Fizdale isn't a good coach. Never has been. That may be what saves Vogel's job this season. But the truth is this team has had some flashes where they have shown what they are capable of. Here and there you see it. It's the coaches responsibility to find and push the right buttons to keep players motivated and how to maximize the talent available.
Vogel just doesn't seem like he's been able to do it. The team doesn't seem to be fighting for him. That doesn't mean he's the only problem, but no matter what the situation the coach needs to be able to get through to the team. There are too many times this team sleep walks their way into a big game, or comes out flat after half time.
I'm not sure why there is so much consternation about firing the coach....I'm the odds of any former NBA coach or assistant coach doing much worse this season is low....the team would automatically improve by improving the rotations if they don't then we would be the same as we are...coach needs to go
I'm not sure why there is so much consternation about firing the coach....I'm the odds of any former NBA coach or assistant coach doing much worse this season is low....the team would automatically improve by improving the rotations if they don't then we would be the same as we are...coach needs to go
Given a team with purportedly 3 all-stars, anything short of a Conference Finals appearance is sure-fire failure. Now if the FO changes the coach right now then they are fully and 100% accountable for the team's performance - Vogel can no longer share in the blame. So the FO better be very confident that firing Vogel will catapult the team to league Top 4 level, a mere improvement of a few games in the W column will not change their (and the team's) fortunes come season-end.
Vogel can not make Ariza into 25 year old Ariza. He can't make Westbrook into 27 year old MVP Westbrook. Those are the sort of players we need, WITHOUT AD, to get beyond .500
It's one thing if Vogel didn't try to change things up. The guy has tried literally everything from what I've seen. Every single lineup leads back to the same .500 level of play.
In the team's defense, they have never had AD, Bron, WB all healthy and going more than 3 games in a row. If they can get them for 2 months, maybe then you'll see them elevate into .600+ ball.
But right now very hard for me to blame Vogel. Yeah Ariza is cooked. But how does he show the FO that they made a bad choice ? The same way he showed them DeAndre was cooked (But Rambis still don't see that). It's been clear he's got a FO influencing him on what he has to do. They want him to run bigger lineups, while Fizdale and the staff are telling him the opposite. Thas has come to light with the media leaks. There's a divide within the staff and FO on how the team should be playing and what these players are capable of.
The unfortunate thing is when you actually give him halfway decent athletes, he's overacheiving with them. Look at the Wizards. They're under .500 right now. Frank without LBJ/AD had that group playing .500 ball last year. And there wasn't a Bradley Beal for him. there was an Alex Carusshow. This year, when given guys like Stanley, Monk, Reaves, he's shown he can get something out of them. A lot of teams gave up on guys like Monk, Stanley etc.
In the end, Rob/FO built this team with Dwight/DeAndre playing 30 a game, Melo/Ariza playing 30 a game, and Westbrook being a 3rd superstar. Lets all be real. We know none of that (bleep) is true. The FO really overvalued what guys like DeAndre, Ariza, Westbrook could do at this point in their careers. And Frank's the one who will pay for it.
If you don’t think this lost was primarily on Vogel you weren’t paying attention. Ariza alone was an anchor to this team’s hopes at making a comeback. I knew not to take Vogel serious when he brought Ariza back to start the 3rd. How after the first half he had? Ariza can’t even dribble anymore. I’m convinced he’s purposely hurting this team. First Bazemore and Jordan, now Ariza. How do you go from starting guys to realizing late that they don’t belong in the rotation at all?
Vogel can not make Ariza into 25 year old Ariza. He can't make Westbrook into 27 year old MVP Westbrook. Those are the sort of players we need, WITHOUT AD, to get beyond .500
It's one thing if Vogel didn't try to change things up. The guy has tried literally everything from what I've seen. Every single lineup leads back to the same .500 level of play.
In the team's defense, they have never had AD, Bron, WB all healthy and going more than 3 games in a row. If they can get them for 2 months, maybe then you'll see them elevate into .600+ ball.
But right now very hard for me to blame Vogel. Yeah Ariza is cooked. But how does he show the FO that they made a bad choice ? The same way he showed them DeAndre was cooked (But Rambis still don't see that). It's been clear he's got a FO influencing him on what he has to do. They want him to run bigger lineups, while Fizdale and the staff are telling him the opposite. Thas has come to light with the media leaks. There's a divide within the staff and FO on how the team should be playing and what these players are capable of.
The unfortunate thing is when you actually give him halfway decent athletes, he's overacheiving with them. Look at the Wizards. They're under .500 right now. Frank without LBJ/AD had that group playing .500 ball last year. And there wasn't a Bradley Beal for him. there was an Alex Carusshow. This year, when given guys like Stanley, Monk, Reaves, he's shown he can get something out of them. A lot of teams gave up on guys like Monk, Stanley etc.
