly saying you don't give a shhh.


i dont trust the fda or the public health people or big pharma
i think big pharma forced their experimental technologies for the vaccine when there were more well proven options with long term effects pretty well understood.

however, just like you, elderly parents is by far the biggest reason i got vaccinated.

however with delta, i could be asymptomatic and be a carrier.
now i am still quarantining myself to protect my parents, particularly mom who is undergoing immunotherapy for cancer.
now cannot eat in restaurants, go to any crowed places or visit my friends


What are these well proven options for a new disease? And why are vaccinations, that are so well proven, to use your term, suddenly experimental?


not suddenly experimental - all these covid vaccines have zero long term safety data. lets not kid outselves, we are ALL in the largest clincial trial in the history of mankind.

what i meant about proven approaches was more proven vaccination approaches. j&j used the adenovirus platform that already had issues with cancer vaccine tests. i believe mrna vaccines have never been used in any vaccine outside trials. this seemed like the perfect situation for big pharma to ramp their experimental technologies through the fda.

none of the us companies worked on a deactivated virus vaccine like those made by chinese companies. we know these have lower efficiacy, but american companies have really good adjuvant technology that could be added to the vaccines to address efficacy.

us companies also did not combine mrna vaccines with adjuvants, that could have reduced the amount of mrna needed for high efficacies. instead the mrna vaccines need to produce an enormous amount of viral proteins that raise concerns for long term side effects.

only novavax worked on a conventional protein vaccine (with high performance adjuvant). unfortunately, novavax is a small company that had trouble ramping production. so their protein vaccine is only going to market now.

smithglaxokine in europe also is developing a protein vaccine. they were delayed due to ~70% efficacy of their first version in older subjects. i think they had to increase the amount of viral protein or adjuvant in each dose.


Without trying to get too deeply into the obfuscational weeds, a few thoughts:

No medicine is in use outside of trials until it is, so basically you could argue against any new vaccine or drug this way. There have been extensive trials of the tech before using it for this purpose, and intense, rigorous trials for this particular application, by multiple developers. All steps required to achieve standard approval have been met. We are not the trial group, we are the group after the trial groups. Long term effects are not fully known (nor could they be unless we have long term use), although experience with vaccines indicates the effects are almost all known within the first few months. Not to mention that the long term effects of Covid aren't known either, but we do know the short term effects and the catastrophic effect being foisted on us by the unvaccinated.
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cal1piggy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:53 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
The harm principle says people should be free to act however they wish unless their actions cause harm to somebody else.


Then stay completely quarantined and you don't have to get vaccinated or you are possibly harming others by willfully becoming a spreader and possible mutation vector.

Just like DUI, the chances are you won't harm someone each time you go for a drive but it significantly changes the probability - so it's not "allowed."


Actually, I am vaccinated and wear a mask at all times. I was speaking for the aforementioned because I hear the unvaccinated and unmasked people talk about their freedoms not knowing that freedom is no longer freedom if it infringes upon someone's else freedoms to be healthy.

I have family members that aren't vaccinated for whatever reasons. That's their right but I made it clear it's my right that I never see them again under our circumstances. I have a mother who is a senior citizen and breast cancer survivor and we are around each other every day. I am not going to risk my health and I'm definitely not going to risk her health by having someone come into contact with me without knowing the status of their health.

When I see someone without a mask out in public, I go to the other side of the street, go to another train car in the subway, etc. Not wearing a mask is a big middle finger to the people around you because you don't know the underlying conditions of your fellow human being and you're indirectly saying you don't give a shhh.


i dont trust the fda or the public health people or big pharma
i think big pharma forced their experimental technologies for the vaccine when there were more well proven options with long term effects pretty well understood.

however, just like you, elderly parents is by far the biggest reason i got vaccinated.

however with delta, i could be asymptomatic and be a carrier.
now i am still quarantining myself to protect my parents, particularly mom who is undergoing immunotherapy for cancer.
now cannot eat in restaurants, go to any crowed places or visit my friends


What are these well proven options for a new disease? And why are vaccinations, that are so well proven, to use your term, suddenly experimental?


not suddenly experimental - all these covid vaccines have zero long term safety data. lets not kid outselves, we are ALL in the largest clincial trial in the history of mankind.

what i meant about proven approaches was more proven vaccination approaches. j&j used the adenovirus platform that already had issues with cancer vaccine tests. i believe mrna vaccines have never been used in any vaccine outside trials. this seemed like the perfect situation for big pharma to ramp their experimental technologies through the fda.

