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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 16656
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Inspector Gadget wrote: | Halflife wrote: | all of these trades show that we are nowhere near competing. So best to ride out next year. let the $$$$ come off books, bron will have passed KAJ so that distraction and tunnel vision will be gone. then start rebuild.
next year is not about winning. it's about KAJ. |
I think you would be surprised by the number of fans who wouldn’t be thrilled if next year was about LeBron and him scoring rather then building a roster that can be fun and win games |
bron said this last year wasn't a failure. we know why. There are no surprises. |
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pjiddy Retired Number
Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 29017
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 10:28 am Post subject: |
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AD23 wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | I really hope Pelinka can circle back to a possible Hayward deal this summer.
LAL
Hayward
Plumlee (I'd prefer Oubre, but Plumlee as a backup would be fine)
CHA
Westbrook
2027 1st (at minimum top-4 protection)
It's far from a quick fix, but getting two functional rotation players for a dysfunctional Westbrook including a good NBA starting wing would be a start at rebalancing the roster. |
No way I would give up a pick.
I would focus on the Knicks if we really want to avoid trading picks.
Fournier
Rose
Burks or Noel
That's $40M+ right there. |
What is that trade really doing for you? IMO none of those guys are on the floor in the playoffs except maybe Rose and Noel if they don't get hurt. I'd rather just have Westbrook off the books after next year. |
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Inspector Gadget Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016 Posts: 46492
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 10:31 am Post subject: |
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pjiddy wrote: | I would let some other team give Ayton the max. Didn't blow me away in his contract year and he was in an offense that optimized his opportunities with great spacing and an elite spoonfeeder. |
Ayton as a #2 option can put up 23/11, Booker and CP3 didn’t allow him to function in the post a lot cause they were getting the bulk of the shots and that’s not including Bridges, I would be interested to see how he would do if he didn’t get ignored. |
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Inspector Gadget Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016 Posts: 46492
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Halflife wrote: | Inspector Gadget wrote: | Halflife wrote: | all of these trades show that we are nowhere near competing. So best to ride out next year. let the $$$$ come off books, bron will have passed KAJ so that distraction and tunnel vision will be gone. then start rebuild.
next year is not about winning. it's about KAJ. |
I think you would be surprised by the number of fans who wouldn’t be thrilled if next year was about LeBron and him scoring rather then building a roster that can be fun and win games |
bron said this last year wasn't a failure. we know why. There are no surprises. |
Someone who wants to surpass MJ in championships should never be content with missing the playoffs, if he doesn’t care he can leave. |
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pjiddy Retired Number
Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 29017
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Inspector Gadget wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | I would let some other team give Ayton the max. Didn't blow me away in his contract year and he was in an offense that optimized his opportunities with great spacing and an elite spoonfeeder. |
Ayton as a #2 option can put up 23/11, Booker and CP3 didn’t allow him to function in the post a lot cause they were getting the bulk of the shots and that’s not including Bridges, I would be interested to see how he would do if he didn’t get ignored. |
Ayton was 2nd in attempts on the Suns and who do you think was creating all those opportunities for him? He can get 3 or 4 more attempts in another uniform but his efficiency will go way down. He doesn't create his own looks. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 10:56 am Post subject: |
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pjiddy wrote: | Inspector Gadget wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | I would let some other team give Ayton the max. Didn't blow me away in his contract year and he was in an offense that optimized his opportunities with great spacing and an elite spoonfeeder. |
Ayton as a #2 option can put up 23/11, Booker and CP3 didn’t allow him to function in the post a lot cause they were getting the bulk of the shots and that’s not including Bridges, I would be interested to see how he would do if he didn’t get ignored. |
Ayton was 2nd in attempts on the Suns and who do you think was creating all those opportunities for him? He can get 3 or 4 more attempts in another uniform but his efficiency will go way down. He doesn't create his own looks. |
Yup. If your team is an Ayton-centric offense where you're dumping the ball to him to get to work, welcome to the 1990s.
He's several tiers below Jokic/Embiid. I'm not sure he's in the KAT tier either to be honest. He's better defensively for sure, but not offensively. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 10:56 am Post subject: |
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2019 wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | I really hope Pelinka can circle back to a possible Hayward deal this summer.
LAL
Hayward
Plumlee (I'd prefer Oubre, but Plumlee as a backup would be fine)
CHA
Westbrook
2027 1st (at minimum top-4 protection)
It's far from a quick fix, but getting two functional rotation players for a dysfunctional Westbrook including a good NBA starting wing would be a start at rebalancing the roster. |
Swap Oubre for Plumlee and then it's a deal. My intuition would be to move Hayward to Indy in a operate deal or make it a 3 team where by something like this happens:
CHAR: Westbrook, protected 2027 1st
INDY: Hayward, THT, 2028 swap rights , 3 2nds
LAL: Oubre, Hield, Brogdon
3 high level role players who all fit well on paper and are all in their primes. Brogdon has health issues but when he's active, good 3rd banana and secondary playmaker. Indy get's thei hometown guy to come plug the hole at the 3 while also getting a young prospect to develop who was also Haliburton's college teammate. Char clears bad money and even gets compensated for it. |
Where are the 2nds coming from?
