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DuncanIdaho
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Joined: 26 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| BadGuy wrote: | | focus wrote: | At their peaks, Djoker, like Nadal, takes Federer. Just matchup is not favorable generally because Nadal and Djoker unique gifts. Federer was the most talented and best to watch, but I enjoyed or enjoy all three a lot. Federer was not out of his physical prime, primes go a lot longer now. The key to me for Federer not being the greatest was the surfaces and rackets changed to be more suited to baseline athleticism and stamina. Less varied. This suited the other two more, and they proved mentally stronger slightly in this environment.
Alcaraz is going to probably outdo even Djokovic at the end (and possibly in a few days). From the highlights, it looks like he is exploring his sheer power at times, and I think we will see that more today and in the final. But Medvedev is smart and quality and we will see what he is going to do different than his recent matches getting steamrolled by Carlos.
I also think Shelton is made for the big stage, and I am curious how on his serve will be today. He could do it today if the fire takes him. But I still think Djoker is 50-50 to take the whole thing. |
Unique gifts? Lol. Nadal and Djoker encouraged a boring style of tennis that was rewarded by the slowing conditions on the courts. Federer at his peak would beat both Nadal and Djoker outside of clay. To say Fed wasn't out of his physical prime as Djokovic started to take over is completely untrue. The same thing will happen to Djokovic as he ages, which I'm looking forward to seeing. How is Djokovic mentally tough? He has had many matches where he fakes injury (like Nadal) or takes timeouts in the middle of the match to go to the locker room and reset his mentally weak ass lol. Djokovic is lucky Medvedev took out Alcaraz, and he is rightfully favored in the final. |
You can dislike Djokovic and Nadal without being ridiculous. Nadal, btw, beat Roger on his best surface in the finals when Roger was 27, hardly out of his prime. And Djokovic has the best tiebreak % of all time, just ahead of Roger (and he's beaten Roger multiple times in grand slams with extremely clutch performances). It's okay to admit all three guys are far and away better than anyone else, and they all have been better than each other at different times. Djokovic's best performances, btw, are on the fastest surfaces (AO being the fastest major for quite some time now). |
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BadGuy
Star Player
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3629
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | focus wrote: | At their peaks, Djoker, like Nadal, takes Federer. Just matchup is not favorable generally because Nadal and Djoker unique gifts. Federer was the most talented and best to watch, but I enjoyed or enjoy all three a lot. Federer was not out of his physical prime, primes go a lot longer now. The key to me for Federer not being the greatest was the surfaces and rackets changed to be more suited to baseline athleticism and stamina. Less varied. This suited the other two more, and they proved mentally stronger slightly in this environment.
Alcaraz is going to probably outdo even Djokovic at the end (and possibly in a few days). From the highlights, it looks like he is exploring his sheer power at times, and I think we will see that more today and in the final. But Medvedev is smart and quality and we will see what he is going to do different than his recent matches getting steamrolled by Carlos.
I also think Shelton is made for the big stage, and I am curious how on his serve will be today. He could do it today if the fire takes him. But I still think Djoker is 50-50 to take the whole thing. |
Unique gifts? Lol. Nadal and Djoker encouraged a boring style of tennis that was rewarded by the slowing conditions on the courts. Federer at his peak would beat both Nadal and Djoker outside of clay. To say Fed wasn't out of his physical prime as Djokovic started to take over is completely untrue. The same thing will happen to Djokovic as he ages, which I'm looking forward to seeing. How is Djokovic mentally tough? He has had many matches where he fakes injury (like Nadal) or takes timeouts in the middle of the match to go to the locker room and reset his mentally weak ass lol. Djokovic is lucky Medvedev took out Alcaraz, and he is rightfully favored in the final. |
You can dislike Djokovic and Nadal without being ridiculous. Nadal, btw, beat Roger on his best surface in the finals when Roger was 27, hardly out of his prime. And Djokovic has the best tiebreak % of all time, just ahead of Roger (and he's beaten Roger multiple times in grand slams with extremely clutch performances). It's okay to admit all three guys are far and away better than anyone else, and they all have been better than each other at different times. Djokovic's best performances, btw, are on the fastest surfaces (AO being the fastest major for quite some time now). |
Nadal has a losing record to Federer outside of clay, so his one fluke win doesn't matter too much. Djoker's "clutch" performances against Federer could also be seen as lucky, which he himself admitted recently when losing to Alcaraz at Wimbledon this year. Nothing you've said makes me believe Djokovic or Nadal would have won consistently against Federer prime vs. prime if you factor all surfaces equally. |
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jodeke
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Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Coco serving for the US Open title. I hope the pressure doesn't get to her.