none of the us companies worked on a deactivated virus vaccine like those made by chinese companies. we know these have lower efficiacy, but american companies have really good adjuvant technology that could be added to the vaccines to address efficacy.

us companies also did not combine mrna vaccines with adjuvants, that could have reduced the amount of mrna needed for high efficacies. instead the mrna vaccines need to produce an enormous amount of viral proteins that raise concerns for long term side effects.

only novavax worked on a conventional protein vaccine (with high performance adjuvant). unfortunately, novavax is a small company that had trouble ramping production. so their protein vaccine is only going to market now.

smithglaxokine in europe also is developing a protein vaccine. they were delayed due to ~70% efficacy of their first version in older subjects. i think they had to increase the amount of viral protein or adjuvant in each dose.


Without trying to get too deeply into the obfuscational weeds, a few thoughts:

No medicine is in use outside of trials until it is, so basically you could argue against any new vaccine or drug this way. There have been extensive trials of the tech before using it for this purpose, and intense, rigorous trials for this particular application, by multiple developers. All steps required to achieve standard approval have been met. We are not the trial group, we are the group after the trial groups. Long term effects are not fully known (nor could they be unless we have long term use), although experience with vaccines indicates the effects are almost all known within the first few months. Not to mention that the long term effects of Covid aren't known either, but we do know the short term effects and the catastrophic effect being foisted on us by the unvaccinated.


that is absolutely true.

however what is also true is that the pharma companies chose to ramp up their latest research technology instead of older technology vaccines.

deactivated virus vaccines are about as safe and proven as any vaccine. same with protein vaccines. but big pharma chose to use their latest unproven mrna and adenovirus technologies.

adjuvants can substantially reduce the amount of viral protein needed. furthermore, the newer technology adjuvants available to american companies such as the saponin-based adjuvants used in novavax has been used in vaccines such as the shingles vaccine with 4-5 years of general use.

instead we got huge blasts of mrna generating huge blasts of viral spike protein or adenovirus platforms that have had trouble in cancer vaccine work.

so these new technology platforms were ramped through the fda under emergency use approval via covid19 while normal people serve as lab rats without even the ability to sue for damages.

sure we are not the very initial group of 30000 people. we are the second group of lab rats. and there are hundreds of millions or billions of lab rats. hopefully there is no need for a witch hunt 5-10 years from now.

and the BS about efficiacy. fda focuses on the efficacy of any infection due to public health goals. so we are led like a herd to use vaccines that may be much stronger than needed instead of what really matters to an individual, which is effectiveness against severe cases and hospitalization.

remember the pfizer ceo refused to take his own vaccine when it came out.


Last edited by cal1piggy on Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject:

Demonstrably false.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/03/30/fact-check-pfizer-ceo-albert-bourla-received-covid-19-vaccine/7028843002/
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:02 pm    Post subject:

NMLaker wrote:
Demonstrably false.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/03/30/fact-check-pfizer-ceo-albert-bourla-received-covid-19-vaccine/7028843002/


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/pfizers-ceo-hasnt-gotten-his-covid-vaccine-yet-saying-he-doesnt-want-to-cut-in-line.html
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:13 pm    Post subject:

Pfizer's CEO says he didn't want to cut in line and that's why he waited to get the vaccine. It had nothing to do with him not having faith in his company's vaccine. He was fully vaccinated in March of this year.

Pfizer CEO
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject:

32 wrote:
Pfizer's CEO says he didn't want to cut in line and that's why he waited to get the vaccine. It had nothing to do with him not having faith in his company's vaccine. He was fully vaccinated in March of this year.


yes i remembered that and the media attention it garnered.

how noble of him.
he abstained from taking the life saving vaccine after it was tested in tens of thousands of people
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:21 pm    Post subject:

cal1piggy wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
The harm principle says people should be free to act however they wish unless their actions cause harm to somebody else.


Then stay completely quarantined and you don't have to get vaccinated or you are possibly harming others by willfully becoming a spreader and possible mutation vector.

Just like DUI, the chances are you won't harm someone each time you go for a drive but it significantly changes the probability - so it's not "allowed."


Actually, I am vaccinated and wear a mask at all times. I was speaking for the aforementioned because I hear the unvaccinated and unmasked people talk about their freedoms not knowing that freedom is no longer freedom if it infringes upon someone's else freedoms to be healthy.