My issue is that Oubre's a space cadet best used off the bench (I'd happily take him over Plumlee, of course) and Hield makes Monk redundant at 3-4 times the price. Can Oubre be trusted to close a playoff game? I do like Brogdon. I wouldn't be against it overall; creative trade. _________________ Under New Management |
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Inspector Gadget Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016 Posts: 46492
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:01 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | Inspector Gadget wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | I would let some other team give Ayton the max. Didn't blow me away in his contract year and he was in an offense that optimized his opportunities with great spacing and an elite spoonfeeder. |
Ayton as a #2 option can put up 23/11, Booker and CP3 didn’t allow him to function in the post a lot cause they were getting the bulk of the shots and that’s not including Bridges, I would be interested to see how he would do if he didn’t get ignored. |
Ayton was 2nd in attempts on the Suns and who do you think was creating all those opportunities for him? He can get 3 or 4 more attempts in another uniform but his efficiency will go way down. He doesn't create his own looks. |
Yup. If your team is an Ayton-centric offense where you're dumping the ball to him to get to work, welcome to the 1990s.
He's several tiers below Jokic/Embiid. I'm not sure he's in the KAT tier either to be honest. He's better defensively for sure, but not offensively. |
believe it or not he’s closer to Embiid then he is to Gobert |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:06 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | Inspector Gadget wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | I would let some other team give Ayton the max. Didn't blow me away in his contract year and he was in an offense that optimized his opportunities with great spacing and an elite spoonfeeder. |
Ayton as a #2 option can put up 23/11, Booker and CP3 didn’t allow him to function in the post a lot cause they were getting the bulk of the shots and that’s not including Bridges, I would be interested to see how he would do if he didn’t get ignored. |
Ayton was 2nd in attempts on the Suns and who do you think was creating all those opportunities for him? He can get 3 or 4 more attempts in another uniform but his efficiency will go way down. He doesn't create his own looks. |
Yup. If your team is an Ayton-centric offense where you're dumping the ball to him to get to work, welcome to the 1990s.
He's several tiers below Jokic/Embiid. I'm not sure he's in the KAT tier either to be honest. He's better defensively for sure, but not offensively. |
I don't think Ayton is soft or anything, but he's almost allergic to drawing fouls compared to the elite offensive bigs (with Embiid as chief foul merchant). Even comparing him to a lower usage roll big like Gobert, Rudy draws fouls at more than 2x the rate of Ayton (8.6 FTAs/per100 to 3.9 FTAs/per100).
It's very strange and I can't see Ayton ever becoming a scoring star without getting to the line a lot more - the efficiency on post-up possessions goes down without a sufficient number of "And1" opportunities. _________________ Under New Management |
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AD23 Star Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2019 Posts: 3069
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:14 am Post subject: |
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pjiddy wrote: | AD23 wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | I really hope Pelinka can circle back to a possible Hayward deal this summer.
LAL
Hayward
Plumlee (I'd prefer Oubre, but Plumlee as a backup would be fine)
CHA
Westbrook
2027 1st (at minimum top-4 protection)
It's far from a quick fix, but getting two functional rotation players for a dysfunctional Westbrook including a good NBA starting wing would be a start at rebalancing the roster. |
No way I would give up a pick.
I would focus on the Knicks if we really want to avoid trading picks.
Fournier
Rose
Burks or Noel
That's $40M+ right there. |
What is that trade really doing for you? IMO none of those guys are on the floor in the playoffs except maybe Rose and Noel if they don't get hurt. I'd rather just have Westbrook off the books after next year. |
Get rid of Russ. Build out the team.
Fournier is the type of shooter you want to help space the floor.
Burks is another shooter and secondary ball handler.
Rose can be a super sub. Noel can be a serviceable big.
Fournie is the only true long term commitment with 2 yrs + 1 team option.
Rose, Burks, and Noel are all technically expiring deals with a team option.
Lakers can easily exercise those guys and have $20-30M in expiring contracts for a trade.
Playing chess. |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:14 am Post subject: |
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There is a reason the Suns don’t want to give Ayton the max. Modern day basketball suggests that your 5 should be the lowest pct of your cap. Wings, guards and then 5s.
I bet deep down the Sixers would love to flip Embiid for an elite Wing.