It didn't Coco won the US OPEN!!!!!
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Last edited by jodeke on Sat Sep 09, 2023 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wilt
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Coco wins!
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Aryna Sabalenka's serve was her undoing. She couldn't get the first serve in.
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America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ChickenStu
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Coco! She just went into wall mode and wasn't missing anything (until the ESPN graphic at 4-1 in the 3rd set jinxed her for 2 shots, ha), and I thought Sabalenka was off all day. Even when she won the first set 6-2, I didn't think she played well. I thought she missed several easy short balls and even a couple of net sitters. That said, Coco's speed was obviously in her head, and she was probably going for too much. It's really difficult to win a major at the very highest level when the match is not on your racket, so to speak, but that's exactly what Coco did today. Major props to her! |
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ChickenStu
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015
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Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| BadGuy wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | focus wrote: | At their peaks, Djoker, like Nadal, takes Federer. Just matchup is not favorable generally because Nadal and Djoker unique gifts. Federer was the most talented and best to watch, but I enjoyed or enjoy all three a lot. Federer was not out of his physical prime, primes go a lot longer now. The key to me for Federer not being the greatest was the surfaces and rackets changed to be more suited to baseline athleticism and stamina. Less varied. This suited the other two more, and they proved mentally stronger slightly in this environment.
Alcaraz is going to probably outdo even Djokovic at the end (and possibly in a few days). From the highlights, it looks like he is exploring his sheer power at times, and I think we will see that more today and in the final. But Medvedev is smart and quality and we will see what he is going to do different than his recent matches getting steamrolled by Carlos.
I also think Shelton is made for the big stage, and I am curious how on his serve will be today. He could do it today if the fire takes him. But I still think Djoker is 50-50 to take the whole thing. |
Unique gifts? Lol. Nadal and Djoker encouraged a boring style of tennis that was rewarded by the slowing conditions on the courts. Federer at his peak would beat both Nadal and Djoker outside of clay. To say Fed wasn't out of his physical prime as Djokovic started to take over is completely untrue. The same thing will happen to Djokovic as he ages, which I'm looking forward to seeing. How is Djokovic mentally tough? He has had many matches where he fakes injury (like Nadal) or takes timeouts in the middle of the match to go to the locker room and reset his mentally weak ass lol. Djokovic is lucky Medvedev took out Alcaraz, and he is rightfully favored in the final. |
You can dislike Djokovic and Nadal without being ridiculous. Nadal, btw, beat Roger on his best surface in the finals when Roger was 27, hardly out of his prime. And Djokovic has the best tiebreak % of all time, just ahead of Roger (and he's beaten Roger multiple times in grand slams with extremely clutch performances). It's okay to admit all three guys are far and away better than anyone else, and they all have been better than each other at different times. Djokovic's best performances, btw, are on the fastest surfaces (AO being the fastest major for quite some time now). |
Nadal has a losing record to Federer outside of clay, so his one fluke win doesn't matter too much. Djoker's "clutch" performances against Federer could also be seen as lucky, which he himself admitted recently when losing to Alcaraz at Wimbledon this year. Nothing you've said makes me believe Djokovic or Nadal would have won consistently against Federer prime vs. prime if you factor all surfaces equally. |
Djokovic has a winning record against both Federer and Nadal, so stop it. And unlike pointing out, say, the Clippers' record against the Lakers in recent years, Djokovic's record is extremely relevant, since it's, you know, a 1-on-1 sport (in singles) and since whenever they played, it was almost always in a semifinal or final. Djokovic also has, by far, the best winning % in finals contested against the other two, at 28-19 (59.6%). Nadal is at 27-25 in that stat (51.9%), while Federer lags behind at 16-27 (37.2%).