I have family members that aren't vaccinated for whatever reasons. That's their right but I made it clear it's my right that I never see them again under our circumstances. I have a mother who is a senior citizen and breast cancer survivor and we are around each other every day. I am not going to risk my health and I'm definitely not going to risk her health by having someone come into contact with me without knowing the status of their health.

When I see someone without a mask out in public, I go to the other side of the street, go to another train car in the subway, etc. Not wearing a mask is a big middle finger to the people around you because you don't know the underlying conditions of your fellow human being and you're indirectly saying you don't give a shhh.


i dont trust the fda or the public health people or big pharma
i think big pharma forced their experimental technologies for the vaccine when there were more well proven options with long term effects pretty well understood.

however, just like you, elderly parents is by far the biggest reason i got vaccinated.

however with delta, i could be asymptomatic and be a carrier.
now i am still quarantining myself to protect my parents, particularly mom who is undergoing immunotherapy for cancer.
now cannot eat in restaurants, go to any crowed places or visit my friends


What are these well proven options for a new disease? And why are vaccinations, that are so well proven, to use your term, suddenly experimental?


not suddenly experimental - all these covid vaccines have zero long term safety data. lets not kid outselves, we are ALL in the largest clincial trial in the history of mankind.

what i meant about proven approaches was more proven vaccination approaches. j&j used the adenovirus platform that already had issues with cancer vaccine tests. i believe mrna vaccines have never been used in any vaccine outside trials. this seemed like the perfect situation for big pharma to ramp their experimental technologies through the fda.

none of the us companies worked on a deactivated virus vaccine like those made by chinese companies. we know these have lower efficiacy, but american companies have really good adjuvant technology that could be added to the vaccines to address efficacy.

us companies also did not combine mrna vaccines with adjuvants, that could have reduced the amount of mrna needed for high efficacies. instead the mrna vaccines need to produce an enormous amount of viral proteins that raise concerns for long term side effects.

only novavax worked on a conventional protein vaccine (with high performance adjuvant). unfortunately, novavax is a small company that had trouble ramping production. so their protein vaccine is only going to market now.

smithglaxokine in europe also is developing a protein vaccine. they were delayed due to ~70% efficacy of their first version in older subjects. i think they had to increase the amount of viral protein or adjuvant in each dose.


Without trying to get too deeply into the obfuscational weeds, a few thoughts:

No medicine is in use outside of trials until it is, so basically you could argue against any new vaccine or drug this way. There have been extensive trials of the tech before using it for this purpose, and intense, rigorous trials for this particular application, by multiple developers. All steps required to achieve standard approval have been met. We are not the trial group, we are the group after the trial groups. Long term effects are not fully known (nor could they be unless we have long term use), although experience with vaccines indicates the effects are almost all known within the first few months. Not to mention that the long term effects of Covid aren't known either, but we do know the short term effects and the catastrophic effect being foisted on us by the unvaccinated.


that is absolutely true.

however what is also true is that the pharma companies chose to ramp up their latest research technology instead of older technology vaccines.

deactivated virus vaccines are about as safe and proven as any vaccine. same with protein vaccines. but big pharma chose to use their latest unproven mrna and adenovirus technologies.

adjuvants can substantially reduce the amount of viral protein needed. furthermore, the newer technology adjuvants available to american companies such as the saponin-based adjuvants used in novavax has been used in vaccines such as the shingles vaccine with 4-5 years of general use.

instead we got huge blasts of mrna generating huge blasts of viral spike protein or adenovirus platforms that have had trouble in cancer vaccine work.

so these new technology platforms were ramped through the fda under emergency use approval via covid19 while normal people serve as lab rats without even the ability to sue for damages.

sure we are not the very initial group of 30000 people. we are the second group of lab rats. and there are hundreds of millions or billions of lab rats. hopefully there is no need for a witch hunt 5-10 years from now.

and the BS about efficiacy. fda focuses on the efficacy of any infection due to public health goals. so we are led like a herd to use vaccines that may be much stronger than needed instead of what really matters to an individual, which is effectiveness against severe cases and hospitalization.

remember the pfizer ceo refused to take his own vaccine when it came out.