It’s no longer a center’s game. 2020 Lakers had the appropriate amount of $ allocated to C position. GS gets it too. |
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AD23 Star Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2019 Posts: 3069
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:15 am Post subject: |
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LakerSD wrote: | There is a reason the Suns don’t want to give Ayton the max. Modern day basketball suggests that your 5 should be the lowest pct of your cap. Wings, guards and then 5s.
I bet deep down the Sixers would love to flip Embiid for an elite Wing.
It’s no longer a center’s game. 2020 Lakers had the appropriate amount of $ allocated to C position. GS gets it too. |
Centers are going the way of the Running Back. |
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Hanging from Rafters Star Player
Joined: 31 Jul 2018 Posts: 4294
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | 2019 wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | I really hope Pelinka can circle back to a possible Hayward deal this summer.
LAL
Hayward
Plumlee (I'd prefer Oubre, but Plumlee as a backup would be fine)
CHA
Westbrook
2027 1st (at minimum top-4 protection)
It's far from a quick fix, but getting two functional rotation players for a dysfunctional Westbrook including a good NBA starting wing would be a start at rebalancing the roster. |
Swap Oubre for Plumlee and then it's a deal. My intuition would be to move Hayward to Indy in a operate deal or make it a 3 team where by something like this happens:
CHAR: Westbrook, protected 2027 1st
INDY: Hayward, THT, 2028 swap rights , 3 2nds
LAL: Oubre, Hield, Brogdon
3 high level role players who all fit well on paper and are all in their primes. Brogdon has health issues but when he's active, good 3rd banana and secondary playmaker. Indy get's thei hometown guy to come plug the hole at the 3 while also getting a young prospect to develop who was also Haliburton's college teammate. Char clears bad money and even gets compensated for it. |
Where are the 2nds coming from?
My issue is that Oubre's a space cadet best used off the bench (I'd happily take him over Plumlee, of course) and Hield makes Monk redundant at 3-4 times the price. Can Oubre be trusted to close a playoff game? I do like Brogdon. I wouldn't be against it overall; creative trade. |
I don’t dislike this trade, Brogdon PG, Heild SG, Oubre SF, LBJ PF, AD C; could be a decent starting unit. Nunn + Monk as reserves in the backcourt makes a solid rotation. I would be concerned about reserves at PF and C as well as injury insurance. If I could get Turner instead of Heild then perhaps those concerns could be covered.
I want to add Turner, Oubre, and Brogdon in Westbrook trade with THT then add Cousins and Shroeder for vet min deals. Maybe I’m dreaming but imo the best I can imagine (goes without saying so don’t know why I’m saying it but I’m not a pro GM) is:
Turner (Cousins) Dwight
AD Melo Gabe
LBJ Oubre Johnson
Brogdon Monk Reeves
Nunn (Shroeder) Bradley |
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JUST-MING Retired Number
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 43954
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:47 am Post subject: |
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So, you basically put Lebron on the 25 win Pacers and you expect, what? a play-in berth? |
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JUST-MING Retired Number
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 43954
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:48 am Post subject: |
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LakerSD wrote: | There is a reason the Suns don’t want to give Ayton the max. |
Cheap owner |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 16656
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:54 am Post subject: |
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JUST-MING wrote: | So, you basically put Lebron on the 25 win Pacers and you expect, what? a play-in berth? |
Got any better ideas? _________________ Under New Management |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:56 am Post subject: |
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LakerSD wrote: | There is a reason the Suns don’t want to give Ayton the max. Modern day basketball suggests that your 5 should be the lowest pct of your cap. Wings, guards and then 5s.
I bet deep down the Sixers would love to flip Embiid for an elite Wing.
It’s no longer a center’s game. 2020 Lakers had the appropriate amount of $ allocated to C position. GS gets it too. |
I guess that's why Golden State drafted Wiseman. But I agree with your general point. All else equal, wings are more valuable than centers in the current NBA. It's one thing if you have a center like Embiid or Jokic. Ayton isn't at that level. I'll be surprised if he gets a max contract as a free agent. He's a good center, but good centers aren't max level players in the current NBA. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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King Randle Star Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2014 Posts: 7313
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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LaVar Ball says Zach LaVine is done with Bulls, forecasts he’ll land with Lakers:
This from NBA Central…..I know its LaVar and he runs his mouth. But maybe Zo knows something and told dad. At least that’s what I’m hoping. |
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AD23 Star Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2019 Posts: 3069
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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While Lonzo has a case of Brandon Roys |
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2019 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Dec 2014 Posts: 10786
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | There is a reason the Suns don’t want to give Ayton the max. Modern day basketball suggests that your 5 should be the lowest pct of your cap. Wings, guards and then 5s.
I bet deep down the Sixers would love to flip Embiid for an elite Wing.