Federer was great, had flair, and was beautiful to watch. He also has no case for being the GOAT. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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^
Yeah, when comparing head to head records in tennis, I think age means alot.
I'd say that a younger Djokovic would have a winning record over an older Djokovic.
The same for a younger Nadal vs. older Nadal and a younger Federer vs. his older self.
Djokovic and Alcaraz are 2-2 right now. If Djokovic sticks around long enough, Alcaraz is going to have a winning record vs. Djokovic. |
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ChickenStu
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 32222
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | ^
Yeah, when comparing head to head records in tennis, I think age means alot.
I'd say that a younger Djokovic would have a winning record over an older Djokovic.
The same for a younger Nadal vs. older Nadal and a younger Federer vs. his older self.
Djokovic and Alcaraz are 2-2 right now. If Djokovic sticks around long enough, Alcaraz is going to have a winning record vs. Djokovic. |
Yeah, he will, but the name of the game is, what did you accomplish? Your record is what it is. How else do you compare? I don't think pointing out the all-time greats' records against each other is cherrypicking. They all pretty much played against each other in their primes. Alcaraz and Djokovic are obviously unlikely to contest anywhere close to as many matches as Djoker did against Nadal and Federer. But unless Carlos wins 20+ majors, no one is going to consider him in the GOAT conversation anyway. |
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BadGuy
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Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3629
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | focus wrote: | At their peaks, Djoker, like Nadal, takes Federer. Just matchup is not favorable generally because Nadal and Djoker unique gifts. Federer was the most talented and best to watch, but I enjoyed or enjoy all three a lot. Federer was not out of his physical prime, primes go a lot longer now. The key to me for Federer not being the greatest was the surfaces and rackets changed to be more suited to baseline athleticism and stamina. Less varied. This suited the other two more, and they proved mentally stronger slightly in this environment.
Alcaraz is going to probably outdo even Djokovic at the end (and possibly in a few days). From the highlights, it looks like he is exploring his sheer power at times, and I think we will see that more today and in the final. But Medvedev is smart and quality and we will see what he is going to do different than his recent matches getting steamrolled by Carlos.
I also think Shelton is made for the big stage, and I am curious how on his serve will be today. He could do it today if the fire takes him. But I still think Djoker is 50-50 to take the whole thing. |
Unique gifts? Lol. Nadal and Djoker encouraged a boring style of tennis that was rewarded by the slowing conditions on the courts. Federer at his peak would beat both Nadal and Djoker outside of clay. To say Fed wasn't out of his physical prime as Djokovic started to take over is completely untrue. The same thing will happen to Djokovic as he ages, which I'm looking forward to seeing. How is Djokovic mentally tough? He has had many matches where he fakes injury (like Nadal) or takes timeouts in the middle of the match to go to the locker room and reset his mentally weak ass lol. Djokovic is lucky Medvedev took out Alcaraz, and he is rightfully favored in the final. |
You can dislike Djokovic and Nadal without being ridiculous. Nadal, btw, beat Roger on his best surface in the finals when Roger was 27, hardly out of his prime. And Djokovic has the best tiebreak % of all time, just ahead of Roger (and he's beaten Roger multiple times in grand slams with extremely clutch performances). It's okay to admit all three guys are far and away better than anyone else, and they all have been better than each other at different times. Djokovic's best performances, btw, are on the fastest surfaces (AO being the fastest major for quite some time now). |
Nadal has a losing record to Federer outside of clay, so his one fluke win doesn't matter too much. Djoker's "clutch" performances against Federer could also be seen as lucky, which he himself admitted recently when losing to Alcaraz at Wimbledon this year. Nothing you've said makes me believe Djokovic or Nadal would have won consistently against Federer prime vs. prime if you factor all surfaces equally. |
Djokovic has a winning record against both Federer and Nadal, so stop it. And unlike pointing out, say, the Clippers' record against the Lakers in recent years, Djokovic's record is extremely relevant, since it's, you know, a 1-on-1 sport (in singles) and since whenever they played, it was almost always in a semifinal or final. Djokovic also has, by far, the best winning % in finals contested against the other two, at 28-19 (59.6%). Nadal is at 27-25 in that stat (51.9%), while Federer lags behind at 16-27 (37.2%).