Stop posting disinfo.
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32
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:23 pm    Post subject:

cal1piggy wrote:
32 wrote:
Pfizer's CEO says he didn't want to cut in line and that's why he waited to get the vaccine. It had nothing to do with him not having faith in his company's vaccine. He was fully vaccinated in March of this year.


yes i remembered that and the media attention it garnered.

how noble of him.
he abstained from taking the life saving vaccine after it was tested in tens of thousands of people


Now that he took the vaccine everything is fine right? No more excuses to get the vaccine.
_________________
Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold.


Last edited by 32 on Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:24 pm    Post subject:

C M B wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
The harm principle says people should be free to act however they wish unless their actions cause harm to somebody else.


Then stay completely quarantined and you don't have to get vaccinated or you are possibly harming others by willfully becoming a spreader and possible mutation vector.

Just like DUI, the chances are you won't harm someone each time you go for a drive but it significantly changes the probability - so it's not "allowed."


Actually, I am vaccinated and wear a mask at all times. I was speaking for the aforementioned because I hear the unvaccinated and unmasked people talk about their freedoms not knowing that freedom is no longer freedom if it infringes upon someone's else freedoms to be healthy.

I have family members that aren't vaccinated for whatever reasons. That's their right but I made it clear it's my right that I never see them again under our circumstances. I have a mother who is a senior citizen and breast cancer survivor and we are around each other every day. I am not going to risk my health and I'm definitely not going to risk her health by having someone come into contact with me without knowing the status of their health.

When I see someone without a mask out in public, I go to the other side of the street, go to another train car in the subway, etc. Not wearing a mask is a big middle finger to the people around you because you don't know the underlying conditions of your fellow human being and you're indirectly saying you don't give a shhh.


i dont trust the fda or the public health people or big pharma
i think big pharma forced their experimental technologies for the vaccine when there were more well proven options with long term effects pretty well understood.

however, just like you, elderly parents is by far the biggest reason i got vaccinated.

however with delta, i could be asymptomatic and be a carrier.
now i am still quarantining myself to protect my parents, particularly mom who is undergoing immunotherapy for cancer.
now cannot eat in restaurants, go to any crowed places or visit my friends


What are these well proven options for a new disease? And why are vaccinations, that are so well proven, to use your term, suddenly experimental?


not suddenly experimental - all these covid vaccines have zero long term safety data. lets not kid outselves, we are ALL in the largest clincial trial in the history of mankind.

what i meant about proven approaches was more proven vaccination approaches. j&j used the adenovirus platform that already had issues with cancer vaccine tests. i believe mrna vaccines have never been used in any vaccine outside trials. this seemed like the perfect situation for big pharma to ramp their experimental technologies through the fda.

none of the us companies worked on a deactivated virus vaccine like those made by chinese companies. we know these have lower efficiacy, but american companies have really good adjuvant technology that could be added to the vaccines to address efficacy.

us companies also did not combine mrna vaccines with adjuvants, that could have reduced the amount of mrna needed for high efficacies. instead the mrna vaccines need to produce an enormous amount of viral proteins that raise concerns for long term side effects.

only novavax worked on a conventional protein vaccine (with high performance adjuvant). unfortunately, novavax is a small company that had trouble ramping production. so their protein vaccine is only going to market now.

smithglaxokine in europe also is developing a protein vaccine. they were delayed due to ~70% efficacy of their first version in older subjects. i think they had to increase the amount of viral protein or adjuvant in each dose.


Without trying to get too deeply into the obfuscational weeds, a few thoughts:

No medicine is in use outside of trials until it is, so basically you could argue against any new vaccine or drug this way. There have been extensive trials of the tech before using it for this purpose, and intense, rigorous trials for this particular application, by multiple developers. All steps required to achieve standard approval have been met. We are not the trial group, we are the group after the trial groups. Long term effects are not fully known (nor could they be unless we have long term use), although experience with vaccines indicates the effects are almost all known within the first few months. Not to mention that the long term effects of Covid aren't known either, but we do know the short term effects and the catastrophic effect being foisted on us by the unvaccinated.


that is absolutely true.

however what is also true is that the pharma companies chose to ramp up their latest research technology instead of older technology vaccines.

deactivated virus vaccines are about as safe and proven as any vaccine. same with protein vaccines. but big pharma chose to use their latest unproven mrna and adenovirus technologies.

adjuvants can substantially reduce the amount of viral protein needed. furthermore, the newer technology adjuvants available to american companies such as the saponin-based adjuvants used in novavax has been used in vaccines such as the shingles vaccine with 4-5 years of general use.