It’s no longer a center’s game. 2020 Lakers had the appropriate amount of $ allocated to C position. GS gets it too. |
I guess that's why Golden State drafted Wiseman. But I agree with your general point. All else equal, wings are more valuable than centers in the current NBA. It's one thing if you have a center like Embiid or Jokic. Ayton isn't at that level. I'll be surprised if he gets a max contract as a free agent. He's a good center, but good centers aren't max level players in the current NBA. |
For what it's worth, both Embiid and Jokic were bounced and even Giannis who is essentially the center in Mil is also out. Arguably the 3 best players in the NBA. Not saying they can't win. a title but just saying there are other guys I'd rather build around than Embiid and Jokic. |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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AD23 wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | There is a reason the Suns don’t want to give Ayton the max. Modern day basketball suggests that your 5 should be the lowest pct of your cap. Wings, guards and then 5s.
I bet deep down the Sixers would love to flip Embiid for an elite Wing.
It’s no longer a center’s game. 2020 Lakers had the appropriate amount of $ allocated to C position. GS gets it too. |
Centers are going the way of the Running Back. |
Yessir.
Drafting a RB in early rounds is stupid.
Giving a C max money will put you at a steep incline to reach the chip. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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King Randle wrote: | LaVar Ball says Zach LaVine is done with Bulls, forecasts he’ll land with Lakers:
This from NBA Central…..I know its LaVar and he runs his mouth. But maybe Zo knows something and told dad. At least that’s what I’m hoping. |
It will cost us 2 FRPs (and WBs expiring) though for the Bulls to want to do it. |
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JUST-MING Retired Number
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 43954
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: |
Got any better ideas? |
Build through free agency
2022 Free Agents
28 year old 6'11" C Jusuf Nurkic (#12 rank C) * Klutch discount
29 year old 6'3" G Dennis Schroder (#37 rank PG) ** Minimum contract
28 year old 6'4" G Gary Harris (#49 rank SG) ** Minimum contract
23 year old 6'6" G Jarrett Culver (#110 rank SG) ** Minimum contract
25 year old 6'8" G/F Josh Jackson (#71 rank SF) ** Minimum contract
23 year old 6'6" F Troy Brown Jr (#73 rank SF) ** Minimum contract
25 year old 6'5" F Derrick Jones Jr (#69 rank PF) ** Minimum contract
29 year old 7'0" F/C Frank Kaminsky (#25 rank PF) ** Minimum contract
24 year old 7'0" C Isaiah Hartenstein (#34 rank C) ** Minimum contract
29 year old 6'10" C Andre Drummond (#25 rank C) ** Minimum contract
Something like this
6'3" G Russell Westbrook, 6'3" G Dennis Schroder, 6'2" G Kendrick Nunn
6'4" G/F Talen Horton Tucker, 6'4" G Gary Harris, 6'5" G/F Austin Reaves
6'9" F Lebron James, 6'8" G/F Josh Jackson, 6'6" F Stanley Johnson
6'10" F/C Anthony Davis, 7'0" F/C Frank Kaminsky, 6'9" F/C Wenyen Gabrial
6'11" C Jusuf Nurkic, 6'10" C Andre Drummond, 7'0" C Isaiah Hartenstein
The key will be Talen's development
They have cap space for free agents and draft picks for depth next summer |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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2019 wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | There is a reason the Suns don’t want to give Ayton the max. Modern day basketball suggests that your 5 should be the lowest pct of your cap. Wings, guards and then 5s.
I bet deep down the Sixers would love to flip Embiid for an elite Wing.
It’s no longer a center’s game. 2020 Lakers had the appropriate amount of $ allocated to C position. GS gets it too. |
I guess that's why Golden State drafted Wiseman. But I agree with your general point. All else equal, wings are more valuable than centers in the current NBA. It's one thing if you have a center like Embiid or Jokic. Ayton isn't at that level. I'll be surprised if he gets a max contract as a free agent. He's a good center, but good centers aren't max level players in the current NBA. |
For what it's worth, both Embiid and Jokic were bounced and even Giannis who is essentially the center in Mil is also out. Arguably the 3 best players in the NBA. Not saying they can't win. a title but just saying there are other guys I'd rather build around than Embiid and Jokic. |
Like who? Everyone is going to get bounced, except for the team that wins the title. Doncic and Tatum may get bounced this round. Booker and Paul have been bounced. Ja and Trae have been bounced.
Sometimes people put too much weight on the fleeting results from the playoffs. I'll never say that the playoffs aren't important, but it's a team competition. Did Embiid have a well constructed roster to support him? Did Jokic? I'd be more than happy to have the "problem" of building around them. Jokic was a monster in the playoffs this year, but the Nuggets weren't going anywhere with Murray and Porter out. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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