| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Are you happy about Vogel becoming our coach? |
| No |
|
12% |
[ 62 ] |
| Yes |
|
54% |
[ 271 ] |
| Neutral |
|
32% |
[ 163 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 496 |
|
| Author |
Message |
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
|
 Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
What do we do here? Do we keep trying to now argue that small ball works? Do we maybe try to revert back to what works?
Kendrick Perkins says Lakers should get back to what was working. I wonder about this, whether deep down Vogel wants this as well.
But you can't really do anything until you move WB. WB makes it impossible to play the way we succeeded playing. He is not a shooter or consistent enough shot maker, and then you add a big guy like Howard in the middle. Very hard to get that spacing.
Old Lebron also needs mismatches and to get spacing.
Defensively hard to get Frank what he needs but at the same time get WB/Bron the spacing they need. Houston made it work a little better than LA has, becasue they completely ignored size all together and went with a lot of 10-15 ppg wing scorers like Gordon, Covington, Tucker, House. We don't have the same depth of wing scorers. Our wing scorers are Monk, Melo, Bradley, THT. They can give you some points, but not at the same level. So you can't have this outscore you mentality either.
I am not at all surprised we lost these road games. It's been our season. We just have no identity or consistency in how we play. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Bron2AD
Star Player
Joined: 01 Jun 2021
Posts: 8979
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | What do we do here? Do we keep trying to now argue that small ball works? Do we maybe try to revert back to what works?
Kendrick Perkins says Lakers should get back to what was working. I wonder about this, whether deep down Vogel wants this as well.
But you can't really do anything until you move WB. WB makes it impossible to play the way we succeeded playing. He is not a shooter or consistent enough shot maker, and then you add a big guy like Howard in the middle. Very hard to get that spacing.
Old Lebron also needs mismatches and to get spacing.
Defensively hard to get Frank what he needs but at the same time get WB/Bron the spacing they need. Houston made it work a little better than LA has, becasue they completely ignored size all together and went with a lot of 10-15 ppg wing scorers like Gordon, Covington, Tucker, House. We don't have the same depth of wing scorers. Our wing scorers are Monk, Melo, Bradley, THT. They can give you some points, but not at the same level. So you can't have this outscore you mentality either.
I am not at all surprised we lost these road games. It's been our season. We just have no identity or consistency in how we play. |
We have identity it’s just not what we want:
Lebron gunning for Kareem’s record
Westbrook building brick houses |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Lebron wants to win, he just made an error. If you think Bron doesn't want a 5th or 6th ring, you're mistaken IMO.
As Pelinka is the one making the transactions, this is on him. They chose the wrong dude, but now they have to find a way out. It's not impossible, it's just about what do you want to do here.
1) John Wall/Houston him. Just let him sit, don't play him.
2) Use assets to move him.
3) Keep trying with WB, but playing smaller, and having to play many guys out of position, basically starting a game 4 on 5 each time in hopes that the big 3 impact outweighs WB's short comings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
petergr
Star Player
Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 1523
Location: kiki
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Lots of fans were delusional in thinking there are many coaches that are better then Mike D'Antoni....it will be the same with Vogel. Thats how you end up commander Byron Scott - Kobe combination who will give 17 win seasons.
Last edited by petergr on Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MJST wrote: | | 2019 wrote: |
AD is hurt and playing terribly this year
|
Under what evidence? |
Having his usual mid-season break. AD has put up numbers with little impact on his team throughout his career.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Lebron wants to win, he just made an error. If you think Bron doesn't want a 5th or 6th ring, you're mistaken IMO.
As Pelinka is the one making the transactions, this is on him. They chose the wrong dude, but now they have to find a way out. It's not impossible, it's just about what do you want to do here.
1) John Wall/Houston him. Just let him sit, don't play him.
2) Use assets to move him.