instead we got huge blasts of mrna generating huge blasts of viral spike protein or adenovirus platforms that have had trouble in cancer vaccine work.

so these new technology platforms were ramped through the fda under emergency use approval via covid19 while normal people serve as lab rats without even the ability to sue for damages.

sure we are not the very initial group of 30000 people. we are the second group of lab rats. and there are hundreds of millions or billions of lab rats. hopefully there is no need for a witch hunt 5-10 years from now.

and the BS about efficiacy. fda focuses on the efficacy of any infection due to public health goals. so we are led like a herd to use vaccines that may be much stronger than needed instead of what really matters to an individual, which is effectiveness against severe cases and hospitalization.

remember the pfizer ceo refused to take his own vaccine when it came out.


Stop posting disinfo.


please point out and prove any part of my post is incorrect. i would be happy to retract.

do understand i have talked to numerous medical and biotech people about covid19.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:26 pm    Post subject:

32 wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
32 wrote:
Pfizer's CEO says he didn't want to cut in line and that's why he waited to get the vaccine. It had nothing to do with him not having faith in his company's vaccine. He was fully vaccinated in March of this year.


yes i remembered that and the media attention it garnered.

how noble of him.
he abstained from taking the life saving vaccine after it was tested in tens of thousands of people


Now that he took the vaccine everything is fine right? No more excuses to get the vaccine.


i presume so, as the Short Term problems of the mrna vaccines have been amazingly minimal.

lets hope it stays that way long term.
and that is coming from one lab rat to another lab rat!

actually i had my second dose of pfizer end of aug, 42 days after the 1st shot.
i got the vaccine mostly because i have elderly parents.
if not, i would have waited until the protein vaccine gets proven out early next year.

i willingly took the vaccine because of family, but it does not mean i am not pissed at the fda and big pharma for subjecting the world to unnecessary risks.
god forbid, let there be no long term problems.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:01 pm    Post subject:

cal1piggy wrote:
32 wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
32 wrote:
Pfizer's CEO says he didn't want to cut in line and that's why he waited to get the vaccine. It had nothing to do with him not having faith in his company's vaccine. He was fully vaccinated in March of this year.


yes i remembered that and the media attention it garnered.

how noble of him.
he abstained from taking the life saving vaccine after it was tested in tens of thousands of people


Now that he took the vaccine everything is fine right? No more excuses to get the vaccine.


i presume so, as the Short Term problems of the mrna vaccines have been amazingly minimal.

lets hope it stays that way long term.
and that is coming from one lab rat to another lab rat!

actually i had my second dose of pfizer end of aug, 42 days after the 1st shot.
i got the vaccine mostly because i have elderly parents.
if not, i would have waited until the protein vaccine gets proven out early next year.

i willingly took the vaccine because of family, but it does not mean i am not pissed at the fda and big pharma for subjecting the world to unnecessary risks.
god forbid, let there be no long term problems.


Please stop. You made your point. Dying of COVID is the biggest ultimate risk. The vaccines are safe. Go worry about them in private. Mostly what you've done here is strongly and repeatedly express your opinion with no substantial links to back up your opinion. Unless you're an expert in the field, we don't need you to continue to act as if you are and muddy the waters for anyone who is considering taking the vaccine and could be dissuaded by your assertive opinion masquerading as fact. This is primarily the COVID thread as it relates to the NBA, so lets get back to that and move on. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:12 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:


Please stop. You made your point. Dying of COVID is the biggest ultimate risk. The vaccines are safe. Go worry about them in private. Mostly what you've done here is strongly and repeatedly express your opinion with no substantial links to back up your opinion. Unless you're an expert in the field, we don't need you to continue to act as if you are and muddy the waters for anyone who is considering taking the vaccine and could be dissuaded by your assertive opinion masquerading as fact. This is primarily the COVID thread as it relates to the NBA, so lets get back to that and move on. Thanks.


short term effects of these covid vaccines have been very very minimal.

while i only develop PPE, many of my friends run clinical trials for a living.
this is one of many website for finding clinical trials: https://www.clinicaltrialsandme.com/resources/how-long-do-clinical-trials-take/

as stated for just the phase 3 duration of trials: "The length of study for phase 3 clinical trials is usually 1 to 4 years. This phase involves 300 to 3,000 patients, with tests designed to determine the drug's longer-term effects."

any idiot can see the numbers are much larger and duration is much shorter.
i see no need to say any more.
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