In the end, Rob/FO built this team with Dwight/DeAndre playing 30 a game, Melo/Ariza playing 30 a game, and Westbrook being a 3rd superstar. Lets all be real. We know none of that (bleep) is true. The FO really overvalued what guys like DeAndre, Ariza, Westbrook could do at this point in their careers. And Frank's the one who will pay for it.
Reportedly, it's way beyond "showing the front office the players aren't good enough." That was how we tried to rationalize Vogel burning valuable minutes this season on terrible players. But the FO has apparently said, you're coaching like it's do-or-die so do whatever you want, including benching Westbrook if need be. Vogel's move? Put garbage out there and make the Heat "adjust" to us.
Vogel right now should be tightening the rotation to 8 players, if it's truly do-or-die.
Lebron
Westbrook
Monk
Johnson
Reaves
Dwight
Bradley
Melo
and then swapping someone out for AD.
Instead, he played 11 last night, including a second shift for Ariza after a disastrous first stint that lost the game. Neither the offensive nor defensive gameplans make sense. The rotations don't make sense.
Even if there's mixed signals or other influences demanding minutes for players (such as minutes for THT to develop him/showcase value), there are tactful ways to manage that and still put players in the best positions to succeed. The coaching staff simply doesn't do that well enough.
I haven't seen Lebron turn to the bench this frequently and with this much annoyance as much as he has this year. To me that's a sign that he knows his group can be doing much better, but the schemes and/or execution are lacking in ways he thinks the staff can help. Instead they're just blankly staring.
I mean what did we expect? Mike Penberthy for Lionel Hollins? Pathetic. It's time to call a spade a spade.
We also laughed at the idea that J Kidd was truly as valuable as the Lakers were portraying him as. how he was so influential across the board. We laughed uncomfortably when he was hired and put behin Vogel. Now he's got the Mavericks of all teams playing strong defense and he's got Porzingis engaged and motivated, Brunson playing the ball of his career.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144461 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:47 am Post subject:
Vogel has always been an average coach, good at building a defense but challenged offensively. We have an average roster and not surprisingly an average won/loss record. Firing Frank won’t improve anything but it could jeopardize a playoff spot. Give him the remainder of the season and then make a decision. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
We also laughed at the idea that J Kidd was truly as valuable as the Lakers were portraying him as. how he was so influential across the board. We laughed uncomfortably when he was hired and put behin Vogel. Now he's got the Mavericks of all teams playing strong defense and he's got Porzingis engaged and motivated, Brunson playing the ball of his career.
That begets even more questions about Frank.
Kidd has the big advantage of a team of hungry guys in their 20s, whereas Vogel is dealing with a bunch of old, satisfied veterans who don't have the lateral movement they used to. .
He’s going to get picked up so fast if we fire him. I’m happy for him because he deserves it. Always felt he did a spectacular job with those Pacer teams and I think he was the perfect fit for us during the bubble ring year.
We need a complete overhaul…Frank is better off coaching a contender.
We also laughed at the idea that J Kidd was truly as valuable as the Lakers were portraying him as. how he was so influential across the board. We laughed uncomfortably when he was hired and put behin Vogel. Now he's got the Mavericks of all teams playing strong defense and he's got Porzingis engaged and motivated, Brunson playing the ball of his career.
That begets even more questions about Frank.
Kidd has the big advantage of a team of hungry guys in their 20s, whereas Vogel is dealing with a bunch of old, satisfied veterans who don't have the lateral movement they used to. .
Carlisle had the same hungry young guys the past few years too.
We also laughed at the idea that J Kidd was truly as valuable as the Lakers were portraying him as. how he was so influential across the board. We laughed uncomfortably when he was hired and put behin Vogel. Now he's got the Mavericks of all teams playing strong defense and he's got Porzingis engaged and motivated, Brunson playing the ball of his career.
That begets even more questions about Frank.
Kidd has the big advantage of a team of hungry guys in their 20s, whereas Vogel is dealing with a bunch of old, satisfied veterans who don't have the lateral movement they used to. .
Carlisle had the same hungry young guys the past few years too.
That's a reasonable point if you are comparing Kidd to Carlisle. Not sure it tells you anything about Kidd vs. Vogel.
Vogel is a great defensive coach. In 11 seasons as a head coach, his teams have been #1 in defense 3 times, so I dubious of the whole line of attack you are attempting here.
FWIW Dave McMenamin is reporting that Vogel is likely to be the Lakers coach for the remainder of the season.. this is really a no shocker considering that we would have either Fizdale or Handy replacing him which would be just as worse if not way worse with them instead of Vogel.
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