3) Keep trying with WB, but playing smaller, and having to play many guys out of position, basically starting a game 4 on 5 each time in hopes that the big 3 impact outweighs WB's short comings. |
The problems are much, much deeper than Westbrook. They could have trade for Hield instead or remained as is and things wouldn’t be much different. Lebron can’t carry a team anymore and AD never could. Those are the stars that the organization tied their hopes on.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danzag
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
Posts: 22313
Location: Brazil
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Firing Vogel would be extremely dumb. But I can totally see it happening  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
petergr
Star Player
Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 1523
Location: kiki
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
Firing Frank Vogel...will be a redo of firing MDA. There are not many coaches that are better than Vogel. Commander Scott, Magic and Luke Walton are free agents
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
AD's little impact on the team? The (bleep) takes.
Dec 15th AD's last full game. Lakers defensive rating after this game? 9th in the NBA. The last month of play, they were top 5.
Since then? The Lakers defensive rating in the NBA over the last 4 weeks without AD? 24th in the NBA.
We've fallen to 19th overall.
All these numbers available at NBA.com advanced team stats.
The thing Vogel was best at, we took away from him. We gave him a PG that can't shoot, that can't Rondo QB, that can't do anything for him in terms of his limitations as a head coach on offense. By making this move we forced him to play smaller and smaller to get WB and Bron the spacing they needed. When we did that, we only improved marginally.
For example, from 24th in the NBA, the offense improves to 20th in the NBA during these 4 weeks. However the defense falls to 25th. So whatever little gain (4 spots) you have in offense by going so small you lose that much defense.
AD will help us on defense. Big time. We'll get a little better. The major hole will still be there. No coach can change this. WB has had a ton of coaches in the NBA and they all have faced the same obstacles. Currently, the strategic move is to play small around WB so you get spacing and more cutting. Ok, and what happens when he can't make a shot? What happens to the defense? Rebounds? That is what we're seeing. It was so bad, that Houston who had the best coach ever in league history at playing small and speeding up the game in MDA, even he couldn't figure it out and just gave up at season's end.
The major issue is WB. Contract. Style of play. Etc. All of it. You don't win a title maybe without WB. But I'm very confident we're at least a top 5 West team without WB. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danzag
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
Posts: 22313
Location: Brazil
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | AD's little impact on the team? The (bleep) takes. |
Dude was carrying a massive load defensively before injury. Basically guarding 1-5 every damn possession. If someone says the opposite it's proof they don't know (bleep) about basketball |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lakurluv
Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2010
Posts: 2529
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Frank Vogel...
We're screwed! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mad55557777
Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 23128
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| danzag wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | AD's little impact on the team? The (bleep) takes. |
Dude was carrying a massive load defensively before injury. Basically guarding 1-5 every damn possession. If someone says the opposite it's proof they don't know (bleep) about basketball |
Frank's defense system is build on switching, that's one of the reasons he want Lebron at 5 so they are consistently switching, the issue is that we have bad defenders doing the switching instead of good ones. AD is badly missed now because how bad we are at rebounding. it would be best for Frank to tweak the system a bit. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Laker_Jocker
Star Player
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 2809
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Lebron wants to win, he just made an error. If you think Bron doesn't want a 5th or 6th ring, you're mistaken IMO.
As Pelinka is the one making the transactions, this is on him. They chose the wrong dude, but now they have to find a way out. It's not impossible, it's just about what do you want to do here.
1) John Wall/Houston him. Just let him sit, don't play him.
2) Use assets to move him.
3) Keep trying with WB, but playing smaller, and having to play many guys out of position, basically starting a game 4 on 5 each time in hopes that the big 3 impact outweighs WB's short comings. |
The problems are much, much deeper than Westbrook. They could have trade for Hield instead or remained as is and things wouldn’t be much different. Lebron can’t carry a team anymore and AD never could. Those are the stars that the organization tied their hopes on. |
Of course he wants another ring and I don't necessarily think it was an error even though WB was a far from ideal option because there weren't that many options (standing pat with DJ/KCP/Kuz/Caruso or the Buddy option wasn't going to make a difference for at least this season anyway)
I do think LBJ is smart enough to know that #6 is/was pretty much out of the question at the start of the year. I suppose if he took a minimum deal at age 39 and has some left in the tank, the Lakers might be able to lure enough help to carry him to #6 but that is really unlikely all the way around.
So, realistically, LBJ has this year and next to try for #5. My guess is that LBJ/AD/WB/Mgmt. are all ok if this is just a "practice" year to get it together for one last hurrah next year. Will it work? hell if I know.......but I could see where this was the school of thought and this mess does make sense on that level. As much as I hate WB's game, if they did somehow make the necessary roster balance adjustments in summer (*cough* trade THT *cough* and, FFS please stop playing LBJ and Melo at center!), it is possible to make this work around the 3 stars.
It is worthwhile to mention/note that currently Vogel, WB and LBJ contracts all end after next year (22-23 season) where a complete reboot with only AD is possible if this WB crap doesn't pan out next season. I guess, buckle up Laker fans, there's no exiting this ride..... It going to either begin to work or continue to suck for another 16/17 months..  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | AD's little impact on the team? The (bleep) takes.
Dec 15th AD's last full game. Lakers defensive rating after this game? 9th in the NBA. The last month of play, they were top 5.
Since then? The Lakers defensive rating in the NBA over the last 4 weeks without AD? 24th in the NBA.
We've fallen to 19th overall.
All these numbers available at NBA.com advanced team stats.
The thing Vogel was best at, we took away from him. We gave him a PG that can't shoot, that can't Rondo QB, that can't do anything for him in terms of his limitations as a head coach on offense. By making this move we forced him to play smaller and smaller to get WB and Bron the spacing they needed. When we did that, we only improved marginally.
For example, from 24th in the NBA, the offense improves to 20th in the NBA during these 4 weeks. However the defense falls to 25th. So whatever little gain (4 spots) you have in offense by going so small you lose that much defense.
AD will help us on defense. Big time. We'll get a little better. The major hole will still be there. No coach can change this. WB has had a ton of coaches in the NBA and they all have faced the same obstacles. Currently, the strategic move is to play small around WB so you get spacing and more cutting. Ok, and what happens when he can't make a shot? What happens to the defense? Rebounds? That is what we're seeing. It was so bad, that Houston who had the best coach ever in league history at playing small and speeding up the game in MDA, even he couldn't figure it out and just gave up at season's end.
The major issue is WB. Contract. Style of play. Etc. All of it. You don't win a title maybe without WB. But I'm very confident we're at least a top 5 West team without WB. |
Of course AD makes the team better defensively, he is one of the better defensive bigs in the league. The team was a couple of games over .500 with him and a couple of games under .500 without him and a lower seed for the playoffs whether he is playing or not. He could be the difference between winning 42 games or 44 games.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Without AD, pre-AD trade, 2 years younger Lebron and no AD with the Ingram/Ball + Kuz/KCP guys, were a lottery team that end up winning 37 games.
You add Vogel and AD, you win a championship 16-5, no series even going 7 games. You win at 70% pave in the RS and were the best team in the West.
Troll comments.....
Certainly there's been a change since the title and now. AD hasn't had the same health, and Vogel's lost his defensive players. In the end, you have a decision to make here if you're Jeanie/Rob.
Do you want to go back to a re-build (and you can't really not enough draft picks).? For sure no.
Do you want to max out what you have invested so much in (AD, Bron)? If yes, then get Vogel some defenders again, move on from WB and get back to competing.