Federer was great, had flair, and was beautiful to watch. He also has no case for being the GOAT. |
I never argued Federer was the GOAT; I just said I believe Federer at his best is better than Djokovic or Nadal. Djokovic is the current GOAT, and he will eventually be replaced by someone like Alcaraz.
With all of that said, I'm glad Coco was able to break through and win her first major. She should have a long successful career ahead of her. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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^
Ah well, sure, that case can be made. That's much more of a subjective, "eye test" type of thing. Djokovic had a year there in the 2010's where it felt like he didn't lose a match all season. Nadal at one point was obviously unbeatable on clay and, at the same time, solved Federer at Wimbledon. So I think it's pretty difficult to say who the greatest was "at their very best." The only thing I know for certain is that Nadal is the greatest ever on a certain surface. I'd take Federer on grass, particularly before they slowed the courts and the balls. Even though Djoker hasn't exactly dominated the U.S. Open, I'd still take him on hardcourts, especially since I think the AO is the most "fair" conditions of any Slam, which an earlier post kind of referenced already. |
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focus
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Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 2542
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Coco's defense is spectacular. Sabalenka was destroying the ball, with angle most times and it kept coming back until she made a mistake. What I love about Coco now is her smart shot selection too. Her offense has major growth ahead too, particularly her serve and forehand as evidenced by these last two-three months at times.
There's a chance we see a great rivalry or trivalry between Coco and Swiatek, or them and Sabalenka. I like how all three have gotten quite good in resilience and confidence. Hoping Rybakina, Muchova and Ons find their top levels too. I think Coco and Swiatek have the most talent, variety, and skill so they might separate themselves from Sabalenka unless she starts figuring out how to mix it up a little more. Swiatek is atrocious from the net or even approaching, really needs to work on volleys. Coco is going to stretch everyone, probing to expose weaknesses in shots, angles, depth, a la Djokovic I think with her defense, athleticism and variety. Could be pretty interesting few years coming up. |
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focus
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Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 2542
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | ^
Ah well, sure, that case can be made. That's much more of a subjective, "eye test" type of thing. Djokovic had a year there in the 2010's where it felt like he didn't lose a match all season. Nadal at one point was obviously unbeatable on clay and, at the same time, solved Federer at Wimbledon. So I think it's pretty difficult to say who the greatest was "at their very best." The only thing I know for certain is that Nadal is the greatest ever on a certain surface. I'd take Federer on grass, particularly before they slowed the courts and the balls. Even though Djoker hasn't exactly dominated the U.S. Open, I'd still take him on hardcourts, especially since I think the AO is the most "fair" conditions of any Slam, which an earlier post kind of referenced already. |
Rafa definitely the best on a certain surface, and only thing to bet the house on.
Wonder if men's final will be a classic or a so so or a dud. Both seem pretty on their games, so hope the level is great tomorrow. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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Joined: 29 Mar 2012
Posts: 21596
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Looks like the final is not on ESPN+, us Spectrum users will have to find another way to watch. I’m taking Medvedev today. He got battle tested in that Alcaraz match. |
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jodeke
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Posts: 68092
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Looks like the final is not on ESPN+, us Spectrum users will have to find another way to watch. I’m taking Medvedev today. He got battle tested in that Alcaraz match. |
I found this. Do you have any of these?
2023 Spectrum ESPN Channel List
BillSmart
https://getbillsmart.com › espn-channel-spectrum
ESPN is on Channel 300 for Spectrum customers in Los Angeles, San Diego, and Anaheim. Besides 300, people can watch on 39 in Los Angeles, 29 in San Diego, and ...
Espn News Channel List · Espn Deportes Channel List · Espn On Spectrum In...
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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focus
Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 2542
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Looks like the final is not on ESPN+, us Spectrum users will have to find another way to watch. I’m taking Medvedev today. He got battle tested in that Alcaraz match. |
I think it is if you have ESPN+, but it just probably won't be the main announcers (probably a blessing).
https://www.espn.com/watch/schedule/ |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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Joined: 29 Mar 2012
Posts: 21596
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Looks like the final is not on ESPN+, us Spectrum users will have to find another way to watch. I’m taking Medvedev today. He got battle tested in that Alcaraz match. |
I found this. Do you have any of these?
2023 Spectrum ESPN Channel List
BillSmart
https://getbillsmart.com › espn-channel-spectrum
ESPN is on Channel 300 for Spectrum customers in Los Angeles, San Diego, and Anaheim. Besides 300, people can watch on 39 in Los Angeles, 29 in San Diego, and ...
Espn News Channel List · Espn Deportes Channel List · Espn On Spectrum In... |
Disney is in a contract dispute and has pulled all their networks from spectrum. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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Joined: 29 Mar 2012
Posts: 21596
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Looks like the final is not on ESPN+, us Spectrum users will have to find another way to watch. I’m taking Medvedev today. He got battle tested in that Alcaraz match. |
I think it is if you have ESPN+, but it just probably won't be the main announcers (probably a blessing).
https://www.espn.com/watch/schedule/ |
I hope so. The last matches listed “ESPN/ESPN+” for the broadcast. This one says ESPN only. Luckily, Monday night football is listed as being on ESPN+ so I won’t miss Rogers. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 11:23 am Post subject: |
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I actually think the best player of all time on grass is Sampras not Federer.
On clay for sure Rafa.
On hard, Novak.
Not discounting Federer as a GOAT candidate, he definitely surpasses Sampras overall, but as dominant as Rafa was on clay, Sampras was at wimby for a while. I bet Sampras wishes he played a bit more and worked harder late in his career. He just didn't have the drive after a few years.
They changed the surfaces and balls big time as the years have gone on, which has led to players like Federer (and before him Sampras) not have the same impact as they once would. When Federer developed into a pro, he was working on a game for what the era had asked. Eastern grip, volleys, big serves etc. Novak and Rafa came along a little later and had a bit more advanced technique for baseline exchanges. The fact that they also slowed down the courts and balls over their era made a huge difference. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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Joined: 29 Mar 2012
Posts: 21596
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Looks like the final is not on ESPN+, us Spectrum users will have to find another way to watch. I’m taking Medvedev today. He got battle tested in that Alcaraz match. |
I think it is if you have ESPN+, but it just probably won't be the main announcers (probably a blessing).
https://www.espn.com/watch/schedule/ |
You’re right, it is on the Plus.
Novak off to a quick start up 2 games to 0. |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 68092
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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To much going on today. IS Open and the start of the 2023 football season. My IPTV has it all, US Open and all football games. I'm all over the place.
Joker won 1st set 6 3. I think he'll win the Open.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Joker wins 2nd set tie break 7 5. Up 2 sets to love.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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jodeke
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Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Djokovic won the US Open.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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LakerFan1987
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy nearly had a calendar year grand slam at 36, 12 years after almost doing it the first time. Oldest US Open champion in modern era. |
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