Or do you want to wait on the big 3 move? This is what they're doing, but it will take a huge transformation from Westbrook (that we have not seen) to get this to work. AD coming back at the 5 will help our D. We'll get back to being competitive. Win 6 games on 10. Instead of 4-5. But unless WB transforms himself into a defensive leader that makes better plays on offense, the Lakers are stuck hovering at .500
When you make a mistake, it's best to own up to it and correct it. The mistake wasn't AD or Vogel or even Lebron. That big 3 is proven. The big 3 that wasn't proven is the issue. What they need to do is get back to the basics that worked and accept that likely in the Lebron "old Lebron" era there may be no more titles to win unless AD becomes bubble AD again at the right time. But at least you'll be a damn good team, that competes and is a playoff lock. We're not even a playoff lock, and people trying to excuse the Westbrook move. Crazy! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Halflife
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16704
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Outspoken
Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 8450
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| danzag wrote: | | Firing Vogel would be extremely dumb. But I can totally see it happening |
It would be as dumb as to quit a job without some thing else lined up. If they have another coach lined up, then the move doesn't become dumb. It's who they have lined up, if anyone. If they are just gonna fire him and replace him with Fizdale, that would be dumb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Outspoken
Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 8450
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Without AD, pre-AD trade, 2 years younger Lebron and no AD with the Ingram/Ball + Kuz/KCP guys, were a lottery team that end up winning 37 games. |
That's not the proper context and I actually don't know why you keep saying it. Lebron, Ingram, and Lonzo only played 23 games together and they were 15 and 8. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Halflife
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16704
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Outspoken wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Without AD, pre-AD trade, 2 years younger Lebron and no AD with the Ingram/Ball + Kuz/KCP guys, were a lottery team that end up winning 37 games. |
That's not the proper context and I actually don't know why you keep saying it. Lebron, Ingram, and Lonzo only played 23 games together and they were 15 and 8. |
and luke was coach.
_________________
Kobe.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Clw9scopegx/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Outspoken
Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 8450
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Halflife wrote: | | Outspoken wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Without AD, pre-AD trade, 2 years younger Lebron and no AD with the Ingram/Ball + Kuz/KCP guys, were a lottery team that end up winning 37 games. |
That's not the proper context and I actually don't know why you keep saying it. Lebron, Ingram, and Lonzo only played 23 games together and they were 15 and 8. |
and luke was coach. |
Exactly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vasashi17+
Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2019
Posts: 5611
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Laker_Town
Retired Number
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 25604
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Avery Bradley should backup Reaves.
Vogel's late substitution is a sin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blackmamba08
Star Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2015
Posts: 2608
Location: Croatia
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| This is I think first time this season I was fully pissed on Vogel. The sub at the end was disaster. He need to figure out that it does not matter who plays. Its important how they play. Come one man, read the fckn game and make good subs. Its stupid when you try to please your players no matter what. Idiotic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cyberfreak444
Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Nov 2019
Posts: 314
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| blackmamba08 wrote: | | This is I think first time this season I was fully pissed on Vogel. The sub at the end was disaster. He need to figure out that it does not matter who plays. Its important how they play. Come one man, read the fckn game and make good subs. Its stupid when you try to please your players no matter what. Idiotic. |
I completely agree. And he started a lineup with inadequate spacing: russ, avery, ariza, lebron, and dwight. Then he compounded that spacing issue by playing THT in place of ariza. It allowed the best paint protector in the NBA to just camp out in the paint with multiple Jazz defenders cheating off guys into the paint.
His rotation right now makes no sense. Why is Avery the starter no matter what the lineup is? Monk is better than him and playing Avery next to Monk and Russ just makes the Lakers too small. So if only one of the two can start what justification is there for Avery? If the issue is that Vogel wants more defense from his two guard then he should start Reaves (who continues to be criminally underused) over Bradley. And the biggest blunder is that he opts for Ariza over Johnson when the latter is clearly more athletically gifted and actually unlocks the LeBron at the 5 lineups.
In general Monk, Reaves, and Johnson need to play more. While Bradley, THT, Russ, and Ariza need to play less. This undertalented Lakers team doesn’t have the margin of error for the coach to make this many obvious rotation mistakes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Outspoken
Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 8450
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Laker_Town wrote: | Avery Bradley should backup Reaves.
Vogel's late substitution is a sin |
I agree, or atleast let Reaves be the main ball handler for the 2nd unit, not THT. I don't know why he has THT as the point type ball handler for the 2nd unit